Model Railway photography with an smart phone

[LBSC123]

Hi all, 

I'm after some advice for how to take good photos with my smartphone. I've got an Iphone 11, although it's generally very good for taking photos of things I've been somewhat dissatisfied with the shots I've been able to take of the layout. Any tips for how to take better photos would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks.

Will

[PenrithBeacon]

Use a tripod 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0894X7BCR/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fab_TdCFFbSB7WDHM

Edited October 7, 2020 by PenrithBeacon

[AY Mod]

19 minutes ago, LBSC123 said:

I've been somewhat dissatisfied with the shots I've been able to take of the layout.

 

Show us some examples and we can give some targetted advice rather than starting from scratch and covering every angle. There's a lot of advice already in the Photography sub-forum.

[Mick Bonwick]

It shouldn't take you too long to find all that you need here:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/170-photography/

[LBSC123]

36 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Show us some examples and we can give some targetted advice rather than starting from scratch and covering every angle. There's a lot of advice already in the Photography sub-forum.

Here are some examples, I think the problem I’m running into, or at least I think I’m running into, is a limited depth of field with everything outside of a small area being blurred. 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Mick Bonwick said:

It shouldn't take you too long to find all that you need here:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/170-photography/

Thanks, I’ll have a scour through, I did have a look to see if there was a photography section, but obviously not hard enough!

[AY Mod]

7 minutes ago, LBSC123 said:

I think the problem I’m running into, or at least I think I’m running into, is a limited depth of field with everything outside of a small area being blurred

 

That's the nature of the beast and it goes back to understanding the basics of manual control of aperture, exposure and ISO and what each component is and how they relate to each other. With a phone it's likely you are going to have limited control and beyond that you are going into the dark art of image stacking to replicate imagery which looks more like a photograph of the real thing. Initially stick to getting the main subject matter in focus (the van isn't in focus in the first shot whereas the Peckett is in your second), I assume you have touch-screen focussing?

[LBSC123]

28 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

That's the nature of the beast and it goes back to understanding the basics of manual control of aperture, exposure and ISO and what each component is and how they relate to each other. With a phone it's likely you are going to have limited control and beyond that you are going into the dark art of image stacking to replicate imagery which looks more like a photograph of the real thing. Initially stick to getting the main subject matter in focus (the van isn't in focus in the first shot whereas the Peckett is in your second), I assume you have touch-screen focussing?

Thanks Andy. Have a look on the photography section and reading about manual control of aperture and ISO, it seems like there are a few apps that can be purchased that enable you to get manual control of it on the IPhone. 
 

I’ll take onboard the comments about being more careful about making sure the subject Is in focus. The IPhone does have a touch screen focussing but I’ve perhaps not been as diligent on making sure this is in the right place as I should’ve been.

 

I’ve also ordered a tripod, meaning I’ll not have to worry about holding the phone while focussing it at the same time. 

 

 

Thanks a lot for the advice. 

[Barclay]

Every photo I've ever used on RMWeb has been taken with a rather old Nokia Lumia smartphone. I don't fiddle with settings (not sure there are any!) but I do take it without flash and tend to rest the phone on the layout so the slow shutter speed won't cause blurring. I have a decent DSLR but it's so bulky I can't get it into the areas I want so I prefer the 'phone.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Barclay

[MartynJPearson]

There is a sort of triangular relationship between aperture, shutter speed and ISO and they all hinge on the amount of light available.

 

In low light, there are three things the camera will do...

* Use a higher ISO, which results in lower image quality

* Use a longer exposure (shutter speed), which can increase motion blur if you or the camera moves

* Use a wider aperture, which reduces the depth of field

 

What the camera does is probably down to the software, but I'd imagine it would prioritise ISO and shutter speed over aperture as with correct focusing you are still going to get a decent shot with a wider aperture.

 

So, one quick fix might be to put more light on the subject. The tripod will definitely help but the images you have shown are suffering from depth of field blur (due to the aperture and focusing on the wrong point) rather than motion blur.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

All my photo's shown on this site are done with a 6 year old Sony Z1 phone. It is all I use it for. It gives far better pictures than my actual camera. Here are some shots both inside and outside done with it.

Edited October 7, 2020 by cypherman

[The Johnster]

For anything more than information snaps, for 'proper' photos; good quality tripod/mini tripod, good lighting (daylight where you can), never use flash except as fill for silhouette against the light shots.  Download an app that will give you more control and an 11 should be able to replicate SLR performance, but will be much more 'faffy'; carp for action shots.  I use 'DSLR Camera' app which gives manual control of all functions including DOF and a very extensive range of shutter speed and ISO settings (better than my big DSLR).  The 11's wide angle lens can be used for macro work, but DOF will be very restricted.  

 

Comparing the functionality of the iPhone 11 and the big digital Nikon, getting on a bit now, the big camera is far more natural to handle and has very much better ergonomics, and a much better TTL viewfinder.  The phone relies on the screen which is useless in bright sunlight, not that the big camera's is much better in very bright conditions.  The advantage the phone has is that the best camera to take any photograph with is the one you have on you at the time, with the result that I lug the big cameral and all kit with me when I am going out specifically to take photos, have a bag of stuff including mini tripod in my rucksack for the phone, and the phone in my pocket whenever I go out.  The phone is capable of very good snaps in good lighting, and good proper photos but you need time to set up.  It also has the advantage of video, with very steady and effective slo-mo.

 

The phone trumps the big camera for pixels, but this must be set against the phone's much smaller sensor.  Flash is pretty basic on both, but the big camera trumps because I can add on a better flash; but I don't use flash much and it's not a major trump.  Nikkor lenses are very good, but the phone ones are adequate for the quality of my computer monitor, the default way of looking at my images. When I win the lottery, I'll have one of those big Hi-def displays and might notice a difference.

[Nearholmer]

I find the phone pretty limited in the sense of controlability of settings, but it produces results good enough to illustrate things on RMWeb.

 

Don’t be afraid to ‘post process’ though. Clearly (unclearly?) you can’t do anything about focus point or depth of field, but you can do a great deal with areas in shadow, colour-saturation etc, which can help turn a muddy old original into something useful. I just use the software that comes on the phone, not being at all into apps.

 

I do tell the phone camera where to focus And take its meter-reading from, though, and sometimes use the old trick of taking a fix on a point, then moving the field of view before pressing the button.

[DCB]

It looks to me as if it is a lighting issue rather than an iPhone vs camera issue. In my experience the big advantage of my camera, a Nikon Coolpix L27  (£7 off eBay) for model  (Railway) photography  over my smart phone is the timer.  placed solidly on the baseboard or on a tripod that delay kills camera shake and results in a much sharper picture.   The Camera also gets in smaller spaces which often give better views than anything you can get to with a Mk1 eyeball or a smart phone.

[Ouroborus]

Perhaps repeating what everyone else has said, but to get rid of the blur, reduce your aperture (higher f number), which you'll find in your phone's camera settings.

Be warned, things will get darker.

To make them lighter, reduce your shutter speed (the camera shutter stays open for longer), but you'll need to keep it very still

 

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, Ouroborus said:

Perhaps repeating what everyone else has said, but to get rid of the blur, reduce your aperture (higher f number), which you'll find in your phone's camera settings.

Be warned, things will get darker.

To make them lighter, reduce your shutter speed (the camera shutter stays open for longer), but you'll need to keep it very still

 

There is no actual physical aperture control on the iPhone 11, or any other smartphone I know of. Any apparent software control of aperture is relying on image processing to 'fake' depth of field, or more commonly lack of such. An example being the 'portrait' mode on many smartphone cameras.

[spamcan61]

2 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

 In my experience the big advantage of my camera, a Nikon Coolpix L27  (£7 off eBay) for model  (Railway) photography  over my smart phone is the timer.  

Funnily enough I still use one of those at work for assembly instructions/ user manual photography, more than good enough. Heck there are loads of second hand cameras out there for very little money that will do the job better than a smartphone. 

[PenrithBeacon]

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/01/iphone-11-review-iphone-xr-dual-camera-a13-smartphone?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

 

This is the Guardian's review of iPhone 11,says it has a great camera but a bit light on details. I used to have an earlier iPhone I found that it would  focus ok on the most prominent object in the picture and then it would stay focused like that while I moved the phone. OK for static shots in reasonable light but no so much if I  wanted to pan. I found it was best to stick with layouts that had their own lights when at shows.

 

 

[Oldddudders]

The top item on today's page on this site shows an astonishingly sharp iPhone 11 pic, compared with one taken on a very expensive (£5k+) and brand new DSLR. DOF appears not to be an issue. 

 

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/00-new-today.htm

[LBSC123]

Thanks all for the comprehensive replies, I'll have to get back to the layout find some means of improving the lighting and start playing around! For post-image editing, are there any good bits of software to use?

 

Thanks,

Will

[Izzy]

40 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

The top item on today's page on this site shows an astonishingly sharp iPhone 11 pic, compared with one taken on a very expensive (£5k+) and brand new DSLR. DOF appears not to be an issue. 

 

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/00-new-today.htm

The basics are that DOF is related to actual focal length and this is tied to sensor/film dimensions. With their quite small sensors phones and small digicams can produce at wide open apertures greater DOF than even APS-C (half-frame) DSLR’s can manage at minimum apertures, f22/32/45. Go up in size to full frame/medium format/ view cameras and it just gets correspondingly worse. As generally shutter speed is also related to focal length/FOV it’s thus much easier to get sharp shots hand held at quite low rates. Of course it also helps if the AF is on the money...!

 

Izzy

[The Johnster]

I have had iPhones since iPhone 4; the 4, a 6, a 7 and now the 11.  There is no doubt that cameras have been a weak link on Apple phones, as the company seemed to have the view that phones were for making phone calls, accessing the internet, and downloading apps and music.  There seems to have been an attitude that the sort of people who didn't own iPhones and were thus inferior sorts anyway were the ones who took selfies and snaps.  

 

The 11 is different, easily the best phone camera Apple have ever had, though it's performance can be beaten by rival high range phones.  It takes much better photos than The Squeeze's cheap Samsung, and displays them a lot better as well, which is more than can be said for earlier iPhones.  It can be used successfully in a greater range of lighting situations, and in conjunction with apps such as 'DSLR Camera' gives you very extensive 'manual' control.  Much of this is electronically simulated, but the results are more important than the method.  It is not, even with the app, a Single Lens Reflex Camera, and does not have TTL viewfinding; I don't know how the light meter works.  

 

And it's small, a major advantage for modelling photos.  But a phone, any phone, is never going to be as user friendly and ergonomically adept as a camera; it will, in comparison, always be faffy and awkward to set up for the shot, because ultimately it's a telephone with a camera, not a camera, and it's physical design is predicated on being used as phone, not being pointed at a subject and framing it.  A proper camera could be built with phone functions and internet capability which could replicate everything the phone does, but it wouldn't fit in your pocket and would be awkward to use for any purpose other than taking photographs.

 

Smartphones of any sort would have appeared miraculous to anyone from the 1970s, only 50 years ago, and even to anyone from the 90s, which was when mobiles achieved more or less total market penetration.  It is possible now to dispense with your camera, computer, tv, landline phone, mirror, watch, hi-fi with the aid of decent headphones, library (videos, music, and books), and to do this communally within a family or group, all sitting on the settee with headphones on looking at your own individual little screen.  I'm not saying it's desirable, but it's easily possible within an NFC or wi-fi network.  Add VR headsets and the scene is complete; we can now dispense with model railways as well.

[Ian Morgan]

Have you looked at focus stacking? This involves taking a number of photos of the same scene focused at different distances, then using some software to stitch all the in-focus bits together to produce a final result.

 

I have an Android phone (OnePlus 7T) and with the free App OpenCamera, you specify the nearest and furthest points you want to focus on, and the number of photos to take. With the phone on a tripod, or just a clamp, you can shout 'Cheese' to make it take the photos without touching the phone. A similar App is available for iPhone called CameraPixels. It is not free, but is cheap enough.

 

Then I use a free Windows program called CombineZP to create the final photo. Not sure what is available free on a Mac, but there are variously priced packages, probably better quality than CombineZP, such as Helicon Focus.

 

Anyway, here is an image I managed to produce, plus two of the individual images from the 'stack' to show the original depth of focus:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Ian Morgan
re-loaded images

[PenrithBeacon]

Been looking at that app, but only briefly, quite impressive!

[Sir TophamHatt]

Oh the folly of "AI".

Cameras try and be helpful to adjust settings and things for you.

My spy phone (Huawei P30) doesn't do this unless I tell it to specifically, then it'll blue the background slightly making much more pleasing portrait photos.

 

To be fair, I use my SLR less and less and think we're at a tipping point where phones are getting more lenses and taking better and better photos.

[JZ]

All my model railway photo's are taken with a Samsung S8. Not had any issues, good depth of field.