Purpose of internal user coal wagons

[eastglosmog]

6 hours ago, PatB said:

In the North East, didn't the archaic chaldron wagon survive very late in internal use too? I'd be intrigued to know just how late. 

They certainly worked at Seaham Harbour until the late 1960s

[65179]

6 hours ago, PatB said:

In the North East, didn't the archaic chaldron wagon survive very late in internal use too? I'd be intrigued to know just how late. 

 

According to this thread: 

 

 

some at Seaham Harbour made it into the 70s. Certainly there's other info elsewhere that the Seaham Harbour chsldron wagons were in use and indeed being repaired in 1965.

 

Simon

[doilum]

3 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

They certainly worked at Seaham Harbour until the late 1960s

Definitely in the background shots of Get Carter in 1970/1

Edited October 18, 2020 by doilum
Text error

[Caledonian]

I'm slightly surprised nobody has mentioned rivers

 

The early railways began as waggonways taking coal from the pits directly down to staithes [loading docks, not storage bins] on the rivers - usually the Tyne and the Wear, but there were also examples in Scotland,

 

These gave rise to extensive colliery railway systems, for example Backw,orth on Tyneside and the Wemyss in Fife, which involved huge  fleets of colliery-owned wagons hauled by colliery-owned locomotives taking coal directly from the pit to the ship without any intervention by British Railways or its predecessor companies.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Caledonian said:

I'm slightly surprised nobody has mentioned rivers

 

The early railways began as waggonways taking coal from the pits directly down to staithes [loading docks, not storage bins] on the rivers - usually the Tyne and the Wear, but there were also examples in Scotland,

 

These gave rise to extensive colliery railway systems, for example Backw,orth on Tyneside and the Wemyss in Fife, which involved huge  fleets of colliery-owned wagons hauled by colliery-owned locomotives taking coal directly from the pit to the ship without any intervention by British Railways or its predecessor companies.

 

This starts to blur the distinction between internal user wagons and wagons used on private railways - the Lambton Railway has been mentioned, the Londonderry Railway was another major example. 

[dvdlcs]

19 hours ago, Tim V said:

 

Assuming the wooden wagons are generally 9' wheelbase, the third from the left looks somewhat shorter. Might've been an interesting survivor from an earlier date.

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, dvdlcs said:

 

Assuming the wooden wagons are generally 9' wheelbase, the third from the left looks somewhat shorter. Might've been an interesting survivor from an earlier date.

 

By the same token, the one to its left looks longer than typical.

[Fat Controller]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This starts to blur the distinction between internal user wagons and wagons used on private railways - the Lambton Railway has been mentioned, the Londonderry Railway was another major example. 

Surely, the distinction is that internal-use wagons are not authorised to run on the national network, whilst 'normal' wagons have been approved and registered. It's not to do with the size of the private railway, but whether the stock meets the requisite standards, and has been accepted as doing so by the Railway Undertakings. Approved stock carried a cast plate, with the vehicle ID, and the identity of the approving body (initially, the railway companies, then the British Railways Board; not sure who does it now, I believe it is an authorised Vehicle Approval Body.)

[doilum]

Perhaps not universal but some collieries had wagons for a specific task. Both Whitwood and Glasshoughton ( and possibly Prince of Wales Pontefract) had a pair of 21ton steel hopper wagons used exclusively for taking house coal from the screens to the landsale drops. These probably replaced wooden 20ton NE hoppers which, along with the 13;ton version were commonly found.

Does any one have any information on the pair of side tipping slurry wagons that are slowly returning to nature at the National Coalmining Museum? One day I will get round to finishing the model I started!

Edited October 18, 2020 by doilum
Additional information

[Compound2632]

54 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Surely, the distinction is that internal-use wagons are not authorised to run on the national network, whilst 'normal' wagons have been approved and registered. It's not to do with the size of the private railway, but whether the stock meets the requisite standards, and has been accepted as doing so by the Railway Undertakings. Approved stock carried a cast plate, with the vehicle ID, and the identity of the approving body (initially, the railway companies, then the British Railways Board; not sure who does it now, I believe it is an authorised Vehicle Approval Body.)

 

It's more a difference of perception: "internal user" conjuring up the image of decrepit retired stock.

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It's more a difference of perception: "internal user" conjuring up the image of decrepit retired stock.

You'd be pushed to get anything more decrepit than some of the BR stock used to carry anthracite duff. I know of one that shed a large part of its body, following a hard brake application at Sandy Bridge, Llanelli, whilst I have previously mentioned those that lost large chunks of bodywork to the scrap magnets at BSC Landore.

A lot of NCB I/U stock was relatively modern, some being purpose-built, others acquisitions off the 'big railway'. Some of the latter were virtually brand-new.

[Caledonian]

7 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

 

A lot of NCB I/U stock was relatively modern, some being purpose-built, others acquisitions off the 'big railway'. Some of the latter were virtually brand-new.

 

Quite, the point about the the bigger colliery railways is that they were exactly that. The Backworth system was used specifically to haul coal from the colliery down to the staithes on the Tyne. The huge Ashington system did the same to Blyth, and likewise the Harton system on the other side of the Tyne to name but three - and of course the Wemyss system in Fife. All of these featured extensive fleets of well maintained locomotives and rolling stock and all until the uniformity [ish] of NCB days lettered up accordingly. Even the Lambton and the Londonderry railways fell into that category s they serviced multiple pits in common ownership.

[The Johnster]

In the 60s and 70s the bulk of NCB I/U wagons were XPO 7 plankers, and some were in surprisingly good and clean condition, having been overhauled when the NCB acquired them and quickly repainted to prevent their mistaken use by BR from exchange sidings or small colliery yards.  As Brian W says, some BR wagons were in much worse condition at this time, though the cull of what what we called  'brokers' was constant, enabled by the continual fall in traffic; by about '75 the worst of them had probably mostly been weeded out, by the process of being declared cripples and then scrapped as there was no budget to repair them.  'OJO' was used where they were carrying loads, One Journey Only, to the carded destination for unloading and in theory to a yard with a C & W examiner, but often straight to scrap unless the fault was very minor.

 

An internal user NCB 7 planker might have been built 40 or more years before in the early 70s, but would be one refurbished by BR in the 50s and would have a fairly easy life at some collieries, working short distances at low speeds.  A major cause of 'wear' on a wooden bodied wagon is that the wagon 'works' the body, flexing it, in faster running, which means that over time the fixings work loose and the wagon begins to disintegrate.  The sides bow outwards under load, doors to not close properly, and this is more likely to cause problems out on a running line than shuffiling around on a colliery system, even a large one.

 

By the early 70s, BR's steel minerals and hoppers were running about at 45mph on part fitted trains, 50 for some of the hoppers, while the NCB rarely exceeded 15 mph.  The movement of a rake of 16t minerals in a part fitted train as observed from the brake van is, um. interesting...

Edited October 19, 2020 by The Johnster

[doilum]

Presumably collieries needed internal user wagons during the war. It is not beyond the bounds of imagination to think of a colliery owner cherry picking the best of his fleet for internal use before surrendering the rest to the pool. Perhaps I need to take a closer look at the photos of those 7plank survivors.

Postwar of course there was a crippling steel shortage. It was easily within the scope of a colliery workshop to rebuild a wooden wagon from the frames up.

Not surprisingly, it is difficult to find close up shots of wagons. !y feeling is however, that the majority have split spoke wheels (dating them to the 1920s?). They are mostly square and straight adding weight to the "Triggers broom" theory. Some have three hole disc wheels and at least one appears to have a mixed set.

Edited October 20, 2020 by doilum
Additional information

[Tim V]

I remember there being some fascinating older wagons at Kilmersdon (than 1923 RCH), including grease bearings, even rounded ends.

 

After closure, the best of the wagons were cherry picked for by preservationists, some going to Radstock (eventually Washford, where they disintegrated) and some to Cranmore ( none left there last time I looked).

[Gordon A]

On 18/10/2020 at 12:16, dvdlcs said:

 

Assuming the wooden wagons are generally 9' wheelbase, the third from the left looks somewhat shorter. Might've been an interesting survivor from an earlier date.

I think the springs and axle boxes have become detached from the chassis and moved to the right.

 

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Gordon A said:

I think the springs and axle boxes have become detached from the chassis and moved to the right.

 

And axleguards too, that are stoutly bolted to the solebar?

[Welchester]

2 hours ago, doilum said:

Postwar of course there was a crippling steel shortage. It was easily within the scope of a colliery workshop to rebuild a wooden wagon from the frames up.

 

Indeed. Cannock Chase Colliery was even able to build a locomotive out of spare parts.