Western region 1970s

[125_driver]

A little before my time, was wondering in the 70s, how much did locos get off region?For example would a 47 say ever work from, say, paddington right through to Liverpool, or would the 47 always be swapped at Birmingham? 

[MJI]

How 70s?

 

Seen ER 47s heading to South Wales in 79

[MJI]

Swapping at Birmingham

 

Yes they would usually to an electric. But NESW locos seem to stay the same from SW to York.

 

45s 46s 47s

[ikcdab]

Accepting that if you're going a long way "under the wires", then an electric might be put on,  my experience was that generally the same locomotive would have been used throughout. Crew might change though.

Of course what you need is a serviceable loco with crew who have the route knowledge and who are passed for that engine. 

 

[iands]

Somewhere amongst my paraphernalia I have a TOPS extract showing a Gateshead 45 receiving an exam at Plymouth Laira, so yes, some loco's travelled far and wide. 

This example of course is the other way round to what the OP was enquiring about, but no doubt the reverse could have happened, even if not on a regular basis. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by iands
Forgot to add a bit.

[Fat Controller]

32 minutes ago, 125_driver said:

A little before my time, was wondering in the 70s, how much did locos get off region?For example would a 47 say ever work from, say, paddington right through to Liverpool, or would the 47 always be swapped at Birmingham? 

It was commonplace to see Immingham Brush Type 4s at the stabling point in Llanelli at the beginning of the 1970s. They would work the Albion- Milford Haven oil trains, turn and about with Canton/ Landore locos. The also worked pig iron trains to Duport, Llanelli, and steel bar from Normanby Park to Cardiff.

[Neils WRX]

Significant amounts of Inter Regional Freight, eg 40's to Severn Tunnel Jn.

 

Certainly remember seeing Scottish or Gateshead 47's at Bristol on Inter Regional services.

 

Thanks,

 

Neil

[deltic17]

25 minutes ago, MJI said:

Swapping at Birmingham

 

Yes they would usually to an electric. But NESW locos seem to stay the same from SW to York.

 

45s 46s 47s

York.....and up to Newcastle too as Gateshead was responsible for providing a number of locos for such services and was a common starting point for such trains

[Flood]

Until the 1980s many of the Western Region's services were region based. This stemmed from the services provided by the GWR with certain route shortenings due to regional boundries.

In 1976 there were Paddington - Birmingham trains (1 about every 2 hours), Paddington - Worcester/Hereford (1 about every 2 hours), Paddington - Cardiff/Swansea, Paddington - Paignton/Plymouth/Penzance, Paddington - Bristol/Weston-super-Mare and local hauled commuter services to Oxford and Newbury/Westbury which were rush hour only (plus one afternoon service to Oxford).

These locos stayed on their service all the way to their destination and then normally worked straight back.

 

Into the 1960s the Western still ran services like Paddington - Birkenhead on the old GW metals but these were regionally cut back, especially as BR wanted London travellers to the North West to use Euston. Services like Paddington - Liverpool/Manchester didn't start until the sectors were formed in the mid 1980s.

 

As others have said cross-country services were a different matter. Up to about 1970 the Western always changed to a Western Region loco at Bristol for any services to the South West (and vice versa). 1970 onwards a Region's loco would stay on if there was no reversal of the service i.e. the Newcastle - Cardiff would keep the same loco all the way but a Liverpool - Penzance would have an electric to Birmingham, one diesel to Gloucester Central if it called there and then another from Gloucester Central as the train had to reverse (Eastgate closed in 1975 and the locos would have worked through until then). Likewise the Poole services went via Tyseley or Coventry so one diesel from Newcastle to Birmingham (reverse) another from Birmingham to Reading (reverse) and a third from Reading to Poole.

 

Suffice to say that the Western Region was very short of reliable diesels during occasions in the 1970s so "stole" other Regions locos when they could e.g. Bescot ETH 47s being used on air-con services from South Wales or Bristol into and out of Paddington.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Flood

[TravisM]

Ah, the western region in the mid 70’s, I used to spot at Weston-super-Mare, more importantly Worle Junction’s Moor Lane bridge and BTM from about 1973 to about 1977/78 when I moved away.

 

From what I remember, saw lots of BS Class 25’s and Class 31’s but mainly allocated to BR.  Class 37’s were rare though CF allocated ones turned up from time to time on passenger trains, obviously deputising for the normal failed loco’s

 

Class 45’s, both steam heat and ETH versions seem to be used on trains to/from BNS where a electric would take over.  Class 46’s seemed to dominate NE-NW cross countries.  Class 47’s could be from anywhere bar Scotland, FP and SF. 47/0’s were on all sorts of trains and I remember the excitement when the first allocations of 47/0’s to LA in the mid 70’s as most seemed to come from BS.

 

47/3 were very rare birds and 47/4’s seemed to work Paddington trains in between Class 50’s but you have to remember that these memories are nearly 45 years old, so I could be wrong on some things.

Edited October 6, 2020 by jools1959

[The Johnster]

40s showed up at STJ certainly, but not on anything like a daily basis, and I don’t know if I ‘d describe their presence as ‘significant’; probably once a week, but pairs of 20s, and single 31s before they were allox WR, were much more frequent, along with split headcode 37s, mostly from Tinsley.  I have no recollection of 45s or 46s west of Cardiff. 40s and pairs of 20s penetrated as far as Cardiff, but this was a once or twice a year sort of event.  I’ve seen split headcode 37s at Margam, but not frequently. 

[stovepipe]

The motive power reports in the railway monthlies from the early 1970s are full of sightings of 47s etc from far flung depots, well out of region, which don't seem remarkable at all to those familiar with late 70's/early 80s scene, but does show that the regional boundaries were breaking down more generally by then, particularly with block freight services - which had started the trend for long out and back services in the middle 1960s.

 

Similarly Westerns were quite often sighted at the southern end of the MML and WCML in the same period on presumably cross-London freights, and later I can remember seeing several 33s and even a 73 on the GWML between Old Oak and Reading in the later 1970s.

[stovepipe]

3 hours ago, iands said:

Somewhere amongst my paraphernalia I have a TOPS extract showing a Gateshead 45 receiving an exam at Plymouth Laira, so yes, some loco's travelled far and wide.

 

I didn't think Gateshead ever had an allocation of 45s, apart from a brief period in 1961/2, before the new allocation of 46s arrived? Holbeck had plenty of course.

 

21 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 I have no recollection of 45s or 46s west of Cardiff.

 

There were around 20 allocated to Cardiff for a period between 1975-77 ish. I can remember reports of one working a railtour up the valleys somewhere about 1976, but I'm suprised they didn't get co-opted onto freight services west of Cardiff from time to time.

[iands]

2 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

 

I didn't think Gateshead ever had an allocation of 45s, apart from a brief period in 1961/2, before the new allocation of 46s arrived? Holbeck had plenty of course.

You're probably right Stovepipe, it might well be a 46. I was quoting from memory, not necessarily the most reliable thing to do these days (for me at least). I'll see if I can find the info and post on here.

[iands]

Stovepipe is correct, I got my 45s muddled with 46s. The Gateshead loco was 46044, shown at Laira on 27.06.78 in the "Locos on hand OK" list. The 45 was 45009 (a York engine at the time) at Laira (same date) shown in the "Locos out of service" list since 14:00 17.06.78 and estimate OK on 30.06.1978. 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, stovepipe said:

 

I didn't think Gateshead ever had an allocation of 45s, apart from a brief period in 1961/2, before the new allocation of 46s arrived? Holbeck had plenty of course.

 

 

There were around 20 allocated to Cardiff for a period between 1975-77 ish. I can remember reports of one working a railtour up the valleys somewhere about 1976, but I'm suprised they didn't get co-opted onto freight services west of Cardiff from time to time.

AFAIK they were not on the traction knowledge list for drivers from depots down line from Canton; Llantrisant, Margam, Landore, Llanelli, which may have some bearing. Most of the Canton downline freight turns were oil tank trains as far as Llanelli for relief and relieve Llanelli men on the up for back working; there was little ‘out and back with the same loco’ work. Apart from the Waterston-Albion tanks which had double headed 37s, this traffic was worked by 47s or an occasional 52 on a Langley (a gas for Heathrow Airport) job. 

 

The 45/46 were very common in the up direction and on shed at Canton, particularly in the Gloucester direction bit they were very rare on the Hereford route.  You’d also see them on Radyr Quarry line (City Line to you youngsters) working to Radyr, but not further.  They worked into and out of Cardiff Tidal as well. 

[brushman47544]

I think Flood has pretty much hit the nail on the head. Locos were changed when passenger trains reversed or if traction knowledge required a change. Locos running round at major stations was a rarity then. With widespread traction knowledge of 45s, 46s and 47s, they usually worked through irrespective of depot allocation.

 

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

40s showed up at STJ certainly, but not on anything like a daily basis, and I don’t know if I ‘d describe their presence as ‘significant’; probably once a week, 

 

I remember Class 40s being reported in the magazines as regulars on the Mossend - Severn Tunnel Junction freights but presumably they didn’t work every day, with 47s being the norm.

[younGGuns7]

The 1V98 or 99 often saw a named Western region 47 working south through Chesterfield in the mid 70s not sure what the up working would have been because I was/should have been in school

[Rivercider]

The Local Movements and Shunting booklets for the West of England Division dated May 1975 show that there was regular diagrammed work for non WR locos.

In Bristol freight trip No.6 to Avonmouth was a Bescot 47 on Monday, and a Holbeck 45 Tuesday to Friday.

In Exeter freight trip No.3 was a Stratford 47 MSX

In Newton Abbot freight trip No.6 to Exeter Riverside was a Holbeck 45 SX.

These local workings changed frequently, and by December 1977 included the following:-

Bristol trip No. 7 to Avonmouth was a Toton 45 MSX

Bristol trip No. 8 was a Tinsley 45 MO.

Bristol trip No. 14 to Avonmouth was a Stratford 37 SO.

Bristol trip No. 16 to Tytherington was a Gateshead 46 SX

Bristol trip No.20 as required was a Gateshead 46 MO.

I never saw the full loco diagrams, but I believe that some of the Bristol Area freight trip locos had probably worked in overnight on parcels services from Leeds or Newcastle, spent the day on local freight work, then after fueling worked back north the following night,

 

cheers

 

[br2975]

9 hours ago, 125_driver said:

A little before my time, was wondering in the 70s, how much did locos get off region?For example would a 47 say ever work from, say, paddington right through to Liverpool, or would the 47 always be swapped at Birmingham? 

 

I would suggest that it depends upon the diagramming of locos.

.

e.g.

Western Region  Cl.47s could, and did reach the Scottish Region, probably a little more often than theirs reached the WR.

.

From the late 1960s

Cl.20s allox to D16 occasionally made it as far into South Wales as Newport ADJ

.

Cl.31s and Cl.37s allox to the ER were reasonably common on workings as far as Long Dyke, Cardiff, returning on workings such as Radyr - Normanby Park.

.

Cl.40 - South Wales men weren't trained on them, until STJ men in the late 1970s, although Hereford men knew them.

They arrived on Carlisle - STJ freights.

Hereford men worked the WO Ellesmere Port - Hereford tanks forward from Hereford to the Thomas Ness tar plant at Caerphilly (Wernddu) from the late 1970s, sometimes the Cl.40 was replaced by a local Cl.37 at Penarth Curve North, adjacent to Canton depot, but the Cl.40s occasionally worked through to Wernddu.

.

Cl.45s were cleared to Bargoed Pits in the Rhymney Valley, working there on empties from Severn Tunnel Junction, and thence working loads out to Penshaw and/or Middlesbrough.

.

Another turn brought a Cl.45 to Margam on limestone hoppers from Tunstead. During the layover, the Cl.45 ran light from Margam to BP Llandarcy from where it worked loaded 'railcars' (100 ton bogie oil tanks) to Ebbw Vale steel works, returning with the empties.

The Cl.45 then returned north with the empty limestone hoppers.

.

From 1969, with freight reorganisation in South Wales, 'foreign power' (non-WR) should not have worked past Severn Tunnel Junction (mixed freight), Newport East Usk (empty minerals) and Newport ADJ (steel).

But, as they say, the best laid plans of mice and men.

.

Probably the most well known service for bringing foreign power into the WR, South Wales, was the Christmas dated Guide Bridge-Cardiff parcels which started each October and ran until Christmas Eve.

This could produce Cl.24 (D05 allox), Cl.25 (D08, D09 allox) and Cl.40 (D08, D09 allox)

.

In reverse, WR (usually 86A or 87E allox) Cl.47s were diagrammed on Liverpool Street - East Anglia turns during lay overs at Stratford circa 1970.

.

Brian R

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by br2975

[johnw1]

Whilst not stickley Western Region the most unusual off region service move I ever witnessed in the 1970's was on the 4th April 1978 when 33009 left Fawley with a train of empty oil tankers bound for Colwick, a few miles to the east of Nottingham. Class 33’s were common in the mid 1970’s on Fawley – Bromford Bridge (Birmingham) oil trains and one would have expected that 33009 would have been replaced en-route at Washwood Heath by a London Midland Region engine from Saltley. For some reason 33009 was not replaced and sufficient train crew with the relevant traction knowledge and route knowledge were made available for 33009 to continue all the way through to Colwick. On arrival at Colwick it was immediately dispatched light engine back to Birmingham and it is seen here heading west past Nottingham Wilford Road Goods yard. On arrival back in Birmingham it returned to the Southern Region on the 17:21 service from Birmingham New Street to Poole.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/24302437830/

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by johnw1

[nigb55009]

During the 1970s and 80s, WR class 47s worked trains to Ravenhead and Cowley Hill with oil for Pilkingtons glass works. The loco would then head to Springs Branch for fuel before returning the empties to South Wales .The trains were usually from Robeston. It was normal for the loco to be used on a fill in turn during the day.  There was always a chance you`d get a WR named class 47 on these trains. One regular turn was the afternoon Bickershaw Colliery to Partington and return. The loco would be fuelled again before heading for home. Springs Branch crews worked these trains to and from Crewe Gresty Lane, as well as the Partington trip.

[keefer]

I have some Railway Observers and there are more than a few mentions over the years of WR locos working in Scotland, particularly cl.47s (inc. the early namers).

ISTR more so in the East around/from Edinburgh, so possibly nabbed for fill-in turns after a SW-NE service?

[The Stationmaster]

One thing which should always be taken into account - as some of the above information shows - is that 47s were regularly on booked inter-Regional work which also took then well off inter-Regional trains hence they could be found on workings where you didn't expect to see them.  Not a problem if they went further afield as the daily inter-Regional balance would normally make sure that as far as possible numbers of locos on 'foreign' Regions were balanced and that was what mattered, not who actually 'owned' the locos.  Same applied with the 45/46 fleet which also worked across a number of Regions because of their use  on NE/SW trains.

 

1000s (Class 52) worked off the WR mainly, if not exclusively, on stone trains in the 1970s as the size of the fleet declined considerably.

[caradoc]

5 hours ago, keefer said:

I have some Railway Observers and there are more than a few mentions over the years of WR locos working in Scotland, particularly cl.47s (inc. the early namers).

ISTR more so in the East around/from Edinburgh, so possibly nabbed for fill-in turns after a SW-NE service?

 

One of my colleagues in Glasgow Control, sadly no longer with us, took great delight in purloining foreign locos, usually Class 47s, for internal Scottish Region work; Other than complain, there wasn't really much the owning Region could do about it !