RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 14, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2020 (edited) As promised the first photos of my attempts to fit a modified Chivers Fish Van underframe beneath my skittish Stove R. First the addition of some width to the Chivers floor. Needs 40 x 50 thou each side. I didn't have any two sections to hand that would make that up so used 60 x 60 and filed it back after setting. Also thin strips (20 or 30 thou, not sure which) added to the ends to increase the length, but primarily to create a bigger area to bond the buffer beams on. Top-side shot shows the 10-thou sheet added to make the unit sit correctly in the underside of the body. Then the floor unit sitting in the recessed underside of the bodyshell, and a second shot with the first buffer beam attached to the floor unit Finally a before and after shot of the sole-bar/axle-guard mouldings, showing the tie-bars and vee-hangers cut away. John Edited October 14, 2020 by Dunsignalling 8 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 14, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2020 In case anyone wonders what the hole in the middle is for, that's the first thing I did. Drilled dead centre of Chivers and Dapol floors so all I need do to check everything is still in line after doing each new bit is hold it up to the light. If it goes dark, I know I've done something wrong. It also gives a known datum to work to if I later get brave enough to attempt a sliding middle wheel unit.... John 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 16, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2020 Next Instalment First pic shows inverted model with dummy centre wheels in place. These are plastic ones ex-Hornby Railroad coach, which make a fairly good visual match with the operational Gibsons at either end. Brake shoes mounted to all three wheelsets. The dummy wheels in the kit have a flatter look that would better match Romfords. The gap to the railhead is about 0.75mm (OK in a push-test over a Code 100 crossover) and the subterfuge is not apparent unless one looks closely from almost rail level. All-in-all, the trickery is much more effective than I'd expected. Photo also includes the doors I've made to go inside the gangways. Paint (3 coats) still hasn't covered well so a bit more work will be needed there. Mind you, I've not seen a photo of a Stove R with end covers in place, so maybe a slightly weatherbeaten look is appropriate. Other shot shows the model right way up with the roof plonked on to give a more complete impression. Probably no more progress until after the weekend as I'll be making the most of our last couple of forecast dry days outdoors. Van will be layout-tested on Sunday morning when I'll know if the clearance is sufficient. It's always easier to file a bit more off that try to add it back..... Next job will be making and fitting the long footboards (the salvaged originals aren't long enough), then (re?)fitting the rest of the underframe detail. I've then got a set of Lazerglaze to fit which will also require me to make up some window grilles. One query; was the fixed light adjacent to the ducket whited-out on both sides (c.1960), or just one? John 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jack Benson Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 Hi, Does it ride at the correct height with 14mm wheels? Btw very nice idea, it will be copied. Thanks and Stay Safe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 16, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Jack Benson said: Hi, Does it ride at the correct height with 14mm wheels? Btw very nice idea, it will be copied. Thanks and Stay Safe Yes, buffers are in line with the various Bachmann and kit-built wagons/locos I've tried it with. The kit van is right so I was confident this would be, too. Probably looks a bit high in the photo because the battery boxes etc are still to be attached. Only issue is that I spaced the buffers as per the Dapol chassis and have realised they are about 1.5mm too far apart. It's not obvious and so long as they don't cause any running issues (buffer-locking etc) I'm inclined not to risk damaging something else by messing with them. I'm watching out for the reintroduction of the Fish Van kit, as I've a couple more ideas in mind (including a few more Fish vans). John Edited October 16, 2020 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 Forgive what might be an obvious question, but why discard the original underframe? I put 14mm wheels in mine, junked the centre axle assembly (I seem to recall) and just hung the centre axle on a wire and it runs fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 16, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, jwealleans said: Forgive what might be an obvious question, but why discard the original underframe? I put 14mm wheels in mine, junked the centre axle assembly (I seem to recall) and just hung the centre axle on a wire and it runs fine. I take it you didn't just replace the 11mm wheels with 14mm in the standard rotating subframes? ISTR trying that and the flanges jammed solid against the moulding. As bought, mine ran like various grades of pig, depending where it was in a train, and if propelling over a crossover or into a siding was attempted, it usually got "amusing" in most of the wrong ways one can imagine. Those floppy coupling mounts definitely had to go (I use Kadees, and CCUs aren't needed on a short van like this). I reckoned the excessive movement built into the thing should allow it to negotiate at least one radius inside No.1 and decided it would need so much cut away to get it to the right height on 14mm wheels that it was a lost cause. Maybe I gave up too easily..... I still have all the bits I removed and, with all the long winter nights ahead, I might give it another go - it could even end up under a Fish van body if I can get it to behave. John Edited October 16, 2020 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 I'll have to get it out and have a look now..... I'd read Coachmann's account on what he did with his and in the next model shop I went in there was one in the bargain bin. I may have put new W irons onto it, I really can't remember. What you say suggests I did. I certainly put new couplings on it (I use BBs), wire handrails and a repaint. I seem to have skated over it rather on my workbench thread - probably because I simply copied Larry. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 16, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, jwealleans said: I'll have to get it out and have a look now..... I'd read Coachmann's account on what he did with his and in the next model shop I went in there was one in the bargain bin. I may have put new W irons onto it, I really can't remember. What you say suggests I did. I certainly put new couplings on it (I use BBs), wire handrails and a repaint. I seem to have skated over it rather on my workbench thread - probably because I simply copied Larry. Those are definitely not the Dapol axleguards, which place the axleboxes much tighter up under the solebars and don't look at all correct. I'll try to find my remaining unmodified example and post a comparative photo. I think you have done what I was planning before deciding that the Chivers Fish van underframe was probably going to be easier. I'd already got the necessary Comet bits together but mislaid them. In accordance with the Law of Sod, as soon as the alternative conversion got underway, they miraculously reappeared. They will either go under a second Stove R or the now chassis-less Fish van body. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 18, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2020 On test this morning. Wholly successful once I'd rectified the BTB on one of the outer axles, which had moved half way to EM. The middle wheels are unmarked so presumably didn't hit anything. John 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhar Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Hi John, I take it that the Dapol/Model Rail model is accurate above the solebar to make this improvement worthwhile. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimwal Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 32 minutes ago, Buhar said: Hi John, I take it that the Dapol/Model Rail model is accurate above the solebar to make this improvement worthwhile. Alan It is the correct length and height but is too wide. The Mainline/Bachmann and Hornby 50' full brakes are correct width. I noticed the difference and checked with drawings which confirmed this. This would be why John had to widen the fish van floor. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 19, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2020 (edited) Thanks for the heads-up on the width of the body. TBH, I hadn't noticed and it looked OK against the rest of the vans in the test consist. Being over-width is a common fault among r-t-r goods vans, a 2mm excess afflicts most (all?) models of GWR prototypes from Dapol, Bachmann and Hornby, reflecting Mainline and Hornby Dublo ancestry. Underframes and buffer beams were/are made to suit wagons and vans without corner posts extending below body level. Anything with them got stretched to fit outside that, where necessary. Fortunately, accurate equivalents are easily sourced in kit form (for most) as it's something of a beast to correct. I cut the sides from a few Bachmann fruit vans and combined them with bits from the Railway Modeller "grounded" giveaways. For the rest, I junked the bodies and "liberated" Bachmann underframes reside under my Dapol/Hornby BR Meat van bodies. The only coaching stock that I've noticed to have a similar affliction is Hornby's Gresley corridor range which seems to be OK at roof level but with the tumblehome reduced to fit an over-width chassis. I only have a couple of them and they run in a (fixed) mixed rake with Bachmann Mk1s and Thompsons so don't directly encounter my Kirk Full Brakes. For my Stove, it's primary use is (perhaps fortunately) intended to be with a string of r-t-r milk tanks, so it'll be unlikely to meet one of its correct-width bogie cousins end-on. When I get round to my crimson one, I may have a go at narrowing the body, too..... John Edited October 19, 2020 by Dunsignalling 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 15 hours ago, Buhar said: Hi John, I take it that the Dapol/Model Rail model is accurate above the solebar to make this improvement worthwhile. Alan Before anyone goes looking for them. It was Hornby Magazine as opposed to Model Rail. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimwal Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Narrowing the body is easy enough. Remove the gangways, cut dead in the centre and stick the two halves back together. Just select a hacksaw blade that gives the right width of cut. I cannot remember if one blade was wide enough or if two were needed side by side. The roof profile is correct when done, it will need a couple of filling and sanding sessions to tidy it up. The gangways cover most of the ends, just a bit at the top. I will try and get some photos on here. Jim 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium CloggyDog Posted October 20, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 20, 2020 On 18/10/2020 at 18:58, Dunsignalling said: On test this morning. Wholly successful once I'd rectified the BTB on one of the outer axles, which had moved half way to EM. The middle wheels are unmarked so presumably didn't hit anything. John That definitely looks the part, will be trying that on my pair for certain. Many thanks for sharing the idea and method. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 20, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2020 On 18/10/2020 at 23:01, Buhar said: I take it that the Dapol/Model Rail model is accurate above the solebar to make this improvement worthwhile. A few comments from a man who knows a bit about coaching stock here that will save me repeating them. Then a his take on making it look a bit better without cutting it up completely On 18/10/2020 at 23:46, jimwal said: The Mainline/Bachmann and Hornby 50' full brakes are correct width. The width of the body of the Mainline 50' Brake is about right but the duckets are a bit slim. The underframe is correct across the step boards but 2mm too wide across the solebars compared to the LMS standard underframe. I intended to use some Mainline chassis I have for my Palethorpes bogie vans but haven't got round to altering any yet. According to Jenkinson's drawings it should be 31.5mm across the solebars at 4mm scale. Does anyone know if Hornby got the width over solebars right? My Period 3 BSK is only about 0.25mm out in the main underframe and body dimensions 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 20, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2020 Thanks for the link to Coachmann's thread, I'd been looking for it without success. Reading through it, and looking at the before-and-after photos, the extra height evident in the latter is inevitable. It's not practical to lower the beastie on its "castors" so substituting 14mm wheels for the 11mm ones it comes with naturally bumps everything skywards by 1.5mm. Keeping the buffer height correct was the primary reason I decided to replace the functional chassis in its entirety (though steps, battery boxes, etc. will be re-used). John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimwal Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 Here are a couple of images of my van. Among other things the duckets were replaced with slimmer ones. The chassis required fairly drastic work. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimwal Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 More six wheelers showing wheel mountings. At left is the Stove R, next is the Hornby Dublo version (the colour has faded reducing its collector value). Next is the Chivers LMS fish van with proper centre wheels. Finally is a Midland 530A brake van from Ratio Bain suburban coach parts. These show the way I have arranged the centre wheels. Basically a U shape bracket to hold the axle, narrow enough to allow sideplay. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 21, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2020 Before I begin adding the detail, a last shot of the rolling shell, this time from beneath. John 4 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jack Benson Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 Hi, Any more of this captivating tale? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 (edited) Just discovered this. Excellent idea to use the Fish Van underframe, wish I had done that. I had a couple of these Dapol Stove R's. Neither of them ran well and I hated the undersize wheels. The first in BR livery I fixed by bodging the W irons with some from Comet. When I was done it ran very well. I can't find any pics of it alas. I did buy the LMS version but it had the central lining in the wrong. I spent a lot of time trying to get it right, however I finally gave up and built the Comet kit: The kit came out very nicely I think. Don't follow the Comet instructions for the underframe they are really really wrong. I used a simple device for the center axle. I replaced the axle with brass tube and used a 1mm steel rod inside the tube as a faux axle. Pictures in the thread. BTW the picture that came up above is NOT my model. Coachman posted a response. John Ah, found the Dapol picture misfiled: Looking at it now, it seems to my much older and experienced eye to be pretty crude. However, it does run ( I no longer have it - sold off).The Comet effort is a lot better. Edited March 10, 2021 by brossard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted March 10, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2021 Apologies, guys, I found a box of half-built wagons that needed finishing, and my New Years Resolution was inspired by Mastermind, "I've started so I'll finish". Some of them were started an awful long time ago so they have taken priority. I'm getting there slowly! I've also got caught up in doing a loco repair for a pal that has turned into something of a battle of wills. Looked easy enough until I tried to get the DCC chip in it. Something is where it shouldn't be and I think I'll have to open up an unbroken one to work out what. I know I have a couple of them but finding either will be the trick! Hope to get the Stove off the back burner in a week ot two (sorry). John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 I noticed, in a recent posting from Roger and sons, that the 6-wheel chassis wil be available separately soon:- https://www.five79.co.uk/4mm-Standard-Gauge-Kits/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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