Proceedings of the Castle Aching Parish Council, 1905

[Nearholmer]

16 minutes ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

Too many fundamentalist religious groups who have a somewhat medieval view of the world. 

My flippant side periodically notices the close resemblance between the views of some Americans and the views of some of those in other countries that America goes to war with to ‘protect freedom’.

 

Mind you, Britain probably conscripted a fair few anti-semites to fight the Nazis, so we’ve got no room to talk.

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

20 minutes ago, Annie said:

The American default tendency to kill everybody who doesn't look like them has done them no favours at all when it comes to attempts to build bridges and establish diplomatic relations with former enemies.

 

Yes the big problem in American internal politics at the moment is the ascendancy of the White Evangelicals and their fake "pastors" in the Bible Belt. They have not even the slightest grasp of sanity or real politik. Utterly inward looking and the 21st century's equivalent of the Know Nothings of the 19th century. They thrived under Trump because they saw him as some surrogate saviour - which shows how crackers they really are. A small cluster of extremist Congress members on this far right are actively pushing to impeach Biden. It won't come to anything but they do have a following. They and MAGA formed the backbone of the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol.

 

The Americans are discovering that freedom of religion has its downsides. In most Western countries religion is tolerated but generally not encouraged to assert itself. Sort of like the C of E, provide annual fetes, scones and something for the Archbishop of Canterbury to manage and leave it at that. In America it seems that they think these loonies actually do have democratic rights. Personally I'm of the opinion that if in the assertion of your democratic rights you demonstrate that you're a sandwich short of a picnic then all bets are off - but's just me. The denizens of the American Bible Belt really are certifiably barking mad. 

 

So against that quite large bloc I can't see Americans actually rejigging their approach to foreign relations.

 

 

[Edwardian]

42 minutes ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

 

Yes the big problem in American internal politics at the moment is the ascendancy of the White Evangelicals and their fake "pastors" in the Bible Belt. They have not even the slightest grasp of sanity or real politik. Utterly inward looking and the 21st century's equivalent of the Know Nothings of the 19th century. They thrived under Trump because they saw him as some surrogate saviour - which shows how crackers they really are. A small cluster of extremist Congress members on this far right are actively pushing to impeach Biden. It won't come to anything but they do have a following. They and MAGA formed the backbone of the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol.

 

The Americans are discovering that freedom of religion has its downsides. In most Western countries religion is tolerated but generally not encouraged to assert itself. Sort of like the C of E, provide annual fetes, scones and something for the Archbishop of Canterbury to manage and leave it at that. In America it seems that they think these loonies actually do have democratic rights. Personally I'm of the opinion that if in the assertion of your democratic rights you demonstrate that you're a sandwich short of a picnic then all bets are off - but's just me. The denizens of the American Bible Belt really are certifiably barking mad. 

 

So against that quite large bloc I can't see Americans actually rejigging their approach to foreign relations.

 

 

 

Watch yourself there, or, come the Rapture, you won't have a seat on the last chopper out of Damnationville!

 

The US doesn't have freedom of religion; it's an unofficial theocracy. Not quite what the Founding Fathers had in mind, but, then, when it comes down to it, serves them jolly well right!

 

In contrast, England has an established church, but that has led to far more freedom in modern times because (a) it's an erastian system, so the institution of the church could ultimately be restrained by the State in the event of religious insanity, (b) we are a largely secular society, so, literally no one cares what fundamentalist twerps think anyway, and (c) it's the Church of England, for God's sake.  Not perfect and with its fair share of people with somewhat reactionary views, but, on the whole, is about as inoffensive as any organised religion has ever managed to be.  More tea, Vicar?   

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

13 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Watch yourself there, or, come the Rapture, you won't have a seat on the last chopper out of Damnationville!

 

The US doesn't have freedom of religion; it's an unofficial theocracy. Not quite what the Founding Fathers had in mind, but, then, when it comes down to it, serves them jolly well right!

 

In contrast, England has an established church, but that has led to far more freedom in modern times because (a) it's an erastian system, so the institution of the church could ultimately be restrained by the State in the event of religious insanity, (b) we are a largely secular society, so, literally no one cares what fundamentalist twerps think anyway, and (c) it's the Church of England, for God's sake.  Not perfect and with its fair share of people with somewhat reactionary views, but, on the whole, is about as inoffensive as any organised religion has ever managed to be.  More tea, Vicar?   

 

Perfectly put - perhaps if they'd just agreed to pay the tea tax they wouldn't be in the mess they are now ..... 

[alastairq]

I blame men!

 

The present issues in Afghanistan are down pretty much to men!

 

They must be a pretty insecure bunch to feel threatened by women actually learning something?

 

In fact I think the biggest issue with any religion stems from being male dominated.

As if males are actually afraid of females?

[drmditch]

Re:US religious history.

- Anti 'popish'/Irish riots

- Messrs Smith and Brigham Young and the Latter Day Saints.

- and a whole lot more.

Lynchings and burnings and mass-murder are part of the heritage of 'The Land of the Free'.

 

They built some very long single-track railways though.

 

Just been re-reading some 19th century history.

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

43 minutes ago, alastairq said:

I blame men!

 

The present issues in Afghanistan are down pretty much to men!

 

They must be a pretty insecure bunch to feel threatened by women actually learning something?

 

In fact I think the biggest issue with any religion stems from being male dominated.

As if males are actually afraid of females?

 

The inherent problem is that they gave everyone freedom of speech and opinion, before they checked if the people has sufficient education to exercise that intelligently. 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Malcolm 0-6-0

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

I blame men!

 

The present issues in Afghanistan are down pretty much to men!

 

They must be a pretty insecure bunch to feel threatened by women actually learning something?

 

In fact I think the biggest issue with any religion stems from being male dominated.

As if males are actually afraid of females?

 

Yes, it's hilarious, in a profoundly tragic way, how aligned US Christian Fundamentalists and the Taliban are in terms of their attitude to women.

 

58 minutes ago, drmditch said:

Re:US religious history.

- Anti 'popish'/Irish riots

- Messrs Smith and Brigham Young and the Latter Day Saints.

- and a whole lot more.

Lynchings and burnings and mass-murder are part of the heritage of 'The Land of the Free'.

 

They built some very long single-track railways though.

 

Just been re-reading some 19th century history.

 

I rather like Toby Frost's Space Captain Smith comedy sci-fi relief.  Very light reading for the mentally haggard. You'd recognise the New Edenites in the series; sunglasses, guns and religious intolerance.

 

35 minutes ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

 

The inherent problem is that they gave everyone freedom of speech and opinion, before they checked if the people has sufficient education to exercise that intelligently. 

 

 

 

 

The dilemma would seem to be this: Treat people like children and you infantilise them; treat them as grown-ups and their behaviour is infantile. 

 

Beware of paternalism, my children!

 

[Regularity]

The original European settlers in the USA went to escape persecution of their beliefs. This naturally leads to a degree of self-isolation: MAGA generally appeals to this mindset, and the only time they want to engage with the rest of the world is when the rest of the world “interferes” with their perceived self-interest.

 

But it’s worth remembering that, as but one example, the “Pilgrim Fathers” left Europe because during an era of intolerance, their Puritan beliefs were seen as too intolerant.

[rocor]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

The US doesn't have freedom of religion; it's an unofficial theocracy. Not quite what the Founding Fathers had in mind, but, then, when it comes down to it, serves them jolly well right!

 

I

 

It is what the Pilgrim Fathers had in mind that is at the heart of the problem. Of the 102 colonists on the Mayflower, 35 were members of the English Separatist Church (a radical faction of Puritanism). 

[Edwardian]

14 minutes ago, rocor said:

 

It is what the Pilgrim Fathers had in mind that is at the heart of the problem. Of the 102 colonists on the Mayflower, 35 were members of the English Separatist Church (a radical faction of Puritanism). 

 

Yes, the spin is that they left England in search of religious freedom.

 

That is not the same as religious tolerance.

 

The Puritans were right b*ggers, in my view, and what they really wanted was for everyone to see things their way. They were the ones who turned constitutional opposition to the Crown in the 1630s into a shooting war in the 1640s.

 

Also, imagine going to a Puritan party? 

 

So, what you have landing at Plymouth Rock is a bunch of extremist sectarian bigots, a third of whom were so bonkers they made the others worry. Not a great start. 

 

They wasted little time setting the tone for all subsequent settler relations with the indigenous population, not to mention 'Thanksgiving', the aftermath of which surely set new lows for ingratitude. 

 

My overall impression is of not very nuanced people with extreme and extremely inflexible particularist views. It's like taking a Trump rally and then founding  a nation with them. 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

A lot has happened since, and I don’t think there is anything in the US constitution, which is much more recent than the voyage of the the Mayflower, that determines that a the USA should become a brew-pot of bizarre belief-systems, so I think one needs to look at recent history too in order to explain it all.

 

FWIW, which is doubtless nothing, IMO part of the issue is that the US Civil War was never decisively concluded - the notional victors were too tolerant of the continuation of the attitudes and behaviours that characterised the notional losers.

[webbcompound]

3 hours ago, drmditch said:

They built some very long single-track railways though.

 

Which enabled them to smash trains together with surprising regularity. Though not surprising since instead of signalling they mostly seemed to employ a system that just involved guessing that the train in front had probably moved, or got out of the way. And an image search for "American train wreck" produces a disturbing number of modern ones implying that even with radios in cabs they don't appear to have completely got the hang of things.
 

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

the notional victors were too tolerant of the continuation of the attitudes and behaviours that characterised the notional losers.

 

I had to re-read that to make sure you were still talking about the US Civil War; at first I'd thought you'd moved on to BREXIT

 

1 hour ago, webbcompound said:

surprising regularity.

 

No one expects the Simon Dunkley!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Edwardian
spelling

[CKPR]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Yes, the spin is that they left England in search of religious freedom.

 

That is not the same as religious tolerance.

 

The Puritans were right b*ggers, in my view, and what they really wanted was for everyone to see things their way. They were the ones who turned constitutional opposition to the Crown in the 1630s into a shooting war in the 1640s.

 

Also, imagine going to a Puritan party? 

 

So, what you have landing at Plymouth Rock is a bunch of extremist sectarian bigots, a third of whom were so bonkers they made the others worry. Not a great start. 

 

They wasted little time setting the tone for all subsequent settler relations with the indigenous population, not to mention 'Thanksgiving', the aftermath of which surely set new lows for ingratitude. 

 

My overall impression is of not very nuanced people with extreme and extremely inflexible particularist views. It's like taking a Trump rally and then founding  a nation with them. 

 

 

 

 

Peter Ackroyd's "Milton in America" is an interesting re-imagining of 17th century America in which John Milton joins the colonists and although blind, he comes to see the intolerance and bigotry that stems from his high-minded principles and pursuit of religious purity when they are put into practice.

[Edwardian]

28 minutes ago, CKPR said:

 

Peter Ackroyd's "Milton in America" is an interesting re-imagining of 17th century America in which John Milton joins the colonists and although blind, he comes to see the intolerance and bigotry that stems from his high-minded principles and pursuit of religious purity when they are put into practice.

 

Paradise paved?

 

Meanwhile, in the news .... at least our Foreign Secretary has it all under control ...

 

Lax Britannica 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Edwardian

[Hroth]

28 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Lax Britannica 

 

Surely Enlax Britannia.....

[Northroader]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/donald-trump-ready-run-us-presidential-election-2024-9nj35fl3p

[Hroth]

5 minutes ago, Northroader said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/donald-trump-ready-run-us-presidential-election-2024-9nj35fl3p

Quote

I think you’ll like the answer, says Donald Trump

 

Only if it's "perhaps not"

 

[rocor]

38 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Surely Enlax Britannia.....

 

pustulis correptus. Britannia.

[monkeysarefun]

7 hours ago, Northroader said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/donald-trump-ready-run-us-presidential-election-2024-9nj35fl3p

Assuming  he still has some voters left.

 

 

[Annie]

47 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

Assuming  he still has some voters left.

 

 

That would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

 

22 confirmed cases here so far and genome testing has shown the infection was carried by an arrival from Australia.

[monkeysarefun]

24 minutes ago, Annie said:

22 confirmed cases here so far and genome testing has shown the infection was carried by an arrival from Australia.

Well... you did give us  Russell Crowe.

 

 

 

And Barnaby Joyce.

Edited August 19, 2021 by monkeysarefun

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

17 hours ago, Regularity said:

The original European settlers in the USA went to escape persecution of their beliefs. This naturally leads to a degree of self-isolation: MAGA generally appeals to this mindset, and the only time they want to engage with the rest of the world is when the rest of the world “interferes” with their perceived self-interest.

 

But it’s worth remembering that, as but one example, the “Pilgrim Fathers” left Europe because during an era of intolerance, their Puritan beliefs were seen as too intolerant.

 

Well MAGA seems to be fragmenting, there are a remaining lot of conventional MAGA Trump adherents,  and now a number of looney Congress men and women, Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene plus a few others, who have formed the America First Movement. Taylor Greene was kicked off committee work because she's a QAnon follower, Gaetz is being investigated for underage sex charges while the few others are just dumb. These claim to be the true Trumpites - so there is a schism in the GOP Conservative right.

 

This has caused the Republicans a lot of damage. Jenna Ellis who was the blonde second chair in Rudy Giuliani's fake hearing circus held after November 3 which sought to overturn the election by claiming voter fraud has publicly ditched the GOP because Ronna McDaniel the Chair of the GNC was discovered to have withheld funds from the Giuliani/Ellis hearing circus. Ellis is a real ultra Evangelical fundamentalist who now does commentary work on far right cable news. I earned some plaudits on Twitter when I suggested that Ellis might rename her breakaway GOP faction the Donner Party after a certain cannibalistic group who got stuck in the Rockies in the late 1840s in winter and were forced to dine off each other. 

 

Ironically MAGA grew out of the old TEA Party group led by another certifiable nut job, Michelle Bachmann who was in Congress for a couple of terms. Now MAGA is morphing into America First which besides the aforesaid Taylor Greene and Gaetz is composed of a small Congressional group of what were termed the "Dead-Enders" - these were the remnants of the TEA Party left when the TEA Party self-destructed after Bachmann became even too looney for them. America First was the name of the political movement formed in the 1920s by the KKK, the irony of this appears lost on the current America First movement. 

 

Whatever they call themselves America First are just populists playing of white fear and the usual Evangelical fundamentalism. The problem is that they attract a hell of a lot of people which probably tells us more than we ever wanted to know about the average education of the American public. Another irony is despite their claim to be the one true Trumpite faction, Trump has publicly supported Ronna McDaniel who, as I noted, held back funding to the Giuliani/Ellis hearing circus and also refuse to stump up money to fund Giuliani's current court woes of which being sued for $1.3Billion by Dominion is the least of them. So the cracks widen - American politics is fun to observe from the outside.

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

American politics is fun to observe from the outside.

 

But then its a case of working out what the safe distance outside is...