Zen & Kung Fu Stay Alives with Zen Blue+, Lenz Standard V2, & Zimo MX618N18

[GWL]

Hi all,

 

Long time no modelling! I'm lucky to have been back at work for a few months, and now have some time to return to the layout. So I have decided to take the plunge into DCC.

Loads of research done here as usual, thanks RMweb! My NCE PowerCab has arrived, confident I've chosen a great controller to learn the ropes with, now just waiting on decoders and a couple of new models.

 

There are so many decoder choices, it's been very intimidating...!!! But after research and for the sake of variety and learning, I've ordered:

• Zen Blue+ 6Pin for my Kernow (DJ) 1361
• Lenz Standard V2 8Pin for a new Hornby 61xx Large Prairie (Great Western)
• Zimo MX618N18 Next18 for a new Bachmann 03 (BR green wasp stripes)

 

I am aiming to fit stay alive's to all the models because A) I want to learn how to deal with the different decoders and B) I'm all about low speed reliability.

My school lessons on capacitance and resistors are dusty memories, so I've shelved learning to make my own Stay Alive's just now and ordered the following off the shelf versions:

• 3x KungFu stay alive (one of each shape)
• 1x Zen Super stay alive

 

My query is this - do all these stay alive's have charging/protection circuitry built in, so they can be used with any of the decoders?

 

I think I’ve worked out how to fit them all but it is based on the assumption that I don’t need to solder up a resistor/diode circuit for any of them.

 

Also any other tips/thoughts/opinions on my purchase choices are more than welcome!

 

Many thanks in advance,
G

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by GWL
Simplified question

[pauliebanger]

The Kung Fu caps definitely have the circuitry for charge management and more importantly, perhaps, voltage regulation. The Zen Super probably does too but I don't use them so I can't say for sure.

 

I use the Kung Fu types a lot, even though I used to make my own supercapacitor packs from components. I've found them easy and convenient to source and fit and they are pretty much bomb proof. Black wire to decoder negative or ground, blue wire to decoder positive, simple as that. Well, it will be if the loco PCBs have solder pads to connect these wires to, especially any with the Next 18 interface.

 

Support from model manufacturers for retro-fitting Stay Alives is patchy, but generally improving with newer designs.

 

Good luck,

 

Paul

[GWL]

Thanks Paul, reassuring to hear I’m barking up the right tree.

 

The Zen Blue+ arrived from DCC Concepts today, fitted into my 1363.

 

BUT... an issue on my length of test track - when I set speed step 1 the loco starts moving quickly for a fraction of a second then immediately slows down to a lovely crawl... it’s like it goes from speed steps 0 > 40 > 1 in a fraction of a second.

 

Any ideas how i solve this? CV2 is set to 0, Accel & Deccel speeds are low at 8. I’m stumped. I’ve been reading about “removing capacitors”, something to do with the decoder thinking its on DC for a moment?  This feels like a solution to a problem i shouldn’t have to deal with in a brand new model with a brand new decoder fitted...

I’ve also turned off DC operation on the decoder. 

One for a new thread for sure, but any thoughts here welcome.

[norman]

Hello GWL

 

I suggest you ask DCC Concepts directly they are always friendly, knowledgeable and helpful. 

Norman

Edited October 8, 2020 by norman
spelling

[pauliebanger]

11 hours ago, GWL said:

Thanks Paul, reassuring to hear I’m barking up the right tree.

 

The Zen Blue+ arrived from DCC Concepts today, fitted into my 1363.

 

BUT... an issue on my length of test track - when I set speed step 1 the loco starts moving quickly for a fraction of a second then immediately slows down to a lovely crawl... it’s like it goes from speed steps 0 > 40 > 1 in a fraction of a second.

 

Any ideas how i solve this? CV2 is set to 0, Accel & Deccel speeds are low at 8. I’m stumped. I’ve been reading about “removing capacitors”, something to do with the decoder thinking its on DC for a moment?  This feels like a solution to a problem i shouldn’t have to deal with in a brand new model with a brand new decoder fitted...

I’ve also turned off DC operation on the decoder. 

One for a new thread for sure, but any thoughts here welcome.

 

'Brand new model' might be the clue here. Many models will greatly benefit from 'running-in' at moderate speed for 1/2 hour in each direction to get all components working smoothly. The initial jerk could simply be the overcoming of 'stiction'.

 

It's always worth getting your models starting and running smoothly before you begin adjusting decoder values.

 

What you describe does not fit the usual 'I think it might be DC' scenario, though it's always good policy to disable analogue when operating solely on DCC. Think of it as a useful facility when you need it, but not required in normal DCC useage.

 

Therefore, changing this in CV29 will do no harm, but I'm not surprised that it has made no difference to your surrent issue.

 

I can't help regards ZEN decoders. 

 

In my experience, no other brand is as good as ZIMO's legendary smooth operation. That's why I always use ZIMO and I'm never disappointed.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

Edited October 8, 2020 by pauliebanger

[grriff]

In my experience you don't necessarily need stay alives. I have a small layout with Peco Setrack with insulfrogs. My Bachmann Prairie, which has sprung centre wheels works fine, even at very low speeds. My Hornby Thomas, no sprung wheels, is terrible and has benefitted from a DCC Concepts stay alive. 

Track and wheel cleanliness is vital plus good wheel contacts. 

[Gordon A]

In the back of my mind I think I was told that if you have fitted stay alive to a loco, on first putting it on the track  you should let it sit on a live DCC track for a couple of minutes before driving it.

Something to do with giving the capacitors in the stay alive to charge?

 

Gordon A

[GWL]

Thanks all for the advice!

 

Norman - Mick from DCC concepts has been helpful in suggesting some CV changes but we haven't managed to solve the lurch yet.

Paul - I ran in the 1361 for a good two hours on DC, and had another 3 hours running in with the decoder today. It hasn't improved things sadly. I suspect it may be something to do with this model...

 

Grriff - yes agreed, I'm hoping that the prairie will not really need one, but the s1361 definitely benefits - I do regularly clean and maintain my track and locos, but I'm looking at it from the perspective that doing both will mean far less chances of the "hand of god" making an appearance! got the kung fu's for £10 per stay alive which I think is good value.

 

My Bachmann 03 and Hornby 61xx have arrived today, looking forward to fitting a Zimo and Lenz into them respectively. I will see how they cope without the stay alive first, then work out the best way to fit to each.

Best,

G

 

[GWL]

Onto the Bachmann 03:

 

What a lovely model it is. Runs super smooth with the Zimo MX618N18.
 

As explained above, I’m fitting stay alives for the added reliability on my shunting layout and generally for the learning experience.

 

Remove the body, unscrew the cab LED contacts, remove the decoder and unscrew the PCB and lo & behold! There are lots of helpful solder pads on the underside!

 

Now... no mention of these tabs in the manual but the PCB labels seem pretty self explanatory.

 

I simply solder my stay alive to the V+ and V- tabs, right...? They’ll be the decoder +/- from the bridge rectifier?

 

Photos attached for reference and info.

 

[GWL]

Some triple checking on Google gave me confidence to proceed. So I soldered up the “long and thin” Kung Fu to the V+ V- pads.

 

 

The top of the cab unclips, giving access to the cab floor around the driver to place the capacitors. You can see the stay alive through the window but I’m reluctant to start cutting away at a brand new purchase... I’ve wrapped it up with black LX tape, as well as the cables feeding through under the floor which helps. The cables follow the pickup the wires under the decoder, there are two plastic pillars either side of the motor for cable management, which keep the wiring back away from the body. Here are some photos of a test fit before soldering.

 

 

It works! Very happy. Thanks Bachmann for making it easy!