which motor ?

[moore43grm]

I have recently obtained a n Impetus Manning Wardle 0-6-0st kit. It requires the usual extras- wheels , motor etc

The instructions suggest that I need a Sagami 1013 motor with a Peter K motor mount and an Alan Gibson gearset.

There is also an amendment suggesting an Ultrascale 40:1 gearset with a Mashima 9/16 motor should the above not be available.

Are any of these available and if so from where ?

 

Any help would be appreciated,  many thanks

 

Russ M

[hayfield]

Russ

 

If its a 4mm scale kit I would buy a High Level gearbox and use one of Chris's 12mm coreless motors, at under £30 these motors are cheaper than what many are asking for Mashima's and far superior. Why for the sake of a few £'s skimp on a motor ?

[Barclay]

Yes the Impetus instructions (lucky you!) will have been written in the 1980's when the motors and gearboxes available were very different and rather less sophisticated. High level's website has profiles of all of their range so you can see what will fit. 

 

Branchlines make good stuff too but you will have to ask them for a brochure as they don't do the interweb.

[ROY@34F]

I would recommend a call to Chris at Hi-level . He's very helpful and knowledgable . And his products are very good too .

 

No connection , just a satisfied customer .

 

Roy.  

[Izzy]

I would tend to think that if this is a small Manning Wardle - k class etc - then a quite small width/diameter motor will be needed. Probably one of the small diameter coreless types now around ( 7/8MM) and coupled to a fairly high ratio gear reduction, 60/80-1. I say this as I just about managed to squeeze a 1630mm can into a 7mm model I made years back. Good luck!

 

Izzy

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, Izzy said:

I would tend to think that if this is a small Manning Wardle - k class etc - then a quite small width/diameter motor will be needed. Probably one of the small diameter coreless types now around ( 7/8MM) and coupled to a fairly high ratio gear reduction, 60/80-1. I say this as I just about managed to squeeze a 1630mm can into a 7mm model I made years back. Good luck!

 

Izzy

 

I tried sourcing small coreless motors and now have had 2 fail and these were not cheap ones. I have come to the conclusion they firstly need to be used on modern electronic controllers. High Level and Portescape are fine with my H&M test controller

 

If you want a micro motor Chris at High Level  sells 2 small iron frame motors both are under £10 each and work fine

 

The other benefit is that High Level motors are specially sourced for 12 volt working and have fixing holes for gearboxes. 

[burgundy]

Russ

I built an RTModels kit for an Old Class I to represent Wave, which belonged to the Newhaven Harbour Company.  As others have suggested, a HighLevel gearbox will give you a compact solution, that will reduce the speed of a high revving motor. I think mine is geared down to 108:1, which has been fine for shuffling in and out of the gasworks siding on VIntners' Yard.

It makes a Terrier look quite large.

I hope that this helps

Best wishes 
Eric 

[hayfield]

Eric

 

Excellent piece of model making

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

I tried sourcing small coreless motors and now have had 2 fail and these were not cheap ones. I have come to the conclusion they firstly need to be used on modern electronic controllers. High Level and Portescape are fine with my H&M test controller

 

If you want a micro motor Chris at High Level  sells 2 small iron frame motors both are under £10 each and work fine

 

The other benefit is that High Level motors are specially sourced for 12 volt working and have fixing holes for gearboxes. 

Nigel Lawton does a 5 Pole 8x16mm coreless @ £6.50. I’ve had no troubles with any of the 7/8mm ones I’ve used but then I do use DCC these days with mostly Zimo/CT decoders. From the look of the very nice 4mm one Eric posted it seems there is more room in the firebox than I imagined, so perhaps a normal 10x15 can - N- drive etc- will fit, (I presume it’s a Mashima of that size) if the 12mm you suggested wouldn’t.

 

Izzy

[alastairq]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

I tried sourcing small coreless motors and now have had 2 fail and these were not cheap ones. I have come to the conclusion they firstly need to be used on modern electronic controllers. High Level and Portescape are fine with my H&M test controller

 Were they these?

 

https://tramfabriek.nl/motors.html

[hayfield]

Yes one was, it may have been the type of controller I used being an older H&M safety Minor, but both High Level and Portescape are fine with it. Using a more modern (not feedback) may be the answer. I have noticed a company called 3SMR sell similar motors   https://www.3smr.co.uk/motors.html   But with dropper resistors for 12 volts. I have also had issues with 2 other makes

These are not cheap motors, and sell very well. I may have had a dud more likely its the controller I used and the lack of a dropper resistor. The company are very good and I have not bought up this issue with them (as I assume the fault was caused by me) but there is no warning on their website about not to use older controllers. I do have 2 other motors of theirs which I will try, but using a comp speed. 

 

I have a feeling these smaller motors may be designed to run on a lower voltage and or amps. The second issue is no fixings for gearboxes. I like to keep things simple.

 

Now I accept that there is a world of difference between cheap Chinese motors from the likes of eBay and those bought from retailers. Whilst these cheap Chinese motors are either surplus stock or seconds you can be lucky and buy some decent ones, what I have been told is many of them are low voltage and high revving designed for toy drones.  

 

I am all for looking out for bargains, to be quite honest a High Level coreless motor at £27 (Chris also sells very small open frame motors at under £10) is  excellent value against the previous European branded items. Plus it is fully compatible with High Levels gearboxes.

 

All new locos I build now have etched chassis, I am also replacing older chassis on locos I have built. I am also where possible using either gearboxes or decent motor mounts. To me the equation is simple, if I am investing in a kit, expensive set of wheels and a decent gearbox, why spoil it for the sake of saving a few £'s. Plus the time and trouble changing faulty motors 

[Jeff Smith]

On 14/10/2020 at 14:00, moore43grm said:

I have recently obtained a n Impetus Manning Wardle 0-6-0st kit. It requires the usual extras- wheels , motor etc

The instructions suggest that I need a Sagami 1013 motor with a Peter K motor mount and an Alan Gibson gearset.

There is also an amendment suggesting an Ultrascale 40:1 gearset with a Mashima 9/16 motor should the above not be available.

Are any of these available and if so from where ?

 

Any help would be appreciated,  many thanks

 

Russ M

Have sent you a PM with Branchlines catalogue.

[Izzy]

No coreless motor should be used with the low frequency feedback DC controllers of any age produce. They don’t have mass, the iron core heat sink that iron rotor types have - to absorb the heat generally generated. DCC uses high frequency feedback. 
 

As a general rule no efficient motor should be used with DC feedback and for all N gauge it is certainly advised against.  But we have been here many times on various threads.

 

Izzy

Edited October 16, 2020 by Izzy
auto - correct! grrr

[alastairq]

Hayfield does have a point however.....perhaps these motors should come with a health warning? Not every purchaser is going to be au fait with the meanderings of RMweb?

Personally, i have no idea whether any of my 'old' controllers are 'feedback' or not? They've not yet complained to me....

[hayfield]

To be quite honest the type of controller is one issue, and as you say unless its been explained to someone and they have taken it in is one issue

 

More importantly should these smaller coreless motors be sold with a resistor unless they are rated fully for 12 volts, or a warning that using them with older but not feedback controllers may damage them

 

Next the the ease of fitting them to gearboxes or motor mounts, not everyone is able to solder the motor to a motor mount/gearbox whilst maintaining an accurate meshing of the gears

 

Last of all are these very high revving motors suitable for model trains ?

 

I accept there are those who seem to have a knack of adapting things, equally others who struggle to drill a hole. 

[AndyID]

11 hours ago, Izzy said:

No coreless motor should be used with the low frequency feedback DC controllers of any age produce. They don’t have mass, the iron core heat sink that iron rotor types have - to absorb the heat generally generated. DCC uses high frequency feedback. 
 

As a general rule no efficient motor should be used with DC feedback and for all N gauge it is certainly advised against.  But we have been here many times on various threads.

 

Izzy

 

I'm not sure it's simply a matter of efficiency. Iron cored DC motors can be very efficient too and they work with high and low frequency feedback systems.

 

Coreless motors were developed for applications that require rapid acceleration/deceleration and removing the inertia of a rotating iron core makes that possible. Due to the reduced inertia, with low frequency feedback when the power is removed to allow the system to sample the back EMF a coreless motor slows down significantly . When power is restored the motor immediately tries to accelerate back to the speed demanded by the voltage input.

 

It's the constant deceleration/acceleration that produces the waste heat. The motor does not slow down anything like as much with high frequency sampling which is why it's not a problem with DCC.

 

At least that's my version of the theory    If I'm right a coreless motor with a flywheel should not have a problem running on a low frequency feedback controller.

 

Flying off at a tangent, it is possible to make a feedback controller that never pulses the power on and off. It simply adjusts the DC voltage to maintain constant speed. I don't think anyone is manufacturing one that works that way at the moment.

 

Andy

[AndyID]

7 hours ago, hayfield said:

Last of all are these very high revving motors suitable for model trains ?

 

 

Hi John,

 

Not in my experience. I've tried small motors with large ratio reduction gears and the results were not satisfactory - they were extremely noisy and gutless.

 

I thought I could get a lot of torque from a small motor with a large gear ratio but unfortunately large ratio gears tend to be very inefficient and they waste a lot of the power produced from a small, high-revving motor. These days I go for the largest diameter motor that will fit to get as much torque as possible and the lowest ratio reduction gear to maintain efficiency.

 

Cheers!

Andy

 

 

[hayfield]

4 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

Hi John,

 

Not in my experience. I've tried small motors with large ratio reduction gears and the results were not satisfactory - they were extremely noisy and gutless.

 

I thought I could get a lot of torque from a small motor with a large gear ratio but unfortunately large ratio gears tend to be very inefficient and they waste a lot of the power produced from a small, high-revving motor. These days I go for the largest diameter motor that will fit to get as much torque as possible and the lowest ratio reduction gear to maintain efficiency.

 

Cheers!

Andy

 

 

 

 

Andy

 

Just as I thought and it may be this which damages the motors

[Izzy]

With apologies to the OP for getting rather off-topic I feel Andy’s quite right with coreless response to current level variations and his thoughts on flywheels with coreless interesting. I am not a fan of flywheels as such so have never considered this aspect. However servos are small motors with high-ratio boxes - the popular SG90’s are around 320-1 and I have some 7.5gm ones that are 612-1 and although they are of course noisy through the use of multi-stage spur gears the power they produce is quite significant. I don’t recognise some experiences and wonder how high ratio reductions can damage a motor, but in fairness to the OP this thread is not the place to discuss such matters interesting though they may be.

 

Izzy

[friscopete]

A lot us H0  brass bashers on US sites are using 6 pole 15 mm /18 mm Mabuchi  square motors which give huge low  down  grunt .Not for racehorses more like hefty shires  .Minibea  in China  and others sell them on ebay for a miniscule price .There are several sizes .

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by friscopete

[Michael Edge]

The 15mm square motors work well but they do run a bit hot.