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KR Models announce the Consett Iron Ore Wagon


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2 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

If the photo is different to the GA then you need to look at the amendment list of the drawing and also the sub drawings that are called up in the GA drawing.

 

The availability of a GA does not mean all variations are covered by that GA and if the copy is not one that was correctly updated then it is only relevant for a snapshot in time. 

 

A General Arrangement drawing is just that - an arrangement. It should be used in conjunction with the called out detail drawings.

 

Craig W

Which does of course assume that the whatever was actually built in accordance with the drawings ;)

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As drawn. As built. As modified. Anyone who is making ready-to-run models needs to be (or to make use of) a dedicated researcher. Relying on any one set of drawings or photographs, one scan, or one source of info doesn't work. Particularly with rolling stock, you need a broad UNDERSTANDING of your subject to decide what detail is standard, what detail is variable and to be able to make a considered judgement of what to include, what variations you can afford to cater for, and what aspects cannot be covered by your tooling. (CJL)

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11 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Which does of course assume that the whatever was actually built in accordance with the drawings ;)

 

The classic example of that was Silver Link, of which some parts were built before the associated drawings were made- meaning that when the second and subsequent A4s were built to the drawings they were not at first identical to the first one.  Over time the differences became less- but these were external differences, internal parts were fully interchangable.

 

Les

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Anyone who doubts the necessity of always using a good dated photo in conjunction with the 'as built/intended' drawing need look no further than any Black 5 which had any involvement with St Rollox at any point in its career. About the only thing guaranteed is that it would come out with the same number of wheels it went in with, anything else was fair game. Currently picking my way through 6 of the wretched things. 

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I am having difficulties with this discussion, knowing a little of what they have to work with. How is this simplification any different to the internal hopper of the 4mm HUO which has a shelf which is quite incorrect and lacks other details. Some of which was corrected for the 7mm version. And that was a prototype which could be studied. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brhopperhuo/eb83055c 

 

Paul

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42 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

I am having difficulties with this discussion, knowing a little of what they have to work with.

 

Paul,

 

I think the essence of the disquiet expressed here is that two kit manufacturers - presumably both researching the same model, and having potential access to the same (limited?) historic material, managed to produce these : -

 

DSCN1696a.jpg.077465e2ef6db784e4ecc6429bf5a729.jpg.5d80efda429b348c00eefc0a2e10c707.jpg

 

whereas KR Models produced this : -

 

966851061_ironore.jpg.f9a3ebf39aa65faf1f0023410489b006.jpg.1c530f7337ccb99b439486be12b37127.jpg

 

It may well be that neither of the kits is spot-on; but a lot of those who have posted critical comments here might reasonably have expected from KRM something approaching the detail of the models supplied by the two kit producers.

 

John Isherwood.

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7 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

It may well be that neither of the kits is spot-on; but a lot of those who have posted critical comments here might reasonably have expected from KRM something approaching the detail of the models supplied by the two kit producers.

 

John Isherwood.

Not at 24 quid each ready to run I don't.

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17 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Not at 24 quid each ready to run I don't.

 

Neither do I - but plenty of the more recent RTR wagon producers seem to find a market for their products at a more realistic price.

 

The days of Lima-type 'generic' models are gone, IMHO.

 

John Isherwood.

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1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

Neither do I - but plenty of the more recent RTR wagon producers seem to find a market for their products at a more realistic price.

 

The days of Lima-type 'generic' models are gone, IMHO.

 

John Isherwood.

I'd hardly call the KR model 'generic' because it doesn't have a detailed interior. 

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2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

whereas KR Models produced this : -

 

 

They haven't produced anything yet.

its only an EP.

they asked for feedback, and they've got it.

 

i’m sure we've all made mistakes, I've just made a pipe, fitted, painted it perfectly into the wrong place on a model just today, at both ends too.


pitch forks at ease.

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

They haven't produced anything yet.

its only an EP.

they asked for feedback, and they've got it.

 

i’m sure we've all made mistakes, I've just made a pipe, fitted, painted it perfectly into the wrong place on a model just today, at both ends too.


pitch forks at ease.

 

KRM didn't omit interior detail by "mistake"; it was a conscious decision.

 

Some of us are concerned that these conscious decisions demonstrate a poor understanding of the market.

 

John Isherwood.

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2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

KRM didn't omit interior detail by "mistake"; it was a conscious decision.

 

Some of us are concerned that these conscious decisions demonstrate a poor understanding of the market.

 

John Isherwood.

Does it matter, if they listen and learn before the final product is made ?

 

on another thread we just learned the Simon Kohler just made his first layout and hes been in the game for more years than most of us.

 

its their job, its our hobby. Passion and accuracy is what we want, profit is what manufacturers want.

Edited by adb968008
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12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

They haven't produced anything yet.

its only an EP.

they asked for feedback, and they've got it.

 

i’m sure we've all made mistakes, I've just made a pipe, fitted, painted it perfectly into the wrong place on a model just today, at both ends too.


pitch forks at ease.

 

'only' an EP? This is effectively what is being produced, and (IMO) its being shared as a sales/advertising tool rather than having any real interest in feedback, never the less, feedback is being given, not so much about this wagon (which I know nothing about) but as much about the 'market expectations' for a wagon like this.

 

The KR model is a shade better than that we would have seen in the 1980's at a price that reflects the low level of detail/research. As far as KR is concerned, that might well be a good business model, there have been enough 'I'll buy a dozen, even though I model <choose some random location far from Tyne Dock> <choose some random time period>' responses to indicate it will probably sell sufficiently to turn a profit, but there have also been enough comments to suggest that a large part of the market now expects rather more research, leading to better detail, and (importantly) is prepared to pay for it.

 

I think EnterprisingWesterns concern that a mediocre model will 'block' another better model is valid, yes the presence of a relatively newly tooled HAA in the Hornby range has not stopped not one, but two new manufacturers going after that as a prototype, but the sheer number of HAA's built, and their geographic spread is going to make the market for this MUCH bigger, whereas the Consett hoppers will only ever be niche, and any model produced would need not just those who are modelling the right era/area to want some, but also enough 'oh that looks nice' casual purchases to provide the sales volume, and a fair number of those may well take the view ' my £25 KR one is good enough, I don't want a £50 Newco one'.

 

Jon

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10 minutes ago, jonhall said:

 

'only' an EP? This is effectively what is being produced, and (IMO) its being shared as a sales/advertising tool rather than having any real interest in feedback, never the less, feedback is being given, not so much about this wagon (which I know nothing about) but as much about the 'market expectations' for a wagon like this.

 

No its an EP.

its unpainted for a start.

 

Of course its an advertising tool.

i bet numbers viewing the site have soared since they published it.

From a marketing tool, this EP has been very effective, no such thing as bad publicity.

Judging the reaction and comments, people have been sucked right in, screaming and all.

 

They already said they’d look at the interior, despite this comments still keep flowing as fresh eyes are drawn to the flame of publicity before getting burnt and come away screaming.

 

The thing about niche in this hobby, is everyone wants it. There might be a million HAAs built, but most will only buy 1 rake, but there was only 3 Beatties built, and most will have one or two, despite having nothing for it to pull and nothing cornish about their layout.

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46 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

i bet numbers viewing the site have soared since they published it.

 

From a marketing tool, this EP has been very effective, no such thing as bad publicity.

 

Okay, but where are the quality photographs of this EP for further comment if that is the case? The video footage of the EP was linked by a forum member, not published directly to RMweb by KR. I wonder if there is something to that...

 

There may be no such thing as "bad publicity" but gaffes and missteps do impact brand perception in the eyes of the consumer. 

 

Paul A. 

 

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33 minutes ago, 1whitemoor said:

 

Okay, but where are the quality photographs of this EP for further comment if that is the case? The video footage of the EP was linked by a forum member, not published directly to RMweb by KR. I wonder if there is something to that...

 

There may be no such thing as "bad publicity" but gaffes and missteps do impact brand perception in the eyes of the consumer. 

 

Paul A. 

 

On their facebook page.

Though those ranting here, probably havent looked there.

 

the video footage is also from a link on their facebook page.

But again, those commenting here, are probably not customers either, as otherwise they would be looking in their shop front.. their facebook page.


i wont post it, as it will only encourage those with an axe to grind, to go and look, and then return with further sharpened knives.

 

but the pictures on the facebook page, certainly are quite detailed and not bad.


Much of this whinging is just a load of iron ore... or at least just enough to cover what the whinging is about.

 

if they fix it, they may sell more, if they don’t they maybe won’t, but thats not your nor mines problem.

 

 

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

On their facebook page.

Though those ranting here, probably havent looked there.

 

the video footage is also from a link on their facebook page.

But again, those commenting here, are probably not customers either, as otherwise they would be looking in their shop front.. their facebook page.


i wont post it, as it will only encourage those with an axe to grind, to go and look, and then return with further sharpened knives.

 

but the pictures on the facebook page, certainly are quite detailed and not bad.


Much of this whinging is just a load of iron ore... or at least just enough to cover what the whinging is about.

 

if they fix it, they may sell more, if they don’t they maybe won’t, but thats not your nor mines problem.

 

 

To be fair the one ranting the most..... is you.

 

You don't have to reply to every single post, particularly as you seem to be getting into something of a stew over what are basically just other peoples' opinions. Or perhaps you have an interest to declare? :P

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15 hours ago, adb968008 said:

They haven't produced anything yet.

its only an EP.

they asked for feedback, and they've got it.

 

i’m sure we've all made mistakes, I've just made a pipe, fitted, painted it perfectly into the wrong place on a model just today, at both ends too.


pitch forks at ease.

But don't forget the purpose of an EP.  While companies might use it to illustrate progress that is not its purpose nor why it is produced.  It is done in order to check the fit of parts hence minor detail - such as rivet heads - can be missing but what it basically is what the model will be, provided it all fits together as it is supposed to.   Provided all the moulded parts etc go together as they should and meet the customer's and designer's specification then that is it.  A second EP will only be needed if things don't fit together properly as they were designed to and the tooling has to be altered to make them fit properly.

 

As has already been noted changing the interior of this wagon would be a major re-tooling job for the sides of the wagon and would probably involve using separate moulded parts and that would, in turn require its own EP once it has been tooled - not a 2nd EP of the existing tooling.

 

On 17 December KR posted on their Facebook page a photo of what appear to be two different variants of decoration samples.  That is something which normally follows the EP stage of the process although, in order to save time, it might use tooling which hasn't had the extra detailed work, such as rivet heads, completed following the EP assembly check stage.   But in overall terms major changes after the 'proving' EP has been produced are not normally feasible unless they involve very minor changes to the tools or parts of them.  Big changes mean starting the tooling process all over again and, of course,  paying for it additionally if it is a variation from the original specification which the factory contracted for.

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4 hours ago, jonhall said:

 

'only' an EP? This is effectively what is being produced, and (IMO) its being shared as a sales/advertising tool rather than having any real interest in feedback, never the less, feedback is being given, not so much about this wagon (which I know nothing about) but as much about the 'market expectations' for a wagon like this.

 

Jon

 

If that's not an EP to you then what is? That is quite clearly and EP sample.

 

I'm now more concerned about possible customers thinking an EP is a finished product rather than KR Models making changes to the tooling. 

Edited by MGR Hooper!
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3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

There might be a million HAAs built, but most will only buy 1 rake, but there was only 3 Beatties built, and most will have one or two, despite having nothing for it to pull and nothing cornish about their layout.

 

The difference is that Beatties are pretty as are Model Rail Sentinels, Rapido J70s etc. Which is how I finished up with a Peckett I don't need. And 'only 1 rake" of HAAs is still over a grand at Cavalex prices, very few people will have bought ten Beatties because they look cute. 

 

I can always justify the odd atypical wagon, eg the odd horsebox at £25 or whatever they are now, they can be tagged onto a passenger train or sits in the end loading dock. But the only people buying these will be people either already modelling Consett - Tyne Dock who would prefer not to build another 9 Bradwell/Alexander kits, or people who will now consider it because the awkward bit is now available RTR, or the occasional collector who must have one of everything. 

 

I don't have a dog in this particular fight, I just think it's an odd choice of prototype. I also totally get that it might have been done to a certain standard to keep the tooling costs down, but the "does anyone have any photos of the inside ?" question a couple of pages back suggests that isn't the case. 

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14 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

 

 

But the only people buying these will be people either already modelling Consett - Tyne Dock who would prefer not to build another 9 Bradwell/Alexander kits, or people who will now consider it because the awkward bit is now available RTR, or the occasional collector who must have one of everything. 

 

 

..or people like me who may buy a handful because they look nice and can run under rule 1. The potential market for any product doesn't consist solely of rivet counters and collectors, there's a continuous spectrum in between, which I suspect is where the majority of the demand comes from.

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