00 full length trains

[dan_the_v8man]

Has anyone experience of running full length trains in 00? Did you have any issues with tractive effort and negotiating radii? 

 

I've got images of a rake of 30+ MGR wagons taking a shortcut across the first corner 

 

(Hasten to add I have used the search function but not found a great deal so if it has been covered before please direct me to the post!) 

[Dungrange]

What radii are you using?  I've seen plenty of scale length trains on exhibition layouts, but they generally don't use train set radius curves.

[dan_the_v8man]

Just now, Dungrange said:

What radii are you using?  I've seen plenty of scale length trains on exhibition layouts, but they generally don't use train set radius curves.

I'm not yet, I'm still in the design phase but was thinking minimum of 3rd and 4th radius for the none scenic sections 

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 minutes ago, dan_the_v8man said:

Has anyone experience of running full length trains in 00? Did you have any issues with tractive effort and negotiating radii? 

 

I've got images of a rake of 30+ MGR wagons taking a shortcut across the first corner 

 

(Hasten to add I have used the search function but not found a great deal so if it has been covered before please direct me to the post!) 

 

Going way back (60 years ago), Ken Northwood ran long trains on his North Devonshire layout with a 2'3" return loop. But the wagons have to be very well engineered to run very freely.

[Grizz]

Yes I run scale length trains. No probs with traction. Usually double head if in doubt. Also modern centrally mounted motors with heavy chassis normally do the job. 
 

 

[dan_the_v8man]

6 minutes ago, Grizz said:

Yes I run scale length trains. No probs with traction. Usually double head if in doubt. Also modern centrally mounted motors with heavy chassis normally do the job. 
 

 

Thanks!

 

What's the smallest radius you have? 

[Grizz]

Got to admit these aren’t on ‘trainset curves’, but there is a reasonable grade...

 

 

[Oldddudders]

I assume this is just about shorter-wheelbase freight wagons? I have run my HO 10-car California Zephyr with no problems, and as the cars are 85' feet long that must be about 10' of train behind the locos. Not an issue around the couple of 2' or so radius curves on my layout. A shop in Indiana used to boast that they regularly ran a 100-car HO freight train on their layout, and invited visitors to come and watch it. Get the vehicle weight right and you should be ok. 

[Grizz]

19 minutes ago, dan_the_v8man said:

Thanks!

 

What's the smallest radius you have? 

Probably 1m radius at the bottom end of the layout but that isn’t on one of the main running lines, it is on one of the stabling loops. So speeds are low and nearly all wagons are bogie wagons, which helps.

[MartynJPearson]

No problems experienced running :

 

8 car HST (Lima coaches, Hornby DCC power cars)

6-9 Mk1 coach trains with Bachmann 20, 45, 47 and Hornby 31

9 (would like to be longer, maybe one day) TEA tankers with Hornby 31, Bachmann 37 and 47

 

One minor issue I had with MGRs (16 of) was nothing to do with traction,  more down to their stubborn insistence on following their version of physics and not mine. Periodically they would decide that the path of least resistance on a Peco diamond crossing was to take the track at the angle and not go straight. This was largely solved through chocking the bogies so that they were unable to rotate.

 

Layout uses trainset curves (minimum 3rd radius) in non scenic sections, otherwise Peco streamline with med radius points. Locos are all DCC though, so pretty heavy.

[dan_the_v8man]

34 minutes ago, MartynJPearson said:

No problems experienced running :

 

8 car HST (Lima coaches, Hornby DCC power cars)

6-9 Mk1 coach trains with Bachmann 20, 45, 47 and Hornby 31

9 (would like to be longer, maybe one day) TEA tankers with Hornby 31, Bachmann 37 and 47

 

One minor issue I had with MGRs (16 of) was nothing to do with traction,  more down to their stubborn insistence on following their version of physics and not mine. Periodically they would decide that the path of least resistance on a Peco diamond crossing was to take the track at the angle and not go straight. This was largely solved through chocking the bogies so that they were unable to rotate.

 

Layout uses trainset curves (minimum 3rd radius) in non scenic sections, otherwise Peco streamline with med radius points. Locos are all DCC though, so pretty heavy.

 

I'm assuming that's the newest model of the MGRs? And other than the diamond crossing all was good? I'm not planning on any diamond crossings  

[KDG]

Hi Dan.

 

My trainset,can't call it a layout as there's no scenery yet, just track on a board uses 3rd and 4th radius setrack curves.  I run a 30 wagon MHA / MFA / MTA rake and a similar length rake of POA's.  I have a 13 coach Pullman set, and 15 Dapol IOA's.  No trouble at all with modern model locos.

 

Trick is to ensure it's laid flat and kink free especially transitions into curves and points.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited October 16, 2020 by KDG
Missing word

[dan_the_v8man]

1 hour ago, KDG said:

Hi Dan.

 

My trainset,can't call it a layout as there's no scenery yet, just track on a board uses 3rd and 4th setrack curves.  I run a 30 wagon MHA / MFA / MTA rake and a similar length rake of POA's.  I have a 13 coach Pullman set, and 15 Dapol IOA's.  No trouble at all with modern model locos.

 

Trick is to ensure it's laid flat and kink free especially transitions into curves and points.

 

Hope this helps.

Well that certainly gives me a degree of confidence! 

[The Johnster]

There is a bit on Tony Wright's thread about this.  His layout is a recreation of Little Bytham on the ECML in the 50s, scale length trains running at scale speeds, i.e. 60 wagon fitted freights at 60mph and 14 coach expresses hauled by Pacifics in the mid to high 90s.  It is a typical continuous run 'serious' layout with the scenic part on one side of a long oval and the fy on the other, with 180 degree curves at each end.  These are obviously not setrack curves as Tony's layout is in a purpose built shed that allows 6' radius and scale speeds.  His oft-repeated complaint about RTR locos when compared to kit built ones is that the RTR locos can not pull realistic loads at realistic speeds.  This is steam outline of course; diesel or electric locos can house much bigger, more powerful, motors, and multiple unit formations can have more than one power car.  In fact the dummy power car is a bit of a waste in a sense, adding load to a train it should be adding power to.

 

There are several factors at play here.  I can sort of see where Tony Wright's RTR locos' lack of power comes from; costs must be kept down, motors hidden to show full cab detail, and daylight beneath boilers where applicable, and very few modellers can run scale length trains at scale speeds, so the market won't thank you for adding power to a loco at 50% or whatever bump in the cost and the inability to shoehorn DCC bells and whistles circuitry and speakers aboard the model.  

 

But you should be ok, if:-

 

, Your baseboards are flat and rigid, and the track is laid smoothly to each adjoining piece, with transition curves and possibly cant where fast running is to be undertaken.

 

. You do not attempt to run locos or stock around tighter radius curves than the manufacturer recommends, and my take on this is that it's better to make that a curve number above the manufacturer's recommendation if you want to run fast.

 

. Your locos and stock have all-metal wheels and pinpoint bearings, brass where required as in kits etc.  

 

. You standardise on one manufacturer's coupling (do not believe that all types and makes of tension locks are compatible, they're not), and standardise absolutely on the height of the bar above the railhead for t/ls.  

 

. A rigid standard back to back measurement is instituted for all wheelsets.

 

. The layout has no gradients.  If it does, ensure that these are as gentle as can be managed and that vertical transition curves are provided at the top and bottom.  Do not make the mistake of assuming a gradient average between points is the limiting factor to haulage; it is the steepest part that makes the difference.

 

. Try as far as possible to establish a standard axle loading on all your vehicles.  This will be a compromise and set by trial and error; you are aiming for a weight that will allow scale loads to be carried but that is not so light that your wagons are difficult to keep on the track.  Ensure that bogie vehicles have the weight equally distributed to each bogie.  

 

. Check that you do not have buffer locking issues on sharper curves, especially with long wheelbase rigid framed 4- and 6-wheelers, or ECML pacific tenders.

 

. Free running wheelsets are more important to the maximum load a loco can haul than dead weight.  

 

. Drive smoothly around curves and do not jerk or snatch your train.  

[Dagworth]

I run full length trains on my layout Ravensclyffe without any problems, 36 wagon rakes of HAAs - and lots of them - are a feature of the layout as is a 25 set freightliner (I like running it empty apart from one box at the back!)

 

 

 

While minimum radius on visible parts of the main line is around 60inches there is a 24inch radius curve on the exit from one of the fiddle yards. 

Maximum gradient is around 1 in 60, most of the layout is 1 in 120 or level. I have no problem with single locos handling realistic length trains.

 

Andi

[Michael Edge]

The couplings used might be a significant factor in this, the standard UK coupler (and the popular Sprat & Winkle) uses two offset hooks between each vehicle which produces an off centre pull.

Full length, often very heavy trains are run routinely on the huge model of Carlisle which I am involved with but all couplings are either three link/screw or Kadee, all of which have a more or less central pull. The minimum radius on this layout is  54". On my own Wentworth Junction layout I can run full length "double load" trains of 60 coal wagons on a minimum radius of well under 36", this with DG couplers which also use a central pull - and one 2-8-0 can pull these (empty) up 1 in 40 and round the sharpest curve with no great difficulty. I have no doubt that 34 wagon MGR trains will run just as well - if I ever get round to acquiring enough of them.

 

[TheQ]

Part of the problem is modern plastic models are so light,  the pull of the locomotive exceeding weight holding them down.  The tighter the radius the greater this problem causes.

 

There is an old recommendation of weighting wagons or carriages,  to be at least 50grams or 2 ounces per pair of axles. This may well sort many issues out. 

[KDG]

Modern rolling stock is all designed to go around minimum of 2nd radius curves, so no buffer locking when pushing as long as couplings all at same height, which is critical. 

 

They also now have free running metal wheelsets, but ensure back to backs are set right using a gauge.

 

I've standardized kit built wagons to use Bachmann mini tension locks and parkside mounting blocks set at the correct height. This allows a bit of side to side movement which you'll need on setrack curves.  Also metal wheels in brass pinpoint bearings.

 

On long rakes of coaches that have coupling self-centering mechanisms you'll need to use a rigid coupling between vehicles such as Hornby's roco style, or Bachmann's pipe style coupling.

[FoxUnpopuli]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

... off centre pull.  [vs]... a more or less central pull.

 

I'd not thought of this but this is probably more due to lack of recent experience...  but yes, this makes a lot of sense.

 

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

. Try as far as possible to establish a standard axle loading on all your vehicles.  This will be a compromise and set by trial and error; you are aiming for a weight that will allow scale loads to be carried but that is not so light that your wagons are difficult to keep on the track.  Ensure that bogie vehicles have the weight equally distributed to each bogie.

 

22 minutes ago, TheQ said:

There is an old recommendation of weighting wagons or carriages,  to be at least 50grams or 2 ounces per pair of axles. This may well sort many issues out. 

 

Combining these two gets us to a 'rule' of 25 gram/1 oz per axle.  Is that a sensible interpretation?

 

For a bogie wagon (or coach) does that mean 100 grams?  (it should, but just asking...)

 

[jcm@gwr]

I'm guessing from most of the answers here, that not many have been to Miniatur Wunderland! 

You'll start to get an appreciation of how long trains can be, they have multiple certificates from

Guinness for worlds longest model train (they keep breaking their own record!)

They have full length trains running all day, every day, a group of us (friends from the local MRC)

went just before lockdown, we were blown away, it's incredible.

[jonny777]

7 hours ago, Dagworth said:

I run full length trains on my layout Ravensclyffe without any problems, 36 wagon rakes of HAAs - and lots of them - are a feature of the layout as is a 25 set freightliner (I like running it empty apart from one box at the back!)

 

 

 

While minimum radius on visible parts of the main line is around 60inches there is a 24inch radius curve on the exit from one of the fiddle yards. 

Maximum gradient is around 1 in 60, most of the layout is 1 in 120 or level. I have no problem with single locos handling realistic length trains.

 

Andi

 

 

I love the catenary on this video. From that camera angle it really does look like the real thing. 

 

 

[MartynJPearson]

14 hours ago, dan_the_v8man said:

 

I'm assuming that's the newest model of the MGRs? And other than the diamond crossing all was good? I'm not planning on any diamond crossings  

No, they were the old ones - although I did talk to someone at a show who was running long MGR trains and they said they were using the newer ones and had no issues. I did replace the wheels too which helped, but it seemed to be the chocking of the bogies which solved the problem.

[sulzer27jd]

16 minutes ago, MartynJPearson said:

No, they were the old ones - although I did talk to someone at a show who was running long MGR trains and they said they were using the newer ones and had no issues. I did replace the wheels too which helped, but it seemed to be the chocking of the bogies which solved the problem.

If you are talking about the old HAA wagons with the internal pivot for the axles, I found that locking them up and fitting new metal wheels helped with running quality. 

 

 

John

[eastglosmog]

I can claim to run full length trains, as a mix of 19 loaded 10 and 12 ton open wagons is about the limit for a Collett 2251 class 0-6-0 up the 1 in 80 banks of the East Gloucestershire Railway.  And yes, my Bachy does it with ease.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

With my Hornby HAAs (the early models), I glued-up one of the pivoting axle assemblies so that only one pivoted. I found they ran much better and behaved themselves.