Advertising

[DIW]

17 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

It seems to affect some but not all. Which browser are you using?

I also see this on Firefox on a PC, but not on Opera or Brave on the same PC.

Hope that helps?

[bimble]

I suppose part of it is how you see RMWeb, as the experience, or part of the experience.  I came to RMWeb looking for a model/railway forum, knew nothing about BRM (apart from possibly seeing one in WHSmith).  Adverts have always been part of forums as they pay the bills without direct payment from members.  Now I'll be honest, none of the benefits of Gold Membership I would use.  I'm not a reader of BRM (I'm sure it's a wonderful magazine and all, just not interested), and I'm not a reader of digital magazine (so the archive isn't of interest), and the other benefits such as increased PM/image storage are things I don't need.  So for me the question becomes 'is £50 a year to get rid of pop-up ads worth it?'

 

But what it does mean is that my time on the forum, even to use it as a resource is dramatically down on what it was from before.  Adverts I don't mind, but pop-ups and especially auto-playing video pop-ups annoy me to the point where I don't know if I'm going to come back.  I've already stopped coming here when at home because the smaller screen on the laptop made it annoying.

 

I don't know how much  a subscribed member who has all these ads thrown in their general direction make towards the upkeep of the forums, but if there was a Silver Membership who's only benefit was no pop-ups for a few quid, sign me up as interested. (and I don't even mind the ads at the side, literally pop-ups and auto-playing video pop-ups)

 

I'm not going going, but the annoyance is greater than the joy for now so I'll see you in a bit.

[SteveCole]

17 minutes ago, bimble said:

I suppose part of it is how you see RMWeb, as the experience, or part of the experience.  I came to RMWeb looking for a model/railway forum, knew nothing about BRM (apart from possibly seeing one in WHSmith).  Adverts have always been part of forums as they pay the bills without direct payment from members.  Now I'll be honest, none of the benefits of Gold Membership I would use.  I'm not a reader of BRM (I'm sure it's a wonderful magazine and all, just not interested), and I'm not a reader of digital magazine (so the archive isn't of interest), and the other benefits such as increased PM/image storage are things I don't need.  So for me the question becomes 'is £50 a year to get rid of pop-up ads worth it?'

 

But what it does mean is that my time on the forum, even to use it as a resource is dramatically down on what it was from before.  Adverts I don't mind, but pop-ups and especially auto-playing video pop-ups annoy me to the point where I don't know if I'm going to come back.  I've already stopped coming here when at home because the smaller screen on the laptop made it annoying.

 

I don't know how much  a subscribed member who has all these ads thrown in their general direction make towards the upkeep of the forums, but if there was a Silver Membership who's only benefit was no pop-ups for a few quid, sign me up as interested. (and I don't even mind the ads at the side, literally pop-ups and auto-playing video pop-ups)

 

I'm not going going, but the annoyance is greater than the joy for now so I'll see you in a bit.

 

We're working on a 'silver' membership that includes a 'no ads' benefit.

[Simond]

does a user having an adblocker somehow get reported back to the advertiser (and if so, presumaby by means of cookies?) and if so, does that reduce the revenue to RMW?

 

It seems to me that if I go and make a cuppa during the adverts on the telly (or change channel or whatever) ITV (or whoever) doesn't lose out.

 

If RMW doesn't lose out, what's the issue with adblockers?

[AY Mod]

11 minutes ago, Simond said:

If RMW doesn't lose out, what's the issue with adblockers?

 

It does.

 

No ads = no revenue.

 

Some don't care that they're not contributing anything (if I knew where they lived I'd stare in their windows to watch telly so I didn't have to pay my licence) but there are some who could need to block them for performance or functionality*.

 

* But they're rarely ones that proudly proclaim they're blocking them.

[SteveCole]

13 minutes ago, Simond said:

does a user having an adblocker somehow get reported back to the advertiser (and if so, presumaby by means of cookies?) and if so, does that reduce the revenue to RMW?

 

It seems to me that if I go and make a cuppa during the adverts on the telly (or change channel or whatever) ITV (or whoever) doesn't lose out.

 

If RMW doesn't lose out, what's the issue with adblockers?

 

Using an ad-blocker means the advert is not shown and therefore reduces revenue to RMweb. We hope that once an 'ad-free' membership is launched users will use this as their ad-blocker

[Mike_Walker]

Ironically I seem to be getting ads for adblockers on RMweb recently!

[martin_wynne]

34 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Some don't care that they're not contributing anything

 

Hi Andy,

 

It's not really fair to say that such users are not contributing anything. Some of them may be posting valuable content which attracts your visitors and thereby boosts your ad income. There are quite a few contributions on here which if published in a magazine would be paid for.

 

Unlike the BRM magazine, you get your RMweb content for free.

 

But it's still reasonable to expect users who don't contribute anything useful to help with the website costs.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Phil Parker]

12 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

It's not really fair to say that such users are not contributing anything. Some of them may be posting valuable content which attracts your visitors and thereby boosts your ad income. There are quite a few contributions on here which if published in a magazine would be paid for.

The numbers who believe their "wise words" are valuable, and the numbers who's words actually add value are very different. The busiest bits of the forum are those with generally fact-free rows about RTR models. They are also the most expensive to administer because we have to spend lots of time on them herding cats. People LOVE a good row...

[AY Mod]

18 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

Some of them may be posting valuable content which attracts your visitors and thereby boosts your ad income.

...

But it's still reasonable to expect users who don't contribute anything useful to help with the website costs.

 

Sure; I can normally distinguish which are which and, in the majority, those that do have positive content are less likely than *some* to grumble.

 

Anyway, I've just seen some data on the performance on the video and pop-up ads and it's pertinent for me to say that they will remain (with some tweaking perhaps) but I am keen for us to provide a suitable alternative as soon as we can for those who wish to be ad-free.

[fail safe]

More recent Safari will no longer let you use an ad blocker. Because an ad blocker is a tracker and security risk. Advertising is fine as long as it doesnt interfere with reading content.

[martin_wynne]

Firefox has today released version 93 with beefed-up tracker protection:

 

 https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2021/10/05/firefox-93-features-an-improved-smartblock-and-new-referrer-tracking-protections/

 

Firefox and Microsoft Edge can be set to strict tracker blocking, which prevents ads appearing on RMweb, and most other web sites. You don't need to install an ad-blocker.

 

But if you use tracker blocking, make sure you take out a Gold subscription to compensate the owners of this web site from the lost income from your page impressions. It costs money to run a website such as RMweb.

 

Martin.

[jamespetts]

28 minutes ago, fail safe said:

More recent Safari will no longer let you use an ad blocker. Because an ad blocker is a tracker and security risk. Advertising is fine as long as it doesnt interfere with reading content.

 

The larger producers of browsers (Google especially, but also Apple, who wish to compete with Google for advertising revenue) have a fundamental conflict of interest leading them maliciously to interfere with advertisement blocking functionality even though it is in the interests of browser users to permit fully functional advertisement blocking. Do not trust the excuses given by these organisations for the abusive behaviour in restricting advertising blockers. Instead, use Firefox, a browser produced by an organisation dedicated to internet freedom.

 

In reality, there were internet forums run by enthusiasts long before paid advertising on forums was a viable business model. If an advertising backed model were to become unviable in the future because of increased use of advertisement blockers, forums would not go away: amateur run forums would replace commercially run forums. People would probably have to host their own images (e.g. on the free web space normally provided by ISPs) as amateur forums would be unlikely to be able to pay for mass image hosting, but there would be no incentive for those who run forums to make the experience for those who do not pay as unpleasant as possible to coerce them into paying to upgrade. Likewise for video hosting: if YouTube were to become unprofitable overnight, PeerTube would take its place. There would be no shortage of video hosting capacity nor people who make videos because they enjoy it and want to share the things that they love.

 

Thus, a choice about whether to use advertisement blocking software is not just about whether to "support" things that you want to see. It is a choice about what sort of economic model that you think is preferable for hobby content on the internet: one dominated by large commercial concerns, or a decentralised, largely amateur based economy. I know what I prefer.

Edited October 5, 2021 by jamespetts

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

It does.

 

No ads = no revenue.

 

Some don't care that they're not contributing anything (if I knew where they lived I'd stare in their windows to watch telly so I didn't have to pay my licence) but there are some who could need to block them for performance or functionality*.

 

* But they're rarely ones that proudly proclaim they're blocking them.

You’re always welcome to come and stare through my window to watch TV……bring your wet weather gear though, it’s seaward facing 

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Sure; I can normally distinguish which are which and, in the majority, those that do have positive content are less likely than *some* to grumble.

 

Anyway, I've just seen some data on the performance on the video and pop-up ads and it's pertinent for me to say that they will remain (with some tweaking perhaps) but I am keen for us to provide a suitable alternative as soon as we can for those who wish to be ad-free.

They don’t actually “interfere” with reading the forum, at least on my iPad, but they or the site does seem to have slowed slightly (opening new pages mainly and typing text sometime slows) since they appeared.

[JJGraphics]

1 hour ago, fail safe said:

More recent Safari will no longer let you use an ad blocker. Because an ad blocker is a tracker and security risk. Advertising is fine as long as it doesnt interfere with reading content.

 

That's not actually correct about Safari no longer letting you use an ad-blocker . . . but we won't discuss that here . . .

I agree that advertising is fine as long as it doesn't interfere with reading and doesn't contain near-pornographic content which is far from suitable for a forum like this which is visited by many younger modellers.

John

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Read together, I’ve found these three posts particularly helpful:

 

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Andy,

 

It's not really fair to say that such users are not contributing anything. Some of them may be posting valuable content which attracts your visitors and thereby boosts your ad income. There are quite a few contributions on here which if published in a magazine would be paid for.

 

Unlike the BRM magazine, you get your RMweb content for free.

 

But it's still reasonable to expect users who don't contribute anything useful to help with the website costs.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Valid point: I know I’ve learned a huge amount from RMweb - and got more modelling done - in the three years since joining than the thirty plus years beforehand.  I’ve been a happy BRM subscriber for around a decade, and plan to remain so, but the interactive nature of the Forum has helped take my hobby to another, more active, level.  
 

Many of the contributors I’ve learned a lot about UK modelling from are Gold members, usually long-standing Forum members too, so they already pay to support the Forum anyway.

 

But I’m personally modelling in a different area, away from the mainstream (Overseas / Narrow Gauge).  There, I have read four posts in recent days on threads I follow from contributors  indicating they’re scaling back their engagement with RMweb as they feel the new ads diminish their user experience sufficiently.  Might I find there’s less for me to read in future, which could translate into me being less keen on using / subscribing to RMweb for the bits I want…?
 

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

The numbers who believe their "wise words" are valuable, and the numbers who's words actually add value are very different. The busiest bits of the forum are those with generally fact-free rows about RTR models. They are also the most expensive to administer because we have to spend lots of time on them herding cats. People LOVE a good row...

 

…which is why I found Phil’s post helpful: I don’t think I’ve ever posted anything in the RTR part of the Forum, and hardly ever go there to see what’s being discussed.  And I really don’t enjoy a row (I have my hobby for relaxation).  So if I am a cat I’m a stray anyway (in other words, not a typical user).  
 

Knowing that is actually helpful: I have an opportunity to contribute positively in those areas I’m most interested in, to try and add value there and do my little bit to help make RMweb something people continue to want to engage with.

 

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Sure; I can normally distinguish which are which and, in the majority, those that do have positive content are less likely than *some* to grumble.

 

Anyway, I've just seen some data on the performance on the video and pop-up ads and it's pertinent for me to say that they will remain (with some tweaking perhaps) but I am keen for us to provide a suitable alternative as soon as we can for those who wish to be ad-free.

Which is neatly summed up in Andy’s post: first, I hope what I do post is positive and encouraging, or at least factual when neutral (I’m not skilled / experienced enough to be a ‘go to’ expert on anything).

 

And second, as someone with more of an interest in fringe areas, it’s helpful to know what the overall data is saying: thank you for sharing this (it could be considered commercial information).

So, my apologies for waffling rather - but what it ultimately means is I ought to get on and do some more modelling, so I have something new to share!  Which I suspect was the original point behind the Forum when it began anyway…

[fail safe]

1 hour ago, JJGraphics said:

 

That's not actually correct about Safari no longer letting you use an ad-blocker . . . but we won't discuss that here . . .

I agree that advertising is fine as long as it doesn't interfere with reading and doesn't contain near-pornographic content which is far from suitable for a forum like this which is visited by many younger modellers.

John

Its totally correct about Safari. Unless you want to destroy all the security and functionality.

[jhb171achil]

On 12/10/2020 at 16:55, AY Mod said:

Testing is underway on a few things at the moment and any issues are being logged into. 

 

Let us hope that the testing resolves this issue for good.

[47164]

Is this now hitting a new level , as since the last site upgrade I get credit card sized video,s running for about 30 secs and are not advertising, really annoying as they open each time you go on a new topic.

[AY Mod]

[Phil Parker]

3 hours ago, jamespetts said:

In reality, there were internet forums run by enthusiasts long before paid advertising on forums was a viable business model. If an advertising backed model were to become unviable in the future because of increased use of advertisement blockers, forums would not go away: amateur run forums would replace commercially run forums. People would probably have to host their own images (e.g. on the free web space normally provided by ISPs) as amateur forums would be unlikely to be able to pay for mass image hosting, but there would be no incentive for those who run forums to make the experience for those who do not pay as unpleasant as possible to coerce them into paying to upgrade. Likewise for video hosting: if YouTube were to become unprofitable overnight, PeerTube would take its place. There would be no shortage of video hosting capacity nor people who make videos because they enjoy it and want to share the things that they love.

 

There will always be amateur run forums, but they all rely on someone doing a lot of unpaid work to keep the thing running, and almost certainly paying the bills themselves. Then, once they get fed up of grief from the forumites, lose interest, get ill or run out of money, the forum dies and everyone has to move on. It doesn't matter where you host images or videos, someone has to pay for the kit, bandwidth and space. Even if you accept a complete lack of (paid for) moderation, that's still going to eventually cost someone money.

[martin_wynne]

1 minute ago, Phil Parker said:

There will always be amateur run forums, but they all rely on someone doing a lot of unpaid work to keep the thing running, and almost certainly paying the bills themselves. Then, once they get fed up of grief from the forumites, lose interest, get ill or run out of money, the forum dies and everyone has to move on. It doesn't matter where you host images or videos, someone has to pay for the kit, bandwidth and space. Even if you accept a complete lack of (paid for) moderation, that's still going to eventually cost someone money.

 

What usually happens is that they sell out to VerticalScope Inc., a Canadian company. Which has a business model of buying up successful amateur-run enthusiast forums and running them professionally, with advertising. But they do it so well, that users don't seem to mind, provided they keep their favourite forum running. That's happened to three forums I'm a member of, most recently another UK model railway forum: https://modelrailforum.com

 

They might be interested in RMweb?  -- see: https://www.verticalscope.com/about/acquisitions/

 

Martin.

[Andy Hayter]

42 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

I understand the frustration Andy but non-advertising videos sounds like a different problem.  We had this with some users a couple of years or more ago.  At that time it seemed to affect mainly non-UK members for some reason.  

[spamcan61]

4 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

I understand the frustration Andy but non-advertising videos sounds like a different problem.  We had this with some users a couple of years or more ago.  At that time it seemed to affect mainly non-UK members for some reason.  

I thought the videos were currently 'non advertising' as they're a test, not actual advertising, but I could be wrong ...