KR Models announce the Consett Iron Ore Wagon

[johndon]

1 hour ago, ColinK said:

Which in turn would mean fewer sales making the project no longer viable.

 

Not necessarily, in my case, for example, the lack of the interior detail means that I won't be buying a rake so, if they don't do it, they've lost sales so it works both ways...

 

John

[RBAGE]

43 minutes ago, johndon said:

 

Not necessarily, in my case, for example, the lack of the interior detail means that I won't be buying a rake so, if they don't do it, they've lost sales so it works both ways...

 

John

Me too.

[Michael Hodgson]

Surely the interior detail is just a load of iron ore?

 

Having said that, the real thing is really heavy - I have some I brought back from a trip down LKAB's mine in Kiruna.

[johndon]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Surely the interior detail is just a load of iron ore?

 

Not when the wagon is empty it isn't...

[Tangoman69]

As I live on the site of the former steel works in Consett, this is a must buy for me, even though I model modern stuff.

The wagons may not be up to the standard of other manufacturers, but in my opinion the price reflects this.

I don’t have the time or inclination to make 9 kits, but would happily tackle detailing these.

 

Karl

[johndon]

2 hours ago, Tangoman69 said:

 

I don’t have the time or inclination to make 9 kits, but would happily tackle detailing these.

 

 

In terms of the internals, if it was simply a case of adding missing detail then I'd agree with you.  My biggest issue with the internals as shown on the EP model, is the slab sided appearance of the internals sides - there should be 4 big rectangular holes in the sides where the iron ore came out when the doors were open, you should be able to see the 'inside' of all 4 doors.

 

Of course, none of the above is relevant if you are modelling a loaded train but, as mentioned, they were empty when they came back down the hill from Consett.

 

John

 

Edited December 26, 2020 by johndon

[stovepipe]

I am surprised by KR Models approach here - the wagons are specific to region and era. The likely customers are people who model the area or remember the works at Tyne Dock and Consett. Region and era specific modellers want accurate details and will buy in rakes of 1 or 2 if details are accurate and correct. Given the rakes are quite short a few extra quid to get the details right opens up a bigger market of these people to my mind. 

 

A generic interior might appeal to the general interest modeller, but how many of them will find their way to KR Models to pre-order and make up the numbers?

 

And then longer term what impression is formed of KR Models? Specialist models but made to a price? Might work for widespread common or garden items maybe, but it seems a strange ethos to enter a crowded market with.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

37 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

I am surprised by KR Models approach here - the wagons are specific to region and era. The likely customers are people who model the area or remember the works at Tyne Dock and Consett. Region and era specific modellers want accurate details and will buy in rakes of 1 or 2 if details are accurate and correct. Given the rakes are quite short a few extra quid to get the details right opens up a bigger market of these people to my mind. 

 

A generic interior might appeal to the general interest modeller, but how many of them will find their way to KR Models to pre-order and make up the numbers?

 

And then longer term what impression is formed of KR Models? Specialist models but made to a price? Might work for widespread common or garden items maybe, but it seems a strange ethos to enter a crowded market with.

 

 

I think your final point could be the biggest problems KR might face in the longer term.  What they finally deliver - be it for locos or this wagon - will serve very much to establish their reputation in the wider marketplace.  As ever the marketplace is very diverse with a wide range of wishes and opinions as this thread has recently shown with some people placing considerable emphasis on correct detail/fully capturing the unique nature of these wagons while another is clearly very price sensitive.

 

All manufacturers/commissioners tread a narrow path between these two extremes and in many respects it depends very much on what they want for their own reputation and how they see their place in the wider competitive environment.  Some of the newercomers - e.g. Accurascale, Kernow, Rails, and Hattons  have gone to various lengths to come down very much on the emphasis on detail with, generally, reasonable prices for what they are offering.  Oxford initially went the other way in terms of detail accuracy and were heartily panned for it but on the other hand their pricing was very keen and their detail accuracy has improved while their prices remain at reasonably affordable levels.

 

But with KR we've yet to see which way they are likely to go;  the Consett wagons aren't cheap, even for what they are in production difficulty terms, while at £150 the Fell is well into the contemporary price range for a loco of that size - for example being only £20 cheaper than a similar size,  comprehensively detailed, model diesel.  i'm sure KR have thought about where they are heading but at the moment the message to potential customers isn't entirely clear.  Equally picking on oddball prototypes of which dreams are made, and which others are probably unlikely to touch, comes with another set of problems because costs might have to be recovered over smaller runs which inevitably pushes up prices.  

 

Overall a difficult set of problems for anyone entering the market but certainly one where reputation can be made or broken in the early days

[spamcan61]

6 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

But with KR we've yet to see which way they are likely to go;  the Consett wagons aren't cheap, even for what they are in production difficulty terms,

I'd say 20 odd quid for an OO bogie wagon is remarkably cheap these days, that won't even buy you a mundane 12T vent van at anything like RRP from Bachmann.

[The Stationmaster]

9 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

I'd say 20 odd quid for an OO bogie wagon is remarkably cheap these days, that won't even buy you a mundane 12T vent van at anything like RRP from Bachmann.

They equate to £24 each.  Compare with the near contemporaneous (in model railway production terms) Accurascale PTA/JTA+JUA pack where the wagons equate to £30 each but come with various etched metal parts, axle motion bogies, and a working flashing tail lamp per 5 set of outer wagons.   Although they have no more than a plain box interior they have considerable exterior detail so obviously a much higher decoration (for some versions) and assembly cost and that inevitably reflects in the selling prce.

 

It then all comes down to how you perceive value for your money allowing too that neither will appeal to all possible buyers.  But it looks to me that you get an awful lot more than 25 per cent's worth of detail and decoration for an extra 25 percent on the retail price of the most expensive way of buying them..

[RBAGE]

From a point of relative ignorance in terms of establishing your market and bringing product to that market, it strikes me that developing a product of low detail might immediately exclude the followers of relative prototypical fidelity, especially a model that appears to include such compromises that prohibit further detailing.

On the other hand, producing a model to the level of detail of, say, an Accurascale cemflo, would surely appeal to a much wider audience.

Price is a big influence in any purchase but if you have decided to go for low cost, low detail you run the risk of alienating a large proportion of the hobby. In my humble opinion, if you follow this course, you should be prepared for disappointment.

[Mark Saunders]

I look forward to seeing this produced especially as it is a new manufacturer, the vast majority will never notice or even know/care what is missing from the interior! 

The Consett hopper has been regarded as too niche for many manufacturers and without KR may never had been produced rtr.
 

Edited December 26, 2020 by Mark Saunders
Auto spell check

[cctransuk]

34 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

..... the vast majority will never notice or even know/care what is missing from the interior!

 

That'll be the 'vast majority' of the market for a model of an obscure wagon, produced in relatively tiny numbers, that only ran in traffic on one route in the northeast of England, I suppose?

 

If KR Models alienate the enthusiasts of that line - the very section of the market that is likely to buy these wagons in multiples of nine models - the 'vast majority' of the remainder of the potential market will be able to hold a group meeting in a telephone kiosk!

 

John Isherwood.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

That'll be the 'vast majority' of the market for a model of an obscure wagon, produced in relatively tiny numbers, that only ran in traffic on one route in the northeast of England, I suppose?

 

If KR Models alienate the enthusiasts of that line - the very section of the market that is likely to buy these wagons in multiples of nine models - the 'vast majority' of the remainder of the potential market will be able to hold a group meeting in a telephone kiosk!

 

John Isherwood.

But will have already kit built there own and be rivet squabbling already, and so wont have never ordered this model anyway.

 

I do not think this model is aimed at them, as even if KR models found a real one, used a shrink ray and a cloning machine to make perfect replicas they would still moan.

The market for this wagon, imho, is those who are interested in it, would otherwise would be unable to kit build it themselves in a reasonable time, quality or cost, which I suspect is much more of the rtr modellers out there.

i also reckon those who are offended by the lack of interior, will just give it a load. I dont believe there are that many modellers who run full and return empty... as side of the aforementioned niche.. who already have them.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2020 by adb968008

[johndon]

As I've already mentioned, I'm modelling the line in question so there are few, if any, modellers more interested in these than me.  I already have two rakes of kit built versions of these wagons but they would have been a must buy for me but, with no interior, they won't be.

 

Compared to what the likes of Accurascale and Cavalex are producing, these wagons, at least without an interior, appear to be somewhat of a retrograde step but perhaps KR Models never had an intention to produce wagons with the level of detail that we are now seeing elsewhere, it simply may not be the section of the market they are aiming for.  

 

For such a unique wagon, I do think that would be a huge shame...

 

[RBAGE]

56 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

But will have already kit built there own and be rivet squabbling already, and so wont have never ordered this model anyway.

 

I do not think this model is aimed at them, as even if KR models found a real one, used a shrink ray and a cloning machine to make perfect replicas they would still moan.

The market for this wagon, imho, is those who are interested in it, would otherwise would be unable to kit build it themselves in a reasonable time, quality or cost, which I suspect is much more of the rtr modellers out there.

i also reckon those who are offended by the lack of interior, will just give it a load. I dont believe there are that many modellers who run full and return empty... as side of the aforementioned niche.. who already have them.

 

 

 

 

I wonder how many of the modellers you refer to actually bother putting a load in their wagons. Any open wagon.

[adb968008]

8 hours ago, johndon said:

As I've already mentioned, I'm modelling the line in question so there are few, if any, modellers more interested in these than me.  I already have two rakes of kit built versions of these wagons but they would have been a must buy for me but, with no interior, they won't be.

 

Compared to what the likes of Accurascale and Cavalex are producing, these wagons, at least without an interior, appear to be somewhat of a retrograde step but perhaps KR Models never had an intention to produce wagons with the level of detail that we are now seeing elsewhere, it simply may not be the section of the market they are aiming for.  

 

For such a unique wagon, I do think that would be a huge shame...

 

I totally get where you are coming from.

Its your line, its your wagon, your expertise.

 

But its not as perfect as you’d want it to be, as your standard is probably much higher in personal interest and attention to detail, so this model isn't for you afterall.

 

I could draw parallels to KRModels and Hornby's approach to modern image... I haven't seen many kit built class 06’s on ebay, I suspect they are coveted by Scottish (and Reading) modellers.

Edited December 27, 2020 by adb968008

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

As the vast majority of these wagons won't be running on layouts based around Consett steelworks traffic, I think worrying about the interior pales into insignificance.

 

Mike.

[johndon]

54 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

But its not as perfect as you’d want it to be, as your standard is probably much higher in personal interest and attention to detail, so this model isn't for you afterall.

 

Missing rivets and handrails are one thing (one of the kits available for this wagon are missing those) but these days, is it really that high a standard to expect the interior of a wagon to at least be the right shape?

 

[johndon]

56 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

As the vast majority of these wagons won't be running on layouts based around Consett steelworks traffic, I think worrying about the interior pales into insignificance.

 

Mike.

 

I have no doubt we'll be seeing these in ones and twos on branch lines all over the country in the next 12 months...

 

[adb968008]

3 minutes ago, johndon said:

 

Missing rivets and handrails are one thing (one of the kits available for this wagon are missing those) but these days, is it really that high a standard to expect the interior of a wagon to at least be the right shape?

 

or the right shade of blue on a £340 pair of  locos ?

 

we are but simple customers.

Edited December 27, 2020 by adb968008

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, johndon said:

 

I have no doubt we'll be seeing these in ones and twos on branch lines all over the country in the next 12 months...

 

Yep, probably including mine ;-)

[MGR Hooper!]

1 hour ago, johndon said:

 

Missing rivets and handrails are one thing (one of the kits available for this wagon are missing those) but these days, is it really that high a standard to expect the interior of a wagon to at least be the right shape?

 

 

Not really... But then again, everyone has a different opinion, some want it, some can live without it. 

 

KRM have showed us a first ep and they've also shown us that they are open to criticism and they do take on feedback, so let's see what the second ep has in store for us. 

 

At least they like feedback unlike a certain other manufacturer who claims to welcome feedback and work on it, but doesn't actually do that. 

[KR Models]

23 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

KRM have showed us a first ep and they've also shown us that they are open to criticism and they do take on feedback, so let's see what the second ep has in store for us. 

 

At least they like feedback unlike a certain other manufacturer who claims to welcome feedback and work on it, but doesn't actually do that. 

The second EP should be coming some time in January praying everything goes right. Changes have been made, feedback has been listened to, and hopefully a lot of worries and issues that you all have will be put to rest.

 

I've chosen to quote MGR Hooper here specifically because it highlights one of our morals that we have held onto as best as we can since we started. We do listen to feedback, all of it. Including the walls of text, the furious observations, and comparisons to less-than-stellar competitors. 70% of the time, its me reading all of your thoughts and feelings regarding the decisions we make and the products we launch, and then we both discuss how to move forward with what we have been given. 

No, I'm not perfect at my job, I am very acutely aware of that, but don't think for a second that I am not giving it my all doing what I can to make sure that your concerns and criticisms are heard and understood. I know we have made mistakes, and I know for a lot of you it seems like we aren't listening. But we are. Both of us. We want to do the best job we can and do what we can with what we have. We aren't deliberately trying to alienate anyone, we work with the information and feedback we get.

 

As always, if anybody would like to contact me personally, my email and phone number are always open at any time of day. I welcome your messages one and all.

 

I hope you all had a wonderful Christmas, and I hope that 2021 fairs better for everyone than this year has. - Mike

[johndon]

Thanks for the update Mike, I look forward to seeing the second EP.