KR Models announce the Consett Iron Ore Wagon

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

As the vast majority of these wagons won't be running on layouts based around Consett steelworks traffic, I think worrying about the interior pales into insignificance.

 

Mike.

So in other words they are aimed at a non-discriminating person who doesn't mind what they buy but do so because they want to run one or two on their trainset?  Fair enough because there very obviously is such a market judging by the fact that Hornby, for example, sell lots of big engines to people who don't have the right sort of layout on which to run them.

 

To give KR their due they don't claim these models to be 'highly detailed' or use any other of the terms generally used in adverts to imply a particular level of detailing on a model.  They are what they are although I can absolutely understand the reaction of those who need the wagons for a model representing some part of the Consett ore working.  Perhaps we are, again, 'suffering' (a word I use advisedly) from not understanding where KR is coming from in terms of the level it is aiming at in a very diverse marketplace.

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 Perhaps we are, again, 'suffering' (a word I use advisedly) from not understanding where KR is coming from in terms of the level it is aiming at in a very diverse marketplace.

Or is it that KR Models haven't found their niche yet?

 

The GT3 looks to me like a finely detailed model, which makes me think somewhere between Bachmann and Accurascale, but the Consett wagon has gone all Hornby which is confusing.  Accurascale give it their all on everything they produce, rather like Rapido, Bachmann raise their game towards the challengers and produces accurate models which are for the masses.  Hornby has two levels when you include the Railroad range and though there have been some that bridge between Railroad and full fat generally you know the difference by them being range specific.

 

I applaud KR models for doing the ugly sisters GT3, Leader and Fell - never did I think they would be done in RTR and the GT3 that Hornby Magazine reviewed looked like a good model for the money.  But with the Consett ore wagon it looks like it is between two places and it is confusing for me to know what it is KR Models want to be known for because it's not clear at the moment.

 

I think people expect more now of the smaller companies, if you look at Accurascale, RevolutioN, Rapido, RealTrack & Cavalex - they choose quality over price (within reason) and I guess I was expecting the same of KR Models which is why I was dissapointed in their view of that there was no need for an interior in an open wagon.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I'm trying to put this in a non-criticising way, but the arrival of this wagon will probably end any possibilities of there being a more "accurate" model from another manufacturer, if such a scenario were ever to exist of course.

 

Mike.

[Mark Saunders]

51 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I'm trying to put this in a non-criticising way, but the arrival of this wagon will probably end any possibilities of there being a more "accurate" model from another manufacturer, if such a scenario were ever to exist of course.

 

Mike.

Why it never stopped other manufacturers duplicating wagons and locomotives before!

[Enterprisingwestern]

3 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

Why it never stopped other manufacturers duplicating wagons and locomotives before!

 

Agreed, but I'm thinking of the law of diminishing returns.

 

Mike.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

Why it never stopped other manufacturers duplicating wagons and locomotives before!

But a rather poor attempt at Woodhead electrics a few years back definitely killed the market for something better.   Milk tanks were quite common vehicles back in the day and suitable for numerous layouts but nobody has yet had a go at doing a really good one - of any variety - no doubt because there are plenty of 'acceptable' ones about.  Consett ore hoppers were very rare beasts except in one small part of the north east and it would be a brave concern that would sink the best part of £100,000 into doing the necessary detail research and design to produce top notch versions into what on the face of it could be not only a limited market but one where a cheap and less detailed, version exists.

 

We tend to see duplication where the target is either completing a range for a manufacturer, or there is a yawning gap in the market and a couple of companies step into it at the same time, or where there is a long in the tooth version that is ripe for replacement by something to the latest standards.

[BR Blue]

On 27/12/2020 at 11:50, KR Models said:

and comparisons to less-than-stellar competitors.

I am curious as to whom this remark is aimed at. Only wagons in the Hornby Railroad range would appear to be less than stellar than what we have seen so far of this wagon. Even that is debatable.

 

Hopefully the next version proves me wrong.

[96701]

5 hours ago, BR Blue said:

I am curious as to whom this remark is aimed at. Only wagons in the Hornby Railroad range would appear to be less than stellar than what we have seen so far of this wagon. Even that is debatable.

 

Hopefully the next version proves me wrong.

Try and work it out. Michael is probably not referring to other manufacturers, more likely referring to other crowdfunding where people use money from one project to fund another one.  You have to read a lot of threads on KR Models within RMweb to get a flavour of the opprobrium heaped upon the 2 individuals  who make up KR Models.

[Les1952]

On 27/12/2020 at 12:11, The Stationmaster said:

So in other words they are aimed at a non-discriminating person who doesn't mind what they buy but do so because they want to run one or two on their trainset?  Fair enough because there very obviously is such a market judging by the fact that Hornby, for example, sell lots of big engines to people who don't have the right sort of layout on which to run them.

 

To give KR their due they don't claim these models to be 'highly detailed' or use any other of the terms generally used in adverts to imply a particular level of detailing on a model.  They are what they are although I can absolutely understand the reaction of those who need the wagons for a model representing some part of the Consett ore working.  Perhaps we are, again, 'suffering' (a word I use advisedly) from not understanding where KR is coming from in terms of the level it is aiming at in a very diverse marketplace.

 

A couple of thoughts-

 

If the model were built to have every last rivet in exactly the right place, including those for which tooling would involve a lot of expensive extra parts, would it retail for the sort of price that would attract enough buyers to cover the cost of that tooling?

 

If it sold ONLY to those wanting two rakes of them (18 wagons) to run a full and an empty train as per prototype how many sales would there be?

 

Now divide the 6-figure cost of tooling this wagon by that number of sales and you get the amount per wagon it will take to tool it- my best guess is well North of £100 a wagon just for the tooling. Then add in the cost of making it, checking and packing it, getting it to the UK, posting it to you and a bit of profit so that KR can eat.  £125 a wagon, anyone?  Times eighteen for your two rakes...

 

Therefore to get the wagon at all in r-t-r form you need to bring the cost down by not adding in unnecessary slides and trying to sell more of them.  The non-purists need to buy for the purist to actually get a product.

 

It won't fit under the screens on No Place but I'm wondering if an odd one could be found on the preservation side of the layout.  Just the thing for a Stroudley terrier to pull....

 

Les

[dogbox321]

Personally, I wish KR the best with this venture and I thank them for their response.

 

Without arguing one point or another.  KR have said that they have listened to the concerns.  So lets see what the EP2 brings.  If its good I will place an order, if not purchase something else!  Its a very simple and uncomplicated answer to many what ifs, maybe's etc.!

 

Remain Safe everyone,

 

Best Wishes,

 

Christopher.

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

A couple of thoughts-

 

If the model were built to have every last rivet in exactly the right place, including those for which tooling would involve a lot of expensive extra parts, would it retail for the sort of price that would attract enough buyers to cover the cost of that tooling?

 

If it sold ONLY to those wanting two rakes of them (18 wagons) to run a full and an empty train as per prototype how many sales would there be?

 

Now divide the 6-figure cost of tooling this wagon by that number of sales and you get the amount per wagon it will take to tool it- my best guess is well North of £100 a wagon just for the tooling. Then add in the cost of making it, checking and packing it, getting it to the UK, posting it to you and a bit of profit so that KR can eat.  £125 a wagon, anyone?  Times eighteen for your two rakes...

 

Therefore to get the wagon at all in r-t-r form you need to bring the cost down by not adding in unnecessary slides and trying to sell more of them.  The non-purists need to buy for the purist to actually get a product.

 

It won't fit under the screens on No Place but I'm wondering if an odd one could be found on the preservation side of the layout.  Just the thing for a Stroudley terrier to pull....

 

Les

Odd then that other people seem to be able to do it and seemingly sell their products with no problems.  Of course it all depends on how many you spread the cost over and that comes back to what teh market is looking for.   But some fairly unusual modern wagons seem to be worthwhile for various folk and none of them appear to have gone bust yet.

 

At the end of the day it all comes back to where a 'manufacturer' positions themselves in the market and ho customers perceive their positioning and what it means in respect of the models they produce.  Better mousetraps tend to sell, even at higher prices, when the customer knows what to expect.

 

12 hours ago, 96701 said:

Try and work it out. Michael is probably not referring to other manufacturers, more likely referring to other crowdfunding where people use money from one project to fund another one.  You have to read a lot of threads on KR Models within RMweb to get a flavour of the opprobrium heaped upon the 2 individuals  who make up KR Models.

re 'less than stellar competitors'

Well we all know there was one who it would appear was very likely doing that (not that there was any concrete public evidence) but who - by the implication of your comment - is doing it now?  Surely in order to be a 'less than stellar competitor' that implies it is happening now?  

 

Literally the term 'less than stellar' means less than wonderful or less than outstanding so is more perhaps likely a reference to (perceived) 'quality' rather than anything else.  You could no doubt say less than wonderful of many models although it would no doubt often be a point of contention as peoples' views about what makes something 'outstanding' can vary considerably. 

 

As far as opprobrium is concerned there is an old truism applied to the management or delivery of things - under promise and over deliver.   KR's reputation will be made among customers and others on that basis.  They - in my view due to inexperience - over promised on the GT3 delivery and the delay has been exacerbated by the pandemic; that even so is not a good way of building reputation.  Equally they will be judged by what they deliver and how it fits into the overall UK model railway market as it stands at the beginning of the 2020s and that will inevitably mean comparison with their competitors in the market place.  Beyond various EP models that judgement has yet to come.

[Darius43]

14 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Odd then that other people seem to be able to do it and seemingly sell their products with no problems.  Of course it all depends on how many you spread the cost over and that comes back to what teh market is looking for.   But some fairly unusual modern wagons seem to be worthwhile for various folk and none of them appear to have gone bust yet.

 

At the end of the day it all comes back to where a 'manufacturer' positions themselves in the market and ho customers perceive their positioning and what it means in respect of the models they produce.  Better mousetraps tend to sell, even at higher prices, when the customer knows what to expect.

 

re 'less than stellar competitors'

Well we all know there was one who it would appear was very likely doing that (not that there was any concrete public evidence) but who - by the implication of your comment - is doing it now?  Surely in order to be a 'less than stellar competitor' that implies it is happening now?  

 

Literally the term 'less than stellar' means less than wonderful or less than outstanding so is more perhaps likely a reference to (perceived) 'quality' rather than anything else.  You could no doubt say less than wonderful of many models although it would no doubt often be a point of contention as peoples' views about what makes something 'outstanding' can vary considerably. 

 

As far as opprobrium is concerned there is an old truism applied to the management or delivery of things - under promise and over deliver.   KR's reputation will be made among customers and others on that basis.  They - in my view due to inexperience - over promised on the GT3 delivery and the delay has been exacerbated by the pandemic; that even so is not a good way of building reputation.  Equally they will be judged by what they deliver and how it fits into the overall UK model railway market as it stands at the beginning of the 2020s and that will inevitably mean comparison with their competitors in the market place.  Beyond various EP models that judgement has yet to come.

I think your keyboard’s italics key is stuck in the down position.

 

Darius

 

 

 

[69843]

2 hours ago, Darius43 said:

I think your keyboard’s italics key is stuck in the down position.

 

Darius

No that's just Mike. He's been here so long even his words are wiser than the rest of us.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Darius43 said:

I think your keyboard’s italics key is stuck in the down position.

 

Darius

 

 

 

Well as t'is the season -

 

Oh no they're not

[johndon]

16 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

If the model were built to have every last rivet in exactly the right place, including those for which tooling would involve a lot of expensive extra parts, would it retail for the sort of price that would attract enough buyers to cover the cost of that tooling?

 

 

Problem is that, on the first EP that has been shown, it is not just rivets in the wrong place, the interior sides are completely wrong.

 

I'm pleased that KR Models have come back and said that they are listening to all the feedback and I look forward to seeing the next EP.

 

John

 

[Mark Saunders]

Have any of the people commenting on these actually got any real sources of information to make informed comment?

[johndon]

16 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

Have any of the people commenting on these actually got any real sources of information to make informed comment?

 

Yes and I've already supplied images to KR Models of the interior of the wagons which are, I'll admit, as hard to come by as rocking horse poop...

Edited December 30, 2020 by johndon

[Mark Saunders]

Photo’s only ever give a best estimate a  General Arrangement drawing is far better to work from! 
 

The real proof will come with the actual production model .

[cctransuk]

4 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

Photo’s only ever give a best estimate a  General Arrangement drawing is far better to work from! 
 

The real proof will come with the actual production model .

 

It would be perfectly possible to produce a better model than the first EP from the interior photo that has appeared above.

 

Maybe not 100% accurate - but a d@mned sight better than the blank panels of the EP.

 

John Isherwood.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

KR could maybe have avoided this shot to the foot if they had modelled the load as part of the body moulding?

 

Mike.

[New Haven Neil]

35 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

Photo’s only ever give a best estimate a  General Arrangement drawing is far better to work from! 
 

The real proof will come with the actual production model .

 

As I said ages ago, I know someone who has such a thing.  I'm sure he will have looked in at this thread, he must have decided not to make comment.  Dave Bradwell used it.....I hope my friend got it back!

[Darius43]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Well as t'is the season -

 

Oh no they're not

It’s behind you!!!

[JCL]

On 30/12/2020 at 08:41, Mark Saunders said:

Photo’s only ever give a best estimate a  General Arrangement drawing is far better to work from! 
 

The real proof will come with the actual production model .

Unfortunately, that’s not always necessarily true. I’ve seen photos of vehicles that have been built that have differences to their associated GAs. A combination of GAs, photos and the ability to squint would be better. 

[Craigw]

36 minutes ago, JCL said:

Unfortunately, that’s not always necessarily true. I’ve seen photos of vehicles that have been built that have differences to their associated GAs. A combination of GAs, photos and the ability to squint would be better. 

 

If the photo is different to the GA then you need to look at the amendment list of the drawing and also the sub drawings that are called up in the GA drawing.

 

The availability of a GA does not mean all variations are covered by that GA and if the copy is not one that was correctly updated then it is only relevant for a snapshot in time. 

 

A General Arrangement drawing is just that - an arrangement. It should be used in conjunction with the called out detail drawings.

 

Craig W

[Talltim]

19 minutes ago, Craigw said:

A General Arrangement drawing is just that - an arrangement. It should be used in conjunction with the called out detail drawings.

 

Craig W

And photos