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z21 - Will i need a booster?


Chilly
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Track finally arrived so building can commence.

 

The layout is as below, top run 20ft, left edge 13ft of which 7ft in the middle will be a 3 span bridge and bottom run 16ft.

 

There are 24 MTB1 motors for points and 3 DR4018's to run them, a bus running the length with droppers hmm that will surely be another set of questions for later.....

 

There will be c20 engines on the layout with max 4 running any given time.

 

The system is z21 with multimaus handset and phone/tablet for further controllers.

 

So the big question is will I need a booster as I have no idea :rolleyes: and if so where to place it.

 

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The good news is that boosters can be added quite readily to an existing system. A booster is simply introduced between the command station and the layout. So you can try without and find out. If you have multiple sound-equipped locos sitting chuntering away all the time, you will require more power, but again, the system will be adaptable to suit. 

 

Unless you have some automation, running four locos independently on an end-to-end layout may tax your brain a little. Two can be challenging enough!

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8 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

The good news is that boosters can be added quite readily to an existing system. A booster is simply introduced between the command station and the layout. So you can try without and find out. If you have multiple sound-equipped locos sitting chuntering away all the time, you will require more power, but again, the system will be adaptable to suit. 

 

Unless you have some automation, running four locos independently on an end-to-end layout may tax your brain a little. Two can be challenging enough!

 

Absolutely. Some are more current hungry than others but the maximum current draw will be when they are accelerating with a full load & you won't be doing this with all 4 at the same time.

I enabled the ammeter on my Powercab & was surprised by how little current was drawn.

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If you need a booster, I'd split the layout such that the terminus on one wall is powered by the main unit and the terminus on the other wall is powered by the booster.  Whether you make the boundary between the two power districts half way between or include the up line in one and the down line in the other is up to you.  That would be governed by where you put double insulated rail joiners (ie separate both rails of both lines) to split the layout in two.

 

I think the z21 is a 3 Amp system, so assuming you're locomotives draw 0.5 Amps each whilst running (modern stock normally uses less current), that will be 2.0 Amps and if you operate 4 MTB1s simultaneously (0.15 Amps each during operation) whilst the four locomotives are running then that would take you up to 2.6 Amps, so I think you should be okay without a booster.  The question is of course whether you'll have anything else that is drawing current -eg DCC Sound locos idling away, coach lighting in several rakes, resistive wheelsets for automatic train detection.

 

If you think there is a chance that you may need to allow for a booster, then add the insulated rail joiners suggested above at the build stage, but only buy the booster once you've ascertained that you actually need it.  I suspect that the answer is that you wont.

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Thanks for the replies.

 

There are no sound decoders in any loco's, maybe one day in the future.

 

Only lighting will be in the diesels and directional when they arrive (Accurascale) apart from flicker box in Joem.

 

Just nice to have the track so that I can commence the build.

 

Chilly 

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I would advice that you create 2 busses and power the track bus though a circuit breaker such NCE EB1, or PSX. You power the accessory bus for the DR4018 direct from the Z21.

 

the advantage to this is that when you get a track short caused by overruns a turnout with the blade set against the loco you can change the errant turnout using DCC. With only one bus you will need to move the loco by hand to clear the short.

 

this method also has the advantage that if later you need a booster then you simply replace the circuit breaker with a booster ;)

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37 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

I would advice that you create 2 busses and power the track bus though a circuit breaker such NCE EB1, or PSX. You power the accessory bus for the DR4018 direct from the Z21.

 

the advantage to this is that when you get a track short caused by overruns a turnout with the blade set against the loco you can change the errant turnout using DCC. With only one bus you will need to move the loco by hand to clear the short.

 

this method also has the advantage that if later you need a booster then you simply replace the circuit breaker with a booster ;)

Hi Iain

 

I have my thick hat on.

 

So 2 busses from the z21, one direct to DR4018 and another one from the z21 initially through to a circuit breaker and then to the track?

 

Ps as I have followed your advice on all things electrical so far which of the 2 quoted would you choose?

 

Chilly

 

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I run a layout that is a bit bigger than that on a 4 amp supply but... I have another 4 amps running the accessories (point decoders etc.) so another vote for the accessory bus.

 

I don't know what decoders you use and whether they have an ABC braking facility but with a layout like this, I would set up ABC braking zones in all the terminus platform tracks. This reduces your chances of crashing into buffers when trying to control four trains on an end to end layout. I have done this with my branch line and now can leave my auto coach /Pannier or bubblecar trundling to and fro all day in shuttle mode. But like I said, you have to have decoders capable of doing this. Needs thinking about before laying track.

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26 minutes ago, Chilly said:

Ps as I have followed your advice on all things electrical so far which of the 2 quoted would you choose?

 

Go with Iain's suggestion above.

 

27 minutes ago, Chilly said:

So 2 busses from the z21, one direct to DR4018 and another one from the z21 initially through to a circuit breaker and then to the track?

 

Yes.  The first of these is normally termed an 'Accessory bus' and all that is connected to it are your accessory decoders and the point motors that they control, plus anything else that you want to add such as operating signals or building lights (if you want to have these switchable from the DCC system).

 

The second, via a circuit breaker is a separate 'Track bus'.  It passes through the circuit breaker so that if there is a short on the track, only the 'Track bus' will shut down and you can continue to operate accessories connected to the 'Accessory bus'.

 

The only thing potentially worth highlighting is frog wiring.  Some point motors such as the Cobalt Digital IP has a frog output, which if connected to the frog, means that it would be powered by your 'Accessory bus' rather than the 'Track bus'.  However, that is overcome by just using one of the other switches wired up to connect to the frog and stock rails.

 

It is of course still possible to split the 'Track bus' as I suggested earlier, but you definitely don't need three boosters (ie two track power districts and an accessory bus).  However, splitting the track bus could help with fault finding (ie if you can switch half the layout off, then it should be easier to find a fault).

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29 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

Go with Iain's suggestion above.

 

 

Yes.  The first of these is normally termed an 'Accessory bus' and all that is connected to it are your accessory decoders and the point motors that they control, plus anything else that you want to add such as operating signals or building lights (if you want to have these switchable from the DCC system).

 

The second, via a circuit breaker is a separate 'Track bus'.  It passes through the circuit breaker so that if there is a short on the track, only the 'Track bus' will shut down and you can continue to operate accessories connected to the 'Accessory bus'.

 

The only thing potentially worth highlighting is frog wiring.  Some point motors such as the Cobalt Digital IP has a frog output, which if connected to the frog, means that it would be powered by your 'Accessory bus' rather than the 'Track bus'.  However, that is overcome by just using one of the other switches wired up to connect to the frog and stock rails.

 

It is of course still possible to split the 'Track bus' as I suggested earlier, but you definitely don't need three boosters (ie two track power districts and an accessory bus).  However, splitting the track bus could help with fault finding (ie if you can switch half the layout off, then it should be easier to find a fault).

Hi the point motors are MTB1's with the polarity switches for the frog so does that mean i need another switch of sorts per your middle paragraph?

 

Thanks Chilly 

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1 hour ago, Chilly said:

Hi the point motors are MTB1's with the polarity switches for the frog so does that mean i need another switch of sorts per your middle paragraph?

 

No, I think you're okay with the MTB1, although I've never used one. 

 

The instructions (https://www.mtb-model.com/files/produkty/MP1-setup_CZ_EN_DE.pdf) state that "there is a 1-amp switch SPDT contact with ressetable thermal protection fuse set to 0.5A short-circuit protection on the point frog".  Looking at the wiring diagram, this switch appears to be completely separate from the power to the motor, so provided terminals f1 and f2 (the top two) are connected to the stock rails (which will be fed from your 'Track bus') and the next one down is connected to the frog, then the frog power should be taken from the 'Track bus', which means you retain the advantages of having separate buses for track and accessories.

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28 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

No, I think you're okay with the MTB1, although I've never used one. 

 

The instructions (https://www.mtb-model.com/files/produkty/MP1-setup_CZ_EN_DE.pdf) state that "there is a 1-amp switch SPDT contact with ressetable thermal protection fuse set to 0.5A short-circuit protection on the point frog".  Looking at the wiring diagram, this switch appears to be completely separate from the power to the motor, so provided terminals f1 and f2 (the top two) are connected to the stock rails (which will be fed from your 'Track bus') and the next one down is connected to the frog, then the frog power should be taken from the 'Track bus', which means you retain the advantages of having separate buses for track and accessories.

Phew thanks for that Dungrange as I have a little trepidation on the wiring front when it commences but know that the knowledge bank here should keep me on the right track :rolleyes:

 

Thanks Chilly

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4 hours ago, JST said:

I run a layout that is a bit bigger than that on a 4 amp supply but... I have another 4 amps running the accessories (point decoders etc.) so another vote for the accessory bus.

 

I don't know what decoders you use and whether they have an ABC braking facility but with a layout like this, I would set up ABC braking zones in all the terminus platform tracks. This reduces your chances of crashing into buffers when trying to control four trains on an end to end layout. I have done this with my branch line and now can leave my auto coach /Pannier or bubblecar trundling to and fro all day in shuttle mode. But like I said, you have to have decoders capable of doing this. Needs thinking about before laying track.

Hi JST

 

The decoders are Zimo mostly MX600R's a MX618N and a MX621R if that helps?

 

Not sure how you set this up for ABC braking zones or setting up the decoders :scratchhead: ?

 

Chilly

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Zimos will work fine for stopping at the station but only the more expensive ones will "shuttle". Lenz or DCC Concepts are a starting point for looking at ABC units. They are about a tenner each.

If you have never come across this before here is a helpful video:-

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chilly said:

Hi JST

 

The decoders are Zimo mostly MX600R's a MX618N and a MX621R if that helps?

 

Not sure how you set this up for ABC braking zones or setting up the decoders :scratchhead: ?

 

Chilly

 

An ABC brake zone is made by gapping one rail (the right one in direction of travel) and fitting a small device consisting of four or five diodes across the gap.   It costs about 30p to make your own, or both Lenz and Lais make pre-made ones for a number of pounds each.   For the platforms I'd be gapping the rail towards the end of the platforms, so there is plenty of space for a loco to slow to a stop.  Make each zone the same length to the buffers, so the "constant stopping distance" feature can be used.  

 

A loco with a decoder capable of responding to ABC (which includes Zimo) will then automatically slows to a stop when it crosses the into the brake zone.  But you can reverse out of the brake zone, or you can override with a function key (or switch the circuit out of the track with a simple on/off switch).    ABC is used to either stop in front of buffers (stops things crashing into them), or can be switched/bypassed to control automatic stops ahead of signals.  

 

There are several CV's to change in a decoder to enable the feature.  You need to turn on Asymmetric Braking (ABC), and I'd also recommend turning on Constant Braking Distance (for automated brake instructions, but not for throttle instructions), and setting a Constant Braking Distance value - thus a loco will always stop in the same distance regardless of speed.   

 

The Zimo "small decoder" manual, page 23-25 (from Zimo.at website) covers this, including details on the "make your own from diodes" trackside device. 

 

There are more advanced features in some decoders, such as automatic shuttle trains, and slow-approach (reduce speed after a caution signal).  Those may require more complex trackside units, and a bit more reading on setting things up. 

 

Note that DCC Concepts have "done their own thing" with their implementation of ABC.  The stopping works the same, but the advanced features have been done differently to the other makers such as Lenz, ESU, Zimo, etc..   That can lead to problems if mixing decoder types and wanting to use the advanced features.    

 

 

- Nigel

 

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Just going back towards the original question , I would suppose that the power rating for the device has a nominal value that can comfortably be exceeded for short periods?? It would be unusual in this kind of situation for the 3A quoted for the Z21 to be a fixed ceiling. Hence folks with restricted power systems reporting they can run lots of gear on them without problems. 

 

When I get towards the far end of my project it will become an interesting case in point. With the possibility to have maybe 10 trains in motion plus shunting, how the Z21 I intend to buy will cope

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4 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Just going back towards the original question , I would suppose that the power rating for the device has a nominal value that can comfortably be exceeded for short periods?? It would be unusual in this kind of situation for the 3A quoted for the Z21 to be a fixed ceiling. Hence folks with restricted power systems reporting they can run lots of gear on them without problems. 

 

When I get towards the far end of my project it will become an interesting case in point. With the possibility to have maybe 10 trains in motion plus shunting, how the Z21 I intend to buy will cope

 

The only way you can have 10 trains in motion at the same time, plus doing some shunting, will be via automation. :)

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Just now, RFS said:

 

The only way you can have 10 trains in motion at the same time, plus doing some shunting, will be via automation. :)

I know that. That's where I'm going but there is a full layout rebuild between. Curiously I  can run 4 solo on my existing DC, two on loops and 2 shunter.  With the occasional accident..

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2 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

An ABC brake zone is made by gapping one rail (the right one in direction of travel) and fitting a small device consisting of four or five diodes across the gap.   It costs about 30p to make your own, or both Lenz and Lais make pre-made ones for a number of pounds each.   For the platforms I'd be gapping the rail towards the end of the platforms, so there is plenty of space for a loco to slow to a stop.  Make each zone the same length to the buffers, so the "constant stopping distance" feature can be used.  

 

A loco with a decoder capable of responding to ABC (which includes Zimo) will then automatically slows to a stop when it crosses the into the brake zone.  But you can reverse out of the brake zone, or you can override with a function key (or switch the circuit out of the track with a simple on/off switch).    ABC is used to either stop in front of buffers (stops things crashing into them), or can be switched/bypassed to control automatic stops ahead of signals.  

 

There are several CV's to change in a decoder to enable the feature.  You need to turn on Asymmetric Braking (ABC), and I'd also recommend turning on Constant Braking Distance (for automated brake instructions, but not for throttle instructions), and setting a Constant Braking Distance value - thus a loco will always stop in the same distance regardless of speed.   

 

The Zimo "small decoder" manual, page 23-25 (from Zimo.at website) covers this, including details on the "make your own from diodes" trackside device. 

 

There are more advanced features in some decoders, such as automatic shuttle trains, and slow-approach (reduce speed after a caution signal).  Those may require more complex trackside units, and a bit more reading on setting things up. 

 

Note that DCC Concepts have "done their own thing" with their implementation of ABC.  The stopping works the same, but the advanced features have been done differently to the other makers such as Lenz, ESU, Zimo, etc..   That can lead to problems if mixing decoder types and wanting to use the advanced features.    

 

 

- Nigel

 

Thanks Nigel, wow it is a steep learning curve thankfully there are people to help !

 

Chilly

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13 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Just going back towards the original question , I would suppose that the power rating for the device has a nominal value that can comfortably be exceeded for short periods?? It would be unusual in this kind of situation for the 3A quoted for the Z21 to be a fixed ceiling. Hence folks with restricted power systems reporting they can run lots of gear on them without problems. 

 

There will be some tolerance in the current trip level and the time delay but electronic devices are not like fuses or circuit breakers that rely on thermal effects and take time to trip. They can be designed to cut out very quickly at levels only a little above normal. Only Roco (or someone who has experimented) could say with confidence exactly how the cut out works. You should not assume you could operate above the stated limit.

 

Old fashioned rewireable fuses, for example, could sustain an overload for many hours and would only break instantly on a dead short circuit (a fault in electrical terminology).

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12 hours ago, Chilly said:

Thanks Nigel, wow it is a steep learning curve thankfully there are people to help !

 

Chilly

 

Some are mistaken into thinking this means DCC must be complicated.

It doesn't have to be. You can just enjoy controlling each train individually without having to switch on/off any track circuits. If that is all you ever want from it, then there is nothing wrong with that.

It is capable of offering a lot more though.

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5 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Some are mistaken into thinking this means DCC must be complicated.It doesn't have to be...........


:good_mini:

 

Altogether now....

”DCC can be as simple, or as complicated as you want it to be....”.

 

Trite but absolutely true.

 

 

.

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Regarding the MTB MP1 point motors.

 

These have two completely separate sets of 3 connectors each. One set drives the motor itself to switch the point, with a left/right pair and a common, which in your case come from the DR4018 decoder. The other set relate to the 1 amp SPDT switch - which can be used to provide power to the point frog. In this case, one connector is for the wire to the frog, while the other pair are for feeds from the right and left rails, typically from the power bus in a DCC setup. The SPDT switch flips between right and left in conjunction with the motor moving the point.

 

The picture attached shows the wiring related to one of my MP1s operating a PECO electrofrog point. The brown & blue wires are from the power bus and feed droppers to the rails at the toe end of the point on the right hand side, plus feeds to the SPDT switch of the MP1. The frog connection is made with the green wire connected via the terminal block on the left. The motor feeds from the DR4018 to the MP1 are the three wires passing horizontally from the left towards the top of the picture, with the green wire being the common.

 

I power the DR4018 decoders using a separate accessory bus, independent of the power bus. I use terminal blocks a lot for the final connections to anything on the track to allow for removal of any piece of track with minimal disturbance to the wiring. Terminal blocks are dirt cheap and very reliable in my experience.

 

Wiring_for_Electrofrog_Point_MTB1.jpg

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