Lined or unlined?

[snowy1051]

Hi there, could someone please tell me if these engines were turned out when new with or without lining. This one, 43081, I guess has just been shopped as it now carries the later BR crest. It was built at Darlington in 1950 so would have carried the earlier crest when new. 43070 is carrying the earlier BR crest, also Darlington built 1950. I have several pictures of the Horwich built double chimney locos, all lined out, but now would like a large number single chimney loco. Plain black is so much easier than lined!! Many thanks for any info. I do not know who took the pictures, so unable to credit them. 

[bike2steam]

The issue of lining, and livery with this class is a minefield of variations depending on where they were shopped, even Stratford, and Cowlairs threw in variations as well as Darlington, and Doncaster, the Irwell Press book, on the class, outlines most of it - good luck!!

Edited October 15, 2020 by bike2steam

[The Johnster]

Depends on your period as well.  I did not encounter them until 1963, and do not recall any unlined by or after that, but I’m no expert.  It’s always best to work from dated and verified photos when you can, but of course you can’t always, in which case guesstimation and Rule 1 come into play.  If in doubt, especially for the 50s, I’d go for unlined black, as you can always line the loco later if better info comes to light.  Lining is easier to apply than to remove, and if you can’t find out what the actual livery was, nobody else will be able to either...

 

[Steamport Southport]

When new? I think they were all unlined when built. Lining came later and not all got it. Out of all the regions I think it was mostly LMR ones which got lined.

 

Early ones 3000 to 43049. First 12 LMS Black. Later ones from this batch got British Railways on the tender. Some appeared with the M prefix. It was this batch which had double chimneys.

 

Next batch definitely BR Black early crest.

 

Another thing to be careful of is many ER and ScR examples got tablet exchange gear.

 

 

Jason

 

[The Johnster]

Any built and painted before 1/6/48 would have been in LMS livery, those built and painted between 1/1/48 and 31/5/49 carrying no LMS branding and it is most probably these that had the M prefix.  Post 1/6/48 the standard liveries were adopted and at least in theory these were mixed traffic locos and should have been given lined out black LNWR type BR livery and 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' Gill Sans on the tender.  The next change was the unicycling lion, in August of 1949.  But here is clear photographic evidence of Darlington works painting new and overhauled Ivatt 4MTs unlined black, perhaps because the larger Darlington numbers would not fit in the lined cabside panel.  

 

These locos were superseded by the Riddles standard 4MT mogul, the 76xxx, which AFAIK always carried lined black livery.

[DaveF]

 

I've been through Dad's photos and have sorted out a few of Ivatt Class 4s taken around 1948 to 1952.  Most are the double chimney versions.

 

I think the years are correct, if I am at all unsure I prefixed the year with c for circa.

 

 

Cambridge 2 Ivatt Class 4s pass Bletchley to Cambridge and E4 1948 JVol2139.jpg

 

 

Cambridge Hills Road loco shed LMS 4MT 3001 1948 JVol1257.jpg

 

 

Cambridge Ivatt 4MT M3003 Cambridge to Bletchley c1948 JVol1034.jpg

 

 

Linby MR Ivatt 4MT 43019 down goods c1951JVol4247.jpg

 

 

Lenton North Junction 43019 Ivatt 4MT up goods c1950 JVol2159.jpg

 

 

Lenton Junction Nottingham Ivatt 4MT 43019 down gods c1950 JVol1050.jpg

 

 

Nottingham London Road Junction 43040 c1948 JVol1092.jpg

 

 

Nottingham London Road Junction Ivatt 4MT 43119 ecs c1952 JVol2185.jpg

 

 

David

[pH]

11 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Another thing to be careful of is many ER and ScR examples got tablet exchange gear.

Sorry - a bit OT. I was surprised to read that about Scottish Region engines. I went and checked some photos online and found that yes, some did have catcher recesses on the tender - I had not known that. My problem was that I had actually seen some of those engines - so much for my powers of observation!