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Multiple EMU formations - help requested


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Have just been reading a review of Bachmann's soon to be released 2-HAP (HM 161) and it mentions that the prototype was geared to allow it to run with the 4-CEPs and 4-BEPs (also to be released shortly), and later with the 4-VEPs (fortunately outside my "window" so don't need to worry about correcting the Hornby model!)

 

I've read that 2-BILs and 2-HALs ran in multiple and also with each other; I have those from Hornby plus a Bachmann 2-EPB.

 

Right now, I have two 4-CEPs and one each of 2-BIL, 2-HAL and 2-EPB, plus a (Bachmann) MLV (and, of course, a (Hornby) 5-BEL - well, which SR 3rd rail modeller doesn't?!). I know I can run the MLV with the 4-CEPs (and eventually the 4-BEP) but would/could a 4-CEP be strengthened by a 2 car EMU other than the 2-HAP? My knowledge of these units is gleaned from magazine articles and the interweb - as a born and bred Northerner I have no experience or personal knowledge of these things whatsoever! 

 

I may be planning to model a completely fictitious station, but I at least want train formations to be (something like) believable, even if I may end up running stock inappropriate for my setting.*

 

Thanks in advance for any illumination or suggestions for further reading!

 

Steve S

 

* FYI, imagine the geographical location of Newhaven Harbour but that's where any similarity to reality ends for Broadchurch Marine (working title)

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There were certain rules when mixing different types of units, with all of the EP type units being compatible electrically. The limits were to do with the gearing and also with the numebr of traction motors.

HAPs, as mentioned, had express gearing for a 90 mph top service speed, and two traction motors per unit, so didn't tax the electrical index if added to a couple of CEP/BEP/CIG/BIG/VEP units, which all had similar ratings and gearing, with two 2 HAP units equalling one of those other units. I'll come to MLVs shortly.

2 or 4 EPB units were only geared for 75 mph, with a few exceptions. Within the types, they could work in any combinations up to 10 or even 12 cars, with station platform lengths mostly being the limiting factor.

If it was desired to run one or more non-express EPBs with one or more express-geared units, the top speed was required to be limited to 75 mph, unless two-thirds of the traction motors in the combined set are express geared, in which case they are permitted to run up to 90 mph.

The MLVs have two traction motors for a single car, so twice the power to weight of a 2 EPB or 2 HAP/SAP. That's fine if added to a pair of CEP/BEP units (and later, VEPs as well). It was OK even with three such units, but it was really pushing the electrical index when run with three CEP/BEPs plus two MLVs (a total of 14 cars, something I remember observing regularly in the earlier 1960s). The SR came up with TLVs to alleviate this a bit, but then there were the problems of running round the TLVs, which had no driving cabs. It did keep the electrical power within the limits though.

It was electrical power limits that also meant that 4 REP units could not run in multiple with each other, even though they were perfectly compatible. Two REPs together probably would have tripped all the circuit breakers within miles.

For realistic formations, you can mix your CEPs and BEPs with HAPs and EPBs. For model purposes, you probably wouldn't notice excessive speeds. As far as the Bachmann models go, the gearing is the same, and generally the motor characteristics match each other well too. I frequently run two or three EPB units together (in a DCC consist), and two CEPs with an MLV with no problems. I have on a couple of occasions run three CEPs and an MLV, but can't sustain this as they are too long for my storage loops in this formation. It does look impressive though.

As an aside, the only Bulleid style units with express gearing were the 36 2 HAP units built using ex-SR 2 NOL underframes.


I have seen photos and videos of CEP/VEPs in multiple with HAPs and EPBs in the same trains. They would have been subject to the two-thirds rule for express running speeds, unless the EPBs were any of the limited number with express gearing.

As another aside, running the Hornby units together also works well, but mixing Hornby and Bachmann units takes a lot of fiddling with speed profiles (using DCC) to get them to play nicely together. I tried this with a VEP/CEP combination, with not entirely satisfactory results.
 

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"At least 50% mainline" is the phrase used in the Electrified Lines Instructions, I think. So a CEP or BEP with a 2- or 4-EPB is ok, but not 6-EPB. The problem was that it would overheat the motors on the CEP. A small number of 4-EPBs - not so far available RTR - were regeared to 90 mph running. 5357/8 come to mind, used on the 6.47 Eastbourne to Victoria and 17.51 return in the '70s. 

 

The Bils and Hals were incompatible with any of the other EMUs currently available RTR. 

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5 hours ago, SRman said:

If it was desired to run one or more non-express EPBs with one or more express-geared units, the top speed was required to be limited to 75 mph, unless two-thirds of the traction motors in the combined set are express geared, in which case they are permitted to run up to 90 mph.

If there was any 75 mph stock in the formation then the whole train would be restricted to 75 mph 

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Thank you SRman for the modelling-friendly advice, and to Oldddudders, Dagwortgh and griffgriff for their input.

 

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

The Bils and Hals were incompatible with any of the other EMUs currently available RTR. 

 

If I understand correctly, though, Bils and Hals could run together though? (Which SRman says is okay in model form because they are both Hornby motored).

 

Obviously, I will want (when funds permit) to add 2-HAP units to my roster, but at £250 a throw RRP it may be a while! On eBay at the moment Bachmann 4-CEP units are selling for as little as £88 - half what I paid for a second hand set about six months ago, and £50 cheaper than my last eBay purchase of a second set! Are people perhaps off-loading them for funds to buy the 2-HAPs I wonder, or perhaps in anticipation of the forthcoming 4-BEPs? 2-BILs and 2-HALs are also selling for around £110 each brand new, which makes £250 seem even dearer in comparison.

 

What is also clear is that for me to be able to do this effectively, I need to think about swapping to DCC in order to run consists of multiple units. So, I guess I had better start planning DCC compatible pointwork and electrics for my future layout!

 

Steve S

 

 

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Yes, Bils and Hals worked together ok. 

 

I'm not sure DCC is necessary for multiple unit workings, although it can provide more amps if needed than some DC controllers. And if you wish to split and join units in service, then DCC makes that a lot simpler to accomplish realistically. As for pointwork, the best practices for DC also work splendidly for DCC, so no extra complexity or cost may be needed really. 

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DCC is not necessary for multiple operation where the mechanisms are very similar in characteristics, hence my comments regarding mixing Hornby VEPs into the Bachmann CEP formations, where the motors are not well matched. That's where DCC provides some advantages, allowing motor running characteristics to be adjusted to more closely match each other.

Yes the BIL and HAL stock were run interchangeably in real life, and the Hornby versions do run nicely together. I have run from two up to five units together.

Here are a couple of my older videos: the BILs one dates from 2014, and that for the CEPs and MLV dates from 2015 - both vids taken before the upper level was operational, so using the LT underground tracks.

 

 

 

 

Edited by SRman
Aded info and corrected typing.
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2 hours ago, Dagworth said:

If there was any 75 mph stock in the formation then the whole train would be restricted to 75 mph 

 

I disagree - see Olddudders' comment before yours and after my original post.

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The electric index limit SR Man refers to was '16'. A 2 car unit was rated 2, a 4 bep, big, cig, vep veg etc.. was rated at 4. A 4 rep was rated at 14. A class 73 was rated at 7. Therefore, a rep could run with a 2epb with both under power (and restricted to 75mph for the epb). A 4 vep and 1x cl 73 was rated at 11 so was fine too (again speed restricted to 90mph if 73/1 and 75mph if a 73/0). 2x cl 73's both on electric power plus a 4 car emu (vep, cig etc..) was over rated at 18 and so one unit had have traction motors isolated. 

 

Hooe this makes sense? It was a great, easy to understand system. 

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2 hours ago, SRman said:

 

I disagree - see Olddudders' comment before yours and after my original post.

You may disagree, as someone who drove them I can assure you I am correct on this 

 

Andi

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10 hours ago, SRman said:


It was electrical power limits that also meant that 4 REP units could not run in multiple with each other, even though they were perfectly compatible. Two REPs together probably would have tripped all the circuit breakers within miles.
 

Yes you could, been there and done it, you just simply cut out one DMS on each unit, this facility being available on REP's expressly for this purpose ..

 

Meld

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From my regular spotting days at Ashford in the 1970s/80s, I don't remember 2 DVTs with a 12-car CEP/BEP formation on the Victoria boat trains (which was their regular working). One DVT seemed to be the default, making 13 cars. 

 

In the sidings adjacent to Ashford station would be a whole bunch of 2-HAPs which were used during peak time services, and these used to head north on a regular basis after about 3:30pm, often in 8-car sets. 

 

I never saw a working EPB as far from London as Ashford in those days; the odd one appeared on its way to/from Chart Leacon, but that was for maintenance purposes. 

 

4-VEPs would be found on terminating services from various terminals via Maidstone in the 1970s, and became more regular on the main line while the CEPs were being refurbished at Swindon, (I even saw a *very* occasional 4-CIG during this period). 

 

I don't know your precise period or layout location, but if you wish to run EPBs you would need to concentrate on the outer suburban area mostly northwest of Tonbridge or possibly Paddock Wood. 

Edited by jonny777
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1 hour ago, jonny777 said:

From my regular spotting days at Ashford in the 1970s/80s, I don't remember 2 DVTs with a 12-car CEP/BEP formation on the Victoria boat trains (which was their regular working). One DVT seemed to be the default, making 13 cars. 

 

In the sidings adjacent to Ashford station would be a whole bunch of 2-HAPs which were used during peak time services, and these used to head north on a regular basis after about 3:30pm, often in 8-car sets. 

 

I never saw a working EPB as far from London as Ashford in those days; the odd one appeared on its way to/from Chart Leacon, but that was for maintenance purposes. 

 

4-VEPs would be found on terminating services from various terminals via Maidstone in the 1970s, and became more regular on the main line while the CEPs were being refurbished at Swindon, (I even saw a *very* occasional 4-CIG during this period). 

 

I don't know your precise period or layout location, but if you wish to run EPBs you would need to concentrate on the outer suburban area mostly northwest of Tonbridge or possibly Paddock Wood. 

 

I think you mean MLVs not DVTs ...

 

There's a picture here of 2 MLVs on a boat train, although I suspect it didn't happen very often!

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5953484585/in/album-72157629191176988/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5954043520/in/album-72157629191176988/

 

And here are a couple of 4-EPBs at Ramsgate

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/8234966916/in/album-72157629191176988/

Edited by RFS
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8 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

"At least 50% mainline" is the phrase used in the Electrified Lines Instructions, I think. So a CEP or BEP with a 2- or 4-EPB is ok, but not 6-EPB. The problem was that it would overheat the motors on the CEP. A small number of 4-EPBs - not so far available RTR - were regeared to 90 mph running. 5357/8 come to mind, used on the 6.47 Eastbourne to Victoria and 17.51 return in the '70s. 

 

The Bils and Hals were incompatible with any of the other EMUs currently available RTR. 

WHen I was commuting out of Victoria in the early 1990s a number of the Chatham main line services were made up to 12 coaches using EPBs added to CEP/VEP combinations - these were the express gear ratio ones and ran at line speed for the main line units. It was a long way to Ramsgate on one of those....

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Just now, andyman7 said:

WHen I was commuting out of Victoria in the early 1990s a number of the Chatham main line services were made up to 12 coaches using EPBs added to CEP/VEP combinations - these were the express gear ratio ones and ran at line speed for the main line units. It was a long way to Ramsgate on one of those....

EPBs or 4CAPs? I can remember working CAP stock on those but not EPBs

 

Andi

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

EPBs or 4CAPs? I can remember working CAP stock on those but not EPBs

 

Andi

 

 

 

The CAPs were used too but as Olddudders said there were some BR style 4EPBs that were fitted with express gear ratios (they had a little 'e' after the number in my Platform 5 spotters book). The very reason it sticks in my mind is because it was the only time I've ever travelled on these units as part of a main line consist and at main line speeds.

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8 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

A small number of 4-EPBs - not so far available RTR - were regeared to 90 mph running. 5357/8 come to mind, used on the 6.47 Eastbourne to Victoria and 17.51 return in the '70s. 

Here's your quote above in relation to EPBs, I rode on them in the early 1990s. But I wasn't quoting in connection with any other EMU types.

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11 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Here's your quote above in relation to EPBs, I rode on them in the early 1990s. But I wasn't quoting in connection with any other EMU types.

But my point was that 5357/8 were regeared specifically to run in mainline service. There was no reference to the max speed to be observed when other EPBs ran with mainline stock. 

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2 hours ago, RFS said:

There's a picture here of 2 MLVs on a boat train, although I suspect it didn't happen very often

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5954043520/in/album-72157629191176988/

 

Hi Robert - that second photograph clearly shows a second MLV! I guess that means I need a second MLV just so I can occasionally run a "bigger" boat train consist!!

 

Currently I have planned for my 'boat train' platform to take a loco, 8 pullman coaches and 2 utility vans as a representative length... or squeeze in 2 5-BELs ... and I knew I could run 2 x 4-CEP + MLV ...

 

But now seeing 4CEP+4BEP+4CEP+MLV ... and the possibility of 2 x MLV ....

 

Oh boy! Gonna need a bigger platform!

 

Steve S

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22 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

Thank you SRman for the modelling-friendly advice, and to Oldddudders, Dagwortgh and griffgriff for their input.

 

 

...... 2-BILs and 2-HALs are also selling for around £110 each brand new, which makes £250 seem even dearer in comparison.

 

Ah, the cost of “niceties” such as internal lighting etc.
How much reduction in price might be effected if these items were optional? Nice to have but not strictly essential. A lot of the time, model railways are operated in good strong lighting conditions making interior lighting, and illuminated headcode panels less noticeable. If the ambient lighting is reduced, the finer details then become difficult to appreciate. It is only us who can decide, but at what cost. For those of us on a budget, an 8 HAP (if so desired) for a grand is probably out of reach. 


What would be really useful (I’ve mentioned this before) is a removable cover or section held by a small screw, in the model’s underframe for decoder access rather than possibly “mullering” the bodywork.

 

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