Proceedings of the Castle Aching Parish Council, 1905

[CKPR]

1 hour ago, Clearwater said:

 The descriptions of why Britain wanted an export led boom in the 50s are interesting and, in my view, give rise to some of the myths of going back to when Britain made stuff myths and how Britain won the war that we’ve seen reheated ad nauseam in recent election campaigns.

 

 I'd also recommend David Edgerton's "England and the aeroplane'  for a similar refutation of the 'declinism' myth that has become dominant in the economic history of 20th century Britain.

[CKPR]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

These things and the parties that were behind them have their roots in Nonconformist religion

I seem to recall Harold Wilson saying that the Labour Party owed more to Methodism than Marxism.

[Clearwater]

2 minutes ago, CKPR said:

 I'd also recommend David Edgerton's "England and the aeroplane'  for a similar refutation of the 'declinism' myth that has become dominant in the economic history of 20th century Britain.

I’ve not read that but it’s a familiar argument from his “Britain’s War Machine” where he argues, plausibly, against the rose tinted history of plucky ill-prepared Britain against the barbarian might of Nazi Germany that actually Britain had been remarkably organised through the mid late 30s with a planned response to the growing German threat.  For example, the origins of the spitfire, hurricane, Lancaster etc can all be seen several years before the war.  Equally, the organisation of the RAF allowed a rapid expansion with a core seeded from the permanents, short service commissions to boost the auxiliaries.

 

Interestingly, the famous Britain alone cartoon published post Dunkirk was satirised at the time with a riposte published at the time saying “yes, just us and the billion people in the empire.”  Modern spin on 1930-1960 across appeasement, World War Two, Attlee and the post has a lot to answer for.

 

I think Overy argues that one of the reasons the Allies one wasn’t that their tech was better but their execution was more focused.  Common designs with simple parts produced on masse compared to German designs which though more advanced relied on overly complex logistics chains to service.  Exacerbated by each producer arguing directly to Hitler leading to a splintering of production and effort whereas the allies directed factories towards the successful designs of tanks/aircraft etc.

[Nearholmer]

Tech had relatively little to do with it. 
 

Access to raw materials, access to supplies of people to deploy in production, logistics and combat, and organising ability. And, a very high percentage of all of that due to the Yanks.

 

As an aside, Britain was amazingly good at ‘total war’ in WW2, turning over huge chunks of production, logistics etc from peacetime to wartime activity comparatively quickly. 

 

 

[CKPR]

5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

As an aside, Britain was amazingly good at ‘total war’ in WW2, turning over huge chunks of production, logistics etc from peacetime to wartime activity comparatively quickly. 

 

Indeed, industry, planning and organisation wins wars (and defeats pandemics ?!) , which I think is Edgerton's point.  Dare I suggest that this came rather more readily to us in WW2 as we had historically tended  to shun the empty metaphysical nonsense that our continental friends and foes were so keen on  - we formerly knew that rhetoric, ideology and nationalistic bluster achieves precisely nothing,  a lesson we are currently re-learning the hard way. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by CKPR

[Nearholmer]

One can only hope.

 

Back to the socialism (or rather socialist state) thing: Britain was actually very competent as centrally-planned, democracy-lite directed economies go, from about 1940-53, and the pressures of war seem to have achieved what was, by the standards of the day, a quite widespread and fairly effective social levelling.

 

Some of it was ‘Tommy Atkins Affect’, of course.

 

I’m not advocating total war as a means of social transformation, just observing, and just wondering what we would be capable of now if we truly got our heads around the threat posed by environmental un-sustainability.

[wagonman]

18 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

I have a view of Socialism based upon its history. 

 

But, call the sane, social contract you advocate what you will.  I suspect you and I are disagreeing more over what to call it than over what should be in it. 

 

Anarchism, on the other hand, seems to have an increasing appeal .... ! 

 

I still maintain that your view of Socialism – as opposed to Communism – is based on histories written by Capitalism. 

 

But as you say, we are disagreeing over nomenclature rather than substance.

 

Anarchism? I was much taken with it during my school days – which didn't sit too well with the conservative/Anglican/public school ethos – but as Nearholmer says of Socialism, Anarchism "would work wonderfully, if it wasn’t for people."

 

 

[CKPR]

Right, all this talk of industry and planning has minded me to get out the 10 and 15 thou N/S, marker pen, scriber & Olfa scrawker and put a new blade in the piercing saw...

 

[Caley Jim]

10 minutes ago, wagonman said:

"would work wonderfully, if it wasn’t for people."

Reminds me of the episode of 'Yes Prime Minister' where he was visiting a new hospital where the administration was a model of efficiency.  Mind you, they weren't seeing any patients!

 

Jim

[CKPR]

8 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

Reminds me of the episode of 'Yes Prime Minister' where he was visiting a new hospital where the administration was a model of efficiency.  Mind you, they weren't seeing any patients!

 

It's always worked for North Korea.

[ian]

It might be me being old and cynical but if Boris's team haven't yet managed to explain how to wear a mask to him in a way that he can grasp I somehow doubt that he has a good understanding of all that science that he tells us that we are following.

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by ian

[Regularity]

On 28/11/2020 at 23:26, Clearwater said:

actually Britain had been remarkably organised through the mid late 30s with a planned response to the growing German threat.  For example, the origins of the spitfire, hurricane, Lancaster etc can all be seen several years before the war.

From which I draw support for the conclusion that what Chamberlain did in Munich in 1938 was buy us a bit more time as we weren’t yet sufficiently well-armed to be able to stand up against German aggression. The difference between most politicians of the day and Churchill was that they didn’t say much, but were very busy preparing us, whilst he said a lot, but wasn’t in a position to do much (having made himself popular with the public, but not with other politicians).

I have long taken the view that major stresses between European “powers” made conflict inevitable during the early 20th century and that the various territories outside of Europe occupied by them meant it would be worldwide in scope, but that WW1 happened when it did and why it did was down to a series of incompetent blunders, reinforced only by the failure to get things properly sorted out in the Treaty of Versailles, which merely created a breathing space before hostilities were resumed, and which didn’t end until 1990 with the signing of the peace agreement between a United German state and the former allied nations of France, UK, USA and USSR. And 30 years later we can again see the rise of troublesome populist nationalism, pretending to be “protecting ourselves” rather than being honest about it being a game of “blame the immigrant workforce for coming here and working hard for less money, to help keep prices down”. Boris, Vladimir, Donald, Mateusz, Boyko, and many others are examples of these, either directly or through their associated platforms.

 

It’s all rather sad, which is why my modelling interests are becoming more and more fixated on the Edwardian era.

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Regularity said:

From which I draw support for the conclusion that what Chamberlain did in Munich in 1938 was buy us a bit more time as we weren’t yet sufficiently well-armed to be able to stand up against German aggression. The difference between most politicians of the day and Churchill was that they didn’t say much, but were very busy preparing us, whilst he said a lot, but wasn’t in a position to do much (having made himself popular with the public, but not with other politicians).

 

Churchill's contribution, aided I believe by his never being fully sober, was to insist on, and maintaining the public morale for, keeping going in 1940 - a Waterloo moment, holding the ground until reinforcements arrived - in this case, the Russians rather than the Prussians. He also understood with the complete clarity of someone with an American mother, that US involvement was absolutely essential, even though it would inevitably be the end of Great Britain as a world power.

[Annie]

I was reading the Telegraph this afternoon (I have an on-line subscription) and I see that shops are going to be open 24/7 in the lead up to Christmas, but bars and restaurants still have to stay shut.  Has the English government, - and here I use the term 'government' very loosely, - got rocks in their heads, or else a very squishy form of porridge?  This is madness, utter madness, - but I suppose you all knew that already.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Annie
an awful error

[Caley Jim]

In this context, for 'UK' please read 'English'. 

 

Jim 

[TheQ]

On 19/11/2020 at 13:32, drmditch said:

 

Language?

 

The Welsh who were the Native Britains at the time, had their Language heavily influenced by Latin..

In India English is recognised as an official language..

Edited November 30, 2020 by TheQ

[Annie]

2 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

In this context, for 'UK' please read 'English'. 

 

Jim 

Forgive me Jim I shall amend my post.

[TheQ]

On 19/11/2020 at 13:27, drmditch said:

Re: Genetic Markers

This may be wrong, but I  think I have read that the genetic differences between 'vikings' and 'saxons', all peoples from the east side of what we now call the North Sea and used to call the German Ocean, are very hard to distinguish.

That would be because the Danish  / Scandinavians controlled a large bit of Northern Germany for a period and Saxony abuts Schleswig-Holstein an area disputed by Denmark and The German states...

Edited November 30, 2020 by TheQ

[Andy Hayter]

12 minutes ago, Annie said:

I was reading the Telegraph this afternoon (I have an on-line subscription) and I see that shops are going to be open 24/7 in the lead up to Christmas, but bars and restaurants still have to stay shut.  Has the Uk government, - and here I use the term 'government' very loosely, - got rocks in their heads, or else a very squishy form of porridge?  This is madness, utter madness, - but I suppose you all knew that already.

 

Justr a proposal at present.

 

I can see why you would see it as madness but I think there is some sanity behind it.

Social mixing spreads the virus.  Pubs and restaurants are there fore likely to help spread the virus - although the statistics as far as they go do not show any clear evidence of that.  Of course if they are shut you cannot get the evidence.

 

But I digress.  Shops also are likely to result in social mixing but perhaps to not the extent as restaurants and pubs.  I would guess that the government are hoping that beig open longer will mean spending more and therefore a positive kick for the economy.  In reality most people have a limited budget and once it is spent, it has gone - even if 100% of it was on plastic.

 

So if to a first approximation people are going to spend the same amount, having shops open 24/7 will mean they are less crowded (Xmas is always a nightmare) and the chances of spread are reduced.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

I can see why you would see it as madness but I think there is some sanity behind it.

Social mixing spreads the virus.  Pubs and restaurants are there fore likely to help spread the virus - although the statistics as far as they go do not show any clear evidence of that.  Of course if they are shut you cannot get the evidence.

 

But I digress.  Shops also are likely to result in social mixing but perhaps to not the extent as restaurants and pubs.  I would guess that the government are hoping that beig open longer will mean spending more and therefore a positive kick for the economy.  In reality most people have a limited budget and once it is spent, it has gone - even if 100% of it was on plastic.

 

So if to a first approximation people are going to spend the same amount, having shops open 24/7 will mean they are less crowded (Xmas is always a nightmare) and the chances of spread are reduced.

 

I suppose the issue is dwell time and hence exposure time. I find that when shopping under almost any circumstances* my aim is to be in and out as quickly as possible - though I understand that there are some sections of society whose shopping culture is different though as Philp Green's employees are discovering to their cost, that is a declining group. Whereas the point of pubs and restaurants is to linger socially. 

 

*Model shops are an exception though they are few and far between. I don't think I've actually been in one since Hobbyrail in Sutton Coldfield closed.

[Annie]

I supposed New Zealand's locked borders and high vigilance approach has strongly coloured my thinking about COVID-19.  As to how to deal with the present English situation where the borders were porous for far too long and still seem to be so that the plague got in and ran riot  I wouldn't know.

[Clearwater]

8 hours ago, Regularity said:

From which I draw support for the conclusion that what Chamberlain did in Munich in 1938 was buy us a bit more time as we weren’t yet sufficiently well-armed to be able to stand up against German aggression. The difference between most politicians of the day and Churchill was that they didn’t say much, but were very busy preparing us, whilst he said a lot, but wasn’t in a position to do much (having made himself popular with the public, but not with other politicians).

 

 

Yes, I think there is a revisionist movement regarding Chamberlain's position and motivations.  Of course by dying in 1940, he never really got to put his side of the story and history got written by the victors of the Churchil/Eden faction.  Stepping back for a moment, he may well have been in the early stages of cancer in the latter stages of his premiership.  

[Andy Hayter]

19 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I suppose the issue is dwell time and hence exposure time. I find that when shopping under almost any circumstances* my aim is to be in and out as quickly as possible - though I understand that there are some sections of society whose shopping culture is different though as Philp Green's employees are discovering to their cost, that is a declining group. Whereas the point of pubs and restaurants is to linger socially. 

 

*Model shops are an exception though they are few and far between. I don't think I've actually been in one since Hobbyrail in Sutton Coldfield closed.

 

Dwell time and proximity.   In a restaurant for example you will probably spend at least one hour in close proximity to those around your table and perhaps more importantly those on adjacent tables.  Distancing will help reduce spread but the length of time spent in a slightly extended proximity works against that.

[Nearholmer]

Annie

 

The Telegraph speaks largely to/for those who broadly support the present party of government, and is often used to fly kites, either by those in the same party as HMG in an attempt to influence HMG, or by HMG itself, to test the response of  the readership to policy options, or by HMG to give advance-flagging of intent to the population at large. So, its not anything like clear when it relates that something is going to happen whether what is meant is that the thing shall, will, might, could or, should happen.

 

In normal times, when the cafe at the supermarket is open, I sometimes treat myself to a coffee and a browse of several 'papers (two in particular make me so cross its best not to) and trying to decode The Telegraph can be quite interesting.

 

My gut response to the 24/7 shopping thing is that it is propobably something being punted by the shop-owners, attempting to nudge HMG in a particular direction, because they are in such dire straits due to lockdowns.

 

K

Edited November 30, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

The Telegraph speaks largely to/for those who broadly support the present party of government, and is often used to fly kites, either by those in the same party as HMG in an attempt to influence HMG, or by HMG itself, to test the response of  the readership to policy options, or by HMG to give advance-flagging of intent to the population at large. So, its not anything like clear when it relates that something is going to happen whether what is meant is that the thing shall, will, might, could or, should happen.

 

I thought newspapers of that type usually had names like Pravda or Izvestia.