KR Models announce the Consett Iron Ore Wagon

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

If that's not an EP to you then what is? That is quite clearly and EP sample.

 

I'm now more concerned about possible customers thinking an EP is a finished product rather than KR Models making changes to the tooling. 

An Engineering Prototype is  basically what the finished product will be in terms of the arrangement and moulding of its component parts - that is its entire purpose,  to make sure that what has been tooled and moulded fits together properly. 

 

Various small surface details, particularly rivet heads, are often added later as they are no more then minor depressions cut into a tool which the EP has 'proved' as being correct.  Similarly, provided the nature and arrangement of parts on the tools permits, then some minor details might be able to be changed especially if it only involves cutting away small amounts of metal from the tool.  But as far as the arrangement of parts and the way the thing goes together that is what the EP is there to prove - to check the engineering of the thing.  And if it fits together properly that basically, minor added surface detail apart, is what the model will be like unless, for whatever reason, it is retooled and another pile of money is spent doing so.

 

Major changes at the EP stage can be very difficult for a variety of reasons  depending on the way the tools have been made and the way smaller parts are arranged on them.  Sometimes to just alter a small thing might mean having to completely scrap one particular tool and start again.  which is one reason why some appearance deficiencies that show in an EP tend not to be altered.  All of that should be done at the CAD stage when every part can be viewed from any angle and at any sensible degree of magnification to check that it is as near correct as feasible and before the really expensive bit of making the tooling is started.  Screen gabs of CADs have some utility and might sometimes lead to an obvious error being spotted but the only way to do it properly is using specialist software to view the CAD files in detail and to check the parts list where necessary.

Edited January 4, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[Bernard Lamb]

On 27/12/2020 at 12:11, The Stationmaster said:

So in other words they are aimed at a non-discriminating person who doesn't mind what they buy but do so because they want to run one or two on their trainset?  Fair enough because there very obviously is such a market judging by the fact that Hornby, for example, sell lots of big engines to people who don't have the right sort of layout on which to run them.

 

To give KR their due they don't claim these models to be 'highly detailed' or use any other of the terms generally used in adverts to imply a particular level of detailing on a model.  They are what they are although I can absolutely understand the reaction of those who need the wagons for a model representing some part of the Consett ore working.  Perhaps we are, again, 'suffering' (a word I use advisedly) from not understanding where KR is coming from in terms of the level it is aiming at in a very diverse marketplace.

How does that tie in with this?

Bernard

 

KR (Keith Revell), Models Ltd, was born out of my passion for model railways.  My interest in trains came from watching class 25's and 40's run between Carrington Colliery and Fiddlers Ferry power station.

The aim is to bring ‘never been produced’ models or ‘long since gone’ models back to life.  With the way manufacturing has developed over the last few years has significantly helped bring better quality models to market.  As an experienced model maker, bringing top quality models to you that will complement any layout.

 

[jonhall]

3 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

If that's not an EP to you then what is? That is quite clearly and EP sample.

 

I'm now more concerned about possible customers thinking an EP is a finished product rather than KR Models making changes to the tooling. 

 

I quoted ADB968008 who called it 'only an EP' - and my inverted comma's were there to highlight the ONLY bit, because the EP stage isn't an 'only' point,  it is a HUGE milestone/decision point.

 

The EP should be (and in this case probably is) the final chance, 'catch the complete cock-up stage before pressing go on production' stage. By the time the EP arrives (and images are shared by the manufacturer on any platform) that's a pretty good indication of what is going to be made 99.9+. I don't think the EP is a 3d print, its complete parts made from the production tooling but hand assembled to prove it all works.

 

Any changes are going to be limited to functional becaue it has to be changed (e.g. it won't go around corners) or easy (ie cheap) additions - like adding the odd missing rivet. It is WAY PAST the point of adding (for instance) interior detail - that's a start again change which has huge cost implications.

 

Jon

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, jonhall said:

 

I quoted ADB968008 who called it 'only an EP' - and my inverted comma's were there to highlight the ONLY bit, because the EP stage isn't an 'only' point,  it is a HUGE milestone/decision point.

 

The EP should be (and in this case probably is) the final chance, 'catch the complete cock-up stage before pressing go on production' stage. By the time the EP arrives (and images are shared by the manufacturer on any platform) that's a pretty good indication of what is going to be made 99.9+. I don't think the EP is a 3d print, its complete parts made from the production tooling but hand assembled to prove it all works.

 

Any changes are going to be limited to functional becaue it has to be changed (e.g. it won't go around corners) or easy (ie cheap) additions - like adding the odd missing rivet. It is WAY PAST the point of adding (for instance) interior detail - that's a start again change which has huge cost implications.

 

Jon

 

That (presumably) being the case - what we need is someone with 3D printing skills and capabilities to set to, producing side doors with interior detail, so that we can hack out the blank walls that KRM seems to think will suffice for interior detail.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[KR Models]

5 minutes ago, jonhall said:

 

I quoted ADB968008 who called it 'only an EP' - and my inverted comma's were there to highlight the ONLY bit, because the EP stage isn't an 'only' point,  it is a HUGE milestone/decision point.

 

The EP should be (and in this case probably is) the final chance, 'catch the complete cock-up stage before pressing go on production' stage. By the time the EP arrives (and images are shared by the manufacturer on any platform) that's a pretty good indication of what is going to be made 99.9+. I don't think the EP is a 3d print, its complete parts made from the production tooling but hand assembled to prove it all works.

 

Any changes are going to be limited to functional becaue it has to be changed (e.g. it won't go around corners) or easy (ie cheap) additions - like adding the odd missing rivet. It is WAY PAST the point of adding (for instance) interior detail - that's a start again change which has huge cost implications.

 

Jon

You are so so very wrong. 

 

We can have as many samples as we want prior to us hitting the go button on the production to make sure we get everything right. Which is exactly what we are doing. In no way is a EP sample a "final chance" as you put it. Its a prototype, not a finished product. 

 

[jonhall]

11 minutes ago, KR Models said:

You are so so very wrong. 

 

We can have as many samples as we want prior to us hitting the go button on the production to make sure we get everything right. Which is exactly what we are doing. In no way is a EP sample a "final chance" as you put it. Its a prototype, not a finished product. 

 

 

That's encouraging I guess, although most projects I've been aware of have used the EP the way I describe, since reviews that require a physical object to be produced are rather more expensive that doing those iterative changes at the CAD stage.

 

Jon

[The Stationmaster]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

How does that tie in with this?

Bernard

 

KR (Keith Revell), Models Ltd, was born out of my passion for model railways.  My interest in trains came from watching class 25's and 40's run between Carrington Colliery and Fiddlers Ferry power station.

The aim is to bring ‘never been produced’ models or ‘long since gone’ models back to life.  With the way manufacturing has developed over the last few years has significantly helped bring better quality models to market.  As an experienced model maker, bringing top quality models to you that will complement any layout.

 

And interesting question. But as we were told in every 'quality; course I ever attended, including training courses for preparing sti uff for ISO certification, quality is a rather vague and meaningless term without qualification.   What matters is how you define the level of quality you will be working to and for  which your procedures, standards, and monitoring will be set in order to ensure you consistently fe deliver that standard.

 

So for example in a railway model Lima worked to a consistent quality standard for its wheels.  But their quality standard for flange depth and tread width was different from, say, Romford or Hornby.   Someone might for example specify their wheel quality as 100% truly concentric and 100% tested to meet that standard while someone else will set their standard and measurement in a different way - but both are their individual definitions of quality.

1 minute ago, KR Models said:

You are so so very wrong. 

 

We can have as many samples as we want prior to us hitting the go button on the production to make sure we get everything right. Which is exactly what we are doing. In no way is a EP sample a "final chance" as you put it. Its a prototype, not a finished product. t

In which case you have a very different understanding of an Engineering Prototype from everybody else I can think of in this business.  An EP is what is says - it checks that engineering has produced parts that fit together as they should and that the tooling works.  To get those parts as correct as possible in the first place is done via the CAD work and if you don't get that and the specification right in terms of what you want the model to be then the tooling will produce a model which isn't what you wanted it to be.  

 

So you then go back to your factory and ask them why they haven't produced a model in accordance with your specification?  In the case of this vehicle if your spec said you wanted a particular level of vehicle interior detail that should in any case have shown up when you checked the CAD files.  But if an EP then comes along which still shows a shortcoming in meeting your original written spec and contract with the factory you go back to the factory and tell them to put it right.  In my experience the factories are pretty good at sticking to spec and, being Chinese, they don't like losing face when they haven't - apart from having to carry the cost to completely retool something.   But if they've met the spec and you signed off the CAD files then if you want changes which mean new tools they will pop it on your bill.  and when they have retooled they will produce a new EP to check that the new tooling produces parts which fit together properly

[KR Models]

Just now, chris p bacon said:

 

That may well be, but it will come at a cost.

 

A strange way to make a profit on a niche wagon.

Yes, there is a cost to everything. But the editing of the samples and tooling is all part of the production process and covered under the costs. Its nothing we didn't expect.

 

EP samples are just that, samples. The purpose of them is to fix what's wrong with them before it goes into production.

[Clagsniffer]

I do get a bit tired of all the comments of people sticking the boot into KR. If people aren’t happy with the way the company operates or promotes products or whatever, why not just stay away/ignore the KR threads?

 

I follow this thread with interest and receive notifications of new posts but most of the time when I come to read its just more of the same mud slinging.

 

My layout is set nowhere near Tyne dock, but I live in Newcastle, so I like the local connection. To this end I’m very interested in buying the full rake of wagons. I don’t have the time/skill to make the required kits so these wagons will do for me, especially at the price offered which I think is very reasonable.

 

[woodenhead]

@KR Models off the wall question, but where was Carrington Colliery?  I have been trying to find it and Google is coming up blank, did it have another name?

[The Stationmaster]

20 minutes ago, KR Models said:

Yes, there is a cost to everything. But the editing of the samples and tooling is all part of the production process and covered under the costs. Its nothing we didn't expect.

 

EP samples are just that, samples. The purpose of them is to fix what's wrong with them before it goes into production.

No - it is called an Engineering Prototype because its purpose is to check the enginerring of the tooling to make sure parts fit properly and as they should.   Once it has proved the tooling to be correct any surface detail tooling which has been held back (as if often the case) will then proceed.  It is not normally that case to make anything but minor detail changes -if they are feasible on the existing tools at that stage.  After all - what the tooling has done, or should have done, is reproduce what was on the CADs the client agreed with the factory.

 

Before you go inro production you get a pre-production sample to check taht all is well and sign off the item for production.

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, stovepipe said:

To be fair the one ranting the most..... is you.

 

You don't have to reply to every single post, particularly as you seem to be getting into something of a stew over what are basically just other peoples' opinions. Or perhaps you have an interest to declare?

In 11 pages Ive only posted a half dozen times.

just because I happen to wake up reading pages of knife stabbing posts doesnt mean I should not respond to their defence.

 

As for an interest,.

 

Yes Ive ordered it, two sets in fact, with loads.

Also a Fell and a GT3.

paid in full.

 

if you dont spin, you dont win.

 

Good luck to them, I have confidence they will deliver.

 

When they started, I was very hesitant, indeed very investigative.. just go look at the first pages of the GT3 thread.
However, my conclusion is they are fine, my confidence was built on that.

At that point i put my swords down, and got on board.

KR takes a lot of beatings in here, much of it feels like people are just venting at an easy target (bullying).

 

Theyve come a very long way in a very short time, and at sometimes they might seem naive, however :

 

A. you cannot say they dont listen.

B. you cannot say they dont act on advice.

C. they've also proved 3 toolings now exist.

 

Theyve achieved 3 toolings which no one would ever have guess to be made, a rtr Fell was stuff of jokes for years. The GT3 just got excellant reviews.

 

I do find the blunt  “if you dont like it tough” approach mildly amusing sometimes, especially the reactions to it, and its at odds with the cotton wool approach of others. But they do listen and they do get on with it.

 

i’m supportive of them, I wish I was doing what they do... father/son pursuing a hobby as a business.. best of luck.

 

Let them get on with it...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by adb968008

[PMP]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

On their facebook page.

Though those ranting here, probably havent looked there.

 

the video footage is also from a link on their facebook page.

But again, those commenting here, are probably not customers either, as otherwise they would be looking in their shop front.. their facebook page.

i wont post it, as it will only encourage those with an axe to grind, to go and look, and then return with further sharpened knives.

 

but the pictures on the facebook page, certainly are quite detailed and not bad.

 

Well I provided  an image a page or two back from their Facebook page. There certainly aren’t any number of quality images on that page showing the range of images ‘we’ normally see from established manufacturers. The reason why you won’t provide a link is because the typical images aren’t there. Things like good quality shots of bogies, underframe, inside the wagon. Very different to the approach Hattons/Oxford used on the ICI bogie hoppers.
 

It’s entirely up to KR what images they show of any of their EP’s, but if they’re wanting reasonable feedback from potential customers, better, and more images of the EP’s is an effective way of doing it. 

[jonhall]

 

 

If RMweb had existed in the 1980's it would have been full of moaning about the standard of British models and unfavourably comparing their ringfield motors and tender drives to the continental norm's of loco drive, or all wheel drive from a central can motor, it would also have been full of those moaning that the market wouldn't pay for that. * 

 

Little by little things improved with Bachman, and a big step change when Hornby moved it production to the Far East, this gave modellers that high fidelity, and and demonstrated to manufacturers that the market would bear higher prices for it. I'm sure a number of those pressing for a higher standard are doing so because we remember what came before, and don't want to see the hobby revert back to 'toy trains'.

 

Current production methods have resulted in the 'democratisation' of model railway manufacture, so that anyone prepared to stump up the cash can get a model produced by a factory in China, who might specialise in toy train manufacture, but don't really care what they produce, provided that the customer pays. 

 

What we have seen is a range of outcomes, from the very well researched and funded, that give very high quality models, to the mediocre. We have also seen a individual release a scattergun 'wishlist' of things he would like to produce (and then be invited to leave his then employer because they couldn't afford his ambitions) who then went it alone, and despite claiming to be 'only at a fraction of his capacity to manage projects' went down the tubes with creditors money (for the second time).

 

KR models has not yet delivered anything (good or bad) but some of the signs indicate that 'good enough' is all that he is aiming for, rather than aspiring for 'great', and I don't think there is anything wrong with giving him feedback on that, its as least as useful as fanboy 'its only an EP', although I concede, I doubt its much fun to read.

 

Jon 

 

*I'm sure you won't have to read many back issues of the letters pages of '80's model railway magazines of the time before this subject came up, but the editors did at least have control of how often they published them!

[Johann Marsbar]

56 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

@KR Models off the wall question, but where was Carrington Colliery?  I have been trying to find it and Google is coming up blank, did it have another name?

 

Only Carrington I know in that general area is close to the delightful Manchester suburb of Partington, which has a large chemical works but nothing on the OS map to show remains of any mining activity.

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

@KR Models off the wall question, but where was Carrington Colliery?  I have been trying to find it and Google is coming up blank, did it have another name?

 

A mis-spelling of Warrington, where the FFPS line came off, and it's generic local collieries?

 

Mike.

[Johann Marsbar]

15 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

A mis-spelling of Warrington, where the FFPS line came off, and it's generic local collieries?

 

Mike.

 

I thought most of the coal, certainly in the 1970's (the Power Station opened in 1971) came over Woodhead from the South Yorkshire coalfield?

I've got photos in the 1980's though at both Winwick & Warrington where the MGR traffic is coming down from the Wigan direction and it then  reversed at Arpley sidings.

 

Bit off topic for Consett ore traffic though....

[KR Models]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

A mis-spelling of Warrington, where the FFPS line came off, and it's generic local collieries?

 

Mike.

Not a mis-spelling. Its meant to be from Carrington in the Greater Manchester area. Trying to pry some more info from him now.

Edited January 4, 2021 by KR Models
Incorrect information.

[adb968008]

7 hours ago, jonhall said:

 

I quoted ADB968008 who called it 'only an EP' - and my inverted comma's were there to highlight the ONLY bit, because the EP stage isn't an 'only' point,  it is a HUGE milestone/decision point.

 

The EP should be (and in this case probably is) the final chance, 'catch the complete cock-up stage before pressing go on production' stage. By the time the EP arrives (and images are shared by the manufacturer on any platform) that's a pretty good indication of what is going to be made 99.9+. I don't think the EP is a 3d print, its complete parts made from the production tooling but hand assembled to prove it all works.

 

Any changes are going to be limited to functional becaue it has to be changed (e.g. it won't go around corners) or easy (ie cheap) additions - like adding the odd missing rivet. It is WAY PAST the point of adding (for instance) interior detail - that's a start again change which has huge cost implications.

 

Jon

lots of strong words there... : only, huge, final, way past, start again....

 

So maybe lets step back...

(all pictures below are links, and are from elsewhere in the forum, not mine).

 

below is the 1st EP of the DJ J94

 

note the tanks.. it ends prematurely, its a two piece tank, with a very unsightly seam line running the length of it... its 2 pieces.

 

here is the tooling for it...

note the A side interior, (left) you can see where the bottom of the tank is leading to that line... (that ridge)

 

After evaluating that EP DJ said he needed to replace that block, to remove the line.

iirc (I cannot find the post), but I recall him saying it cost £5k.

 

(How much I believe about what DJ says about cost, is a different thing, but fact is, he changed it, and whatever the cost of it, it was not so prohibitive as to be worthwhile.)

 

(Final.. no seam line.. one piece tank)

 

Nothing is final, nothing is huge, nothing is start again, nothing is way past.

 

yes it costs money, but the model is only an EP.

is it better to be done correctly before tooling, absolutely. Is it too late.. no.

its not the first or the last model to need changes or replacement to a slide or a block.

if it shipped in the box like that.. then and only then its too late.

note this EP of the Rails Terrier, no one spotted the cab back slide going right upto the roof and no one raised objections,.. yet the big bad gap is plain to see... Had someone spotted this, a recommendation to make the cab rear finish under the cab roof would have been a good one.

 

EPs arent panaceas either.

 

 

if no one spots it, then you cant assume its an issue either, yet post release many torches were burned at Rails’s door at “how dare they”.

The decision is, how much does it cost to change, will it result in greater sales.

if the revenue is higher than the cost its worthwhile.

 

(i’ll not mention dimples vs rivets..  those of you who know what I mean..just smile).

i hope that explains where I am coming from, without need of jumping from your seat and start screaming at the screen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by adb968008

[cctransuk]

18 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

below is the 1st EP of the DJ J94 .......

 

After evaluating that EP DJ said he needed to replace that left side block, to remove the line.

iirc (I cannot find the post), but I recall him saying it cost £5k

 

..... yes it costs money, but the model is only an EP.

 

 

..... and look how that school of business management ended !! I don't think that KRM will thank you for drawing comparisons with DJM!!!

 

Bottom line - KRM should have concentrated on getting their first model - GT3 - to the market, so that potential customers could come to realistic conclusions about their capabilities.

 

By putting out more and more projects; asking for financial backing for them; and repeatedly failing to meet their own targets for the delivery of anything; they have stumbled into the perfect storm of criticism from those who are more guarded in their dispensation of cash than you seem to be.

 

John Isherwood.

[96701]

3 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

..... and look how that school of business management ended !! I don't think that KRM will thank you for drawing comparisons with DJM!!!

 

Bottom line - KRM should have concentrated on getting their first model - GT3 - to the market, so that potential customers could come to realistic conclusions about their capabilities.

 

By putting out more and more projects; asking for financial backing for them; and repeatedly failing to meet their own targets for the delivery of anything; they have stumbled into the perfect storm of criticism from those who are more guarded in their dispensation of cash than you seem to be.

 

John Isherwood.

I take it you haven't dispensed any of your cash with KR Models?

[adb968008]

48 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

..... they have stumbled into the perfect storm of criticism from those who are more guarded in their dispensation of cash than you seem to be.

 

John Isherwood.

How much did you pay for that rtr Hornby Clan you subsequently decided to repaint on 6th April 2018 ?

 

£294 wasn't it ?

(You took a kicking for that, and I actually defended you !)

 

 

 

i’ll quote your words..

Quote

It's very easy for certain members to post their sarcasm when they think that they don't know the person in question; but I don't think that they like it when they are 'called-out'!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Before throwing stones, make sure the greenhouse windows are open.

 

I’m not twisting words or comparing KR to DJ.. I was just trying to explain my viewpoint on “only an EP” using available examples.

 

I would guess every manufacturer at some point has had to retool based on an EP at some stage.

Edited January 4, 2021 by adb968008

[jonhall]

32 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

lots of strong words there... : only, huge, final, way past, start again....

i hope that explains where I am coming from, without need of jumping from your seat and start screaming at the screen.

 

I'm sorry, I have tried to simplify my language and add stressing because I felt my 'only' wasn't interpreted in the way I had intended it to be.

 

My position is that NORMALLY the EP is REALLY close to the finished article, its usually produced to 'validate' that everything correct, and occasionally it will highlight the sort of problem that your examples illustrate well.

 

KR seem to be suggesting that they are using it it more as an 'experimental prototype' to which there will be additional builds - which isn't the conventional way of doing it because it isn't a cheap way of doing things that. Most manufacturers commissioners* do at least one EP because whilst its expensive, its still cheaper than getting a container of duds turn up at Felixstowe, but most will try to only do one because it's more expensive (and slower) than doing the fine tuning in CAD or rapid prototype (3d print).

 

Dave Jones 'pioneered' the sharing of CAD and EP's, but I remain sceptical as to whether it was really to solicit feedback, or just 'advertise' his product.

 

* There are of course at least two parties in the manufacturer, the commissioner who wants the model produced, and the factory that makes them, there may also be a tool maker and of CAD designer, and/or other roles that I've not thought of. The factory that actually does the moulding/assembly will also want to check the functional parameters -  does it release from the mould etc.

 

Jon

[cctransuk]

Just now, 96701 said:

I take it you haven't dispensed any of your cash with KR Models?

 

No - but I have placed an EOI for one of their projects.

 

When, and if, GT3 is in general circulation, I will come to a conclusion as to whether I wish to purchase a future KRM model.

 

Let it be clearly understood - I have nothing against KRM; they just seem to be particularly adept at putting themselves in a questionable light.

 

My money is hard-earned - I don't dish it out on a whim and a promise!

 

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

How much did you pay for that Hornby Clan you subsequently repainted on 6th April 2018 ?

 

£294 wasnt it ?

 

 

 

i’ll quote your words..

 

Before throwing stones, make sure the greenhouse windows are open.

 

What the h*ll has that got to do with anything?!?

 

I paid what the market demanded at that time to obtain a model which I wanted - perhaps you can explain how that has any bearing on whether or not KRM have a sound business model?

 

John Isherwood.