Jump to content

Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Gold
13 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

With my Hornby HAAs (the early models), I glued-up one of the pivoting axle assemblies so that only one pivoted. I found they ran much better and behaved themselves.

 

Interesting. Just bought 17 of them 2nd hand via eBay in the last week, and although they'll cope ok at lowish speeds on my outermost circuit, they aren't so good on tighter curves. New wheels, extra weight will also be tried.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The "pivotal" axle arrangement on the Hornby wagon was truly awful and definitely needs locking up. Returning to couplers and the reference to Miniatur Wunderland, European couplers are mostly of the central pull variety. With regard to wagon weights the 60 wagon empty train on my layout at the moment has wagons of all sorts of weight randomly distributed  (just as they came out of the stock boxes) and there are no derailments. Round the ends of the layout the two ends of the train are running in opposite directions. Loaded trains (with Woodland Scenics cinder ballast as coal) are a different matter but I only run trains of 30 fulls and they always have a banker or two on the back up the 1 in 40.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

With my Hornby HAAs (the early models), I glued-up one of the pivoting axle assemblies so that only one pivoted. I found they ran much better and behaved themselves.

 

I didn't manage to reliably glue them so ended up putting a strip of plasticard at the back which chocked them straight. When I tried gluing I found that they soon broke free and pivoted again, so would be interested in which glue you used as I might have another go. Saves having them all upside down when I find a bit of plasticard on the tracks to work out which one it's come off!

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, TheQ said:

 

There is an old recommendation of weighting wagons or carriages,  to be at least 50grams or 2 ounces per pair of axles. This may well sort many issues out. 

 

A good principle to aim for, but not always easy to achieve in practice.  Some types of wagons are very difficult to model empty and provide hidden ballast for, lowmac/loriots being particularly 'bad' in this respect.  Modern RTR vehicles are far too light, and so are locomotives, and plastic kits such as Parkside, Cambrian, or Kitmaster, are worse!  But even 25g/1oz per axle might defeat some RTR locos on long trains.  Of course, even on real railways, nobody expected 0-6-0s to shift 15 bogie coaches at 50mph, or haul 60 wagon loaded coal trains up steep gradients, but they were expected to run ecs from carriage sidings to termini, and move very heavy loads of coal at low speeds in marshalling yards.  A model should be able to replicate the performance of the prototype, so a type 4 diesel or 7P steam loco should be able to manage 12 coaches at scale 90 on the level, or a type 3 diesel or 5MT steam should be able to manage 600 tons+ of fully fitted vans at 60mph.  Most RTR locos cannot manage this without extra ballast added, and some not even then. 

 

But weight does not scale down in proportion; a model 60 wagon loaded coal train loaded with real coal is not 1/76th of the weight of the real one, it is proportionally much heavier and a big ask of a plastic bodied 2-8-0, never mind the 0-6-2Ts that used to haul such loads in South Wales!  One cheats, by having foam inserts in the wagon hidden by a top layer of coal, and stuffs one's 56xx with ballast...

 

Empty RTR open wagons such as 16ton minerals, as well as vans and coaches, are usually similarly proportionally overweight, which is why haulage is compromised for many RTR locos.  Standardised couplings, free running wheelsets, level track, and curves as large a radius as you can manage are recommended, along with as much ballast over the driven wheels as you can cram in, as RTR plastic locos need all the help they can get to handle heavy trains smoothly.  All model railways are a compromise, and I have achieved very high running standards, but it is only a small BLT and I don't run full length trains.  The radius compromises are at the fy throat, and include for 2 roads a no,3 setrack curve as the inner curve of a curved turnout, no.4 being the minimum for the other roads.  I can haul and propel all my stock anywhere on the layout, but a 64' Hawksworth BG requires careful propelling on the no.3!  

 

The core of this is heavy, solid, permanent baseboards firmly supported, a location in the heated and ventilated part of the property which avoids expansion/contraction issues, carefully laid track particularly turnouts, and only then attention to locos, stock, couplings, and buffers.

 

6 hours ago, KDG said:

so no buffer locking when pushing as long as couplings all at same height, which is critical. 

 

Your faith in human nature is an inspiration to all young people, KDG, but to be fair you do mention having 'adjusted' your tension locks to a standard bar height using Parkside mounts, something I do also.  Tension locks are claimed by manufacturers of RTR and kits to be standard and compatible, which is a foul and damnable lie!  To provide reliable performance and avoid buffer lock, you need a standardised bar height above the rail head, and then on top of that if you are mixing brands of couplings you have to contend with differences in the bar width, bar profile, hook profile, pivot point of hook, material coupling is made out of, depth and shape of droppers, and how far out from the buffer beam the coupling projects.  An additional fun feature of British/European operation is that rigid chassis and bogied vehicles are required to couple together, and some locos will be long vehicles with rigidly mounted couplings (Z class 0-8-0) or couplings protruding through fairings (Class  52).  

 

Coupling up a train of a variety of types of stock with a variety of t/l couplings out of the box and running it is a virtual guarantee of a derailments...

 

6 hours ago, FoxUnpopuli said:

Combining these two gets us to a 'rule' of 25 gram/1 oz per axle.  Is that a sensible interpretation?

 

For a bogie wagon (or coach) does that mean 100 grams?  (it should, but just asking...)

 

100g/4oz evenly distributed, yes, ideally, the best you can do in practice.  For a bogie vehicle I recommend that 50g/20z or ball park ballast is provided above the bogie pivots; RTR insist on putting it between the bogies which seems to work despite what I think.  Again, hiding it might be a problem in some cases, esp, bogie bolsters or container flats.

 

If you have semi-permanently coupled rakes that can 'live' on the layout without being uncoupled within the rake, it is better to use bar coupling alternatives, and the running of my steam era mineral rakes has been much improved by fitting them with James' Trains (no connection happy customer) NEM 3D instanters from Shapeways.  Some of my passenger stock is semi-permanently coupled as well, but everything else has to come off the layout for storage as there is not enough room in the fy.  There is never enough room in the fy, any fy, which considering it represents the entire rest of the railway network is understandable...

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, MartynJPearson said:

I didn't manage to reliably glue them so ended up putting a strip of plasticard at the back which chocked them straight. When I tried gluing I found that they soon broke free and pivoted again, so would be interested in which glue you used as I might have another go. Saves having them all upside down when I find a bit of plasticard on the tracks to work out which one it's come off!

By gluing, I meant gluing strips somewhat along the lines you mention. Think I wrote about it in an article in the MRC in the early 1980s.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry Johnster if I haven't been clear.  I haven't adjusted any RTR coupling heights, just set the height of couplings on kit built wagons using Bachmann mini tension locks and parkside mounts.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MartynJPearson said:

I didn't manage to reliably glue them so ended up putting a strip of plasticard at the back which chocked them straight. When I tried gluing I found that they soon broke free and pivoted again, so would be interested in which glue you used as I might have another go. Saves having them all upside down when I find a bit of plasticard on the tracks to work out which one it's come off!


I also tried the plastic strip but in the end I used Evostik impact adhesive. I don’t have any HAAs but do have loads of Hornby SAA, OAA,VBA/VDA wagons and Ferry Vans, which all use the same Pivot. I pull out the wheels with the axle box assembly from the pivot and lightly coated both surfaces, left it ten minutes and reassembled it all back together. This allowed me time to do final adjustments as there is a tiny bit of play in the adhesive until it goes off hard. Left the wagons a few days before use and I have not had any come loose. I should add that I change all the wheels to newer metal ones. 

 

The result is a much improved reliability in general and almost never any derailments. I should also add that I always add this grease to the axle boxes of all my RTR and scratch built stock, both wagons and coaches. It works well for me. 

335E2385-24EB-4100-847D-C2B7D79844B5.jpeg.c19497226288942883cd8a292f33977d.jpeg

 

  • Like 2
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Another vote for Evo-Stik from me. 

 

I always use it for securing pivoting axle assemblies on wagons.  Did all my old Hornby HAAs, OBAs etc and replaced wheels with Hornby's metal ones;  glued both axle assemblies on each wagon and they negotiate the 2nd radius curves in my hidden sections no problem, and no wobbles or derailments.

 

I also use it to secure droopy tension lock couplings.

 

I've found It's still the best glue to stick a lot of plastics used on chassis etc.  Plus it gives plenty of time for adjustment before it sets.  Just always keep a cocktail stick or similar to hand to break the stringy glue after it comes out the nozzle!

 

I run quite long trains of 15x Hornby HAAs without problems.  Not full length as per the OP but a good compromise that suits the size of my layout.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

When I was in charge of the MRC's New Annington layout we ran 40 wagon MGR trains with no problems, 8 car HST pushing and pulling, 12 car coaching stock etc all with no problems. The MGRs had the swivel axles fied by the simplr expedient of heating a track pin and pushing it through the bogie and into the chassis, no glue required.

 

Go for the biggest radius you can.

 

As for steam locos, I've got a Finecast P class 0-6-6T that will pull 34 wagons on my layout, I've got a video of it but this site won't allow it because the file is too big.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm planning a layout with a 4th-standard radius in principle, with a 5th-ish radius laid outside. As others have said, go for the largest radius you can accommodate. Most of my wagons have 3-links or Kadees. 

 

The better the running qualities of the vehicle, the further back in the train. Having a poor running vehicle creates drag which will want to derail the train, as drawbar pull normally works in straight (ish ) lines, just like the big railway.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting timing for me on this question, i have a 23'x x 10' layout on two levels with a helix, the main level being in the shape of a big "U". The main curves are either 3rd & 4th radius settrack ones, or larger with flexitrack. After having laid the track and then spent ~a year proving the track (and making countless tweaks and adjustments) i am now at the stage where i'm pulling out whole rakes of wagons & coaches and test running them with different types of locos.

 

Heljan / Hornby (newer) / Bachmann / Vitrains diesels with 8-12 RTR coaches - no problems when using the coaches with the standard couplings. I've had to pay some attention to loosening the screws holding bogies on for some of the Bachmann coaches, but overall no major problems with coaching stock.

 

Wagons though...  one of the rakes i currently have out on test is a set of older Hornby MGRs. For these, re-wheeling is an absolute must. I haven't glued up one of the pivot points as others frequently suggest, yet... i likely will. My staging loops will hold a loco plus 22 HAAs but I've also been running trains of 30+ just for the heck of it. Weight is an issue for sure. Trains will run round and round without problems for the most part, but as soon as the smallest glitch arises things come off the rails. Right now the rake is running with 1 or 2 marbles in each wagon and it is much more stable this way.

 

What gets me more about the MRG rakes is the couplings though  - why oh why will a Hornby 56 not play nice with a rake of Hornby MGRs ! All the ones I've tried so far seem determined to rip the first hopper off the rails every time the train starts round a 4th radius curve !!  It is definitely a coupling thing because pairs of Bachmann 20s, Heljan/Vi/Bachy 47s are all no problem coupling wise.

 

All the other rakes of wagons I've been experimenting with have issues which are a combination of couplings (combinations of different types) and weight, but with a bit of experimenting - changing what wagons with which couplings are next to which, and adding extra weights on top or inside of wagons when they fall off - then i'm eventually getting them stable and consistent. A lot of my wagons are Parkside & Cambrian kits, but basically the same factors apply to both kit-built and RTR.

 

Overall, I'd say that full length trains are totally doable, but perhaps require a little bit of 'fine tuning' to get to the point of them being reliable runners.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, 47406 said:

Interesting timing for me on this question, i have a 23'x x 10' layout on two levels with a helix, the main level being in the shape of a big "U". The main curves are either 3rd & 4th radius settrack ones, or larger with flexitrack. After having laid the track and then spent ~a year proving the track (and making countless tweaks and adjustments) i am now at the stage where i'm pulling out whole rakes of wagons & coaches and test running them with different types of locos.

 

Heljan / Hornby (newer) / Bachmann / Vitrains diesels with 8-12 RTR coaches - no problems when using the coaches with the standard couplings. I've had to pay some attention to loosening the screws holding bogies on for some of the Bachmann coaches, but overall no major problems with coaching stock.

 

Wagons though...  one of the rakes i currently have out on test is a set of older Hornby MGRs. For these, re-wheeling is an absolute must. I haven't glued up one of the pivot points as others frequently suggest, yet... i likely will. My staging loops will hold a loco plus 22 HAAs but I've also been running trains of 30+ just for the heck of it. Weight is an issue for sure. Trains will run round and round without problems for the most part, but as soon as the smallest glitch arises things come off the rails. Right now the rake is running with 1 or 2 marbles in each wagon and it is much more stable this way.

 

What gets me more about the MRG rakes is the couplings though  - why oh why will a Hornby 56 not play nice with a rake of Hornby MGRs ! All the ones I've tried so far seem determined to rip the first hopper off the rails every time the train starts round a 4th radius curve !!  It is definitely a coupling thing because pairs of Bachmann 20s, Heljan/Vi/Bachy 47s are all no problem coupling wise.

 

All the other rakes of wagons I've been experimenting with have issues which are a combination of couplings (combinations of different types) and weight, but with a bit of experimenting - changing what wagons with which couplings are next to which, and adding extra weights on top or inside of wagons when they fall off - then i'm eventually getting them stable and consistent. A lot of my wagons are Parkside & Cambrian kits, but basically the same factors apply to both kit-built and RTR.

 

Overall, I'd say that full length trains are totally doable, but perhaps require a little bit of 'fine tuning' to get to the point of them being reliable runners.

The 56 has a floating coupling pocket that can move, the other locos don't. Maybe it's that causing issues? I suspect it's designed to get trains round second radius bends rather than assist full length trains 

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 47406 said:

Interesting timing for me on this question, i have a 23'x x 10' layout on two levels with a helix, the main level being in the shape of a big "U". The main curves are either 3rd & 4th radius settrack ones, or larger with flexitrack. After having laid the track and then spent ~a year proving the track (and making countless tweaks and adjustments) i am now at the stage where i'm pulling out whole rakes of wagons & coaches and test running them with different types of locos.

 

Heljan / Hornby (newer) / Bachmann / Vitrains diesels with 8-12 RTR coaches - no problems when using the coaches with the standard couplings. I've had to pay some attention to loosening the screws holding bogies on for some of the Bachmann coaches, but overall no major problems with coaching stock.

 

Wagons though...  one of the rakes i currently have out on test is a set of older Hornby MGRs. For these, re-wheeling is an absolute must. I haven't glued up one of the pivot points as others frequently suggest, yet... i likely will. My staging loops will hold a loco plus 22 HAAs but I've also been running trains of 30+ just for the heck of it. Weight is an issue for sure. Trains will run round and round without problems for the most part, but as soon as the smallest glitch arises things come off the rails. Right now the rake is running with 1 or 2 marbles in each wagon and it is much more stable this way.

 

What gets me more about the MRG rakes is the couplings though  - why oh why will a Hornby 56 not play nice with a rake of Hornby MGRs ! All the ones I've tried so far seem determined to rip the first hopper off the rails every time the train starts round a 4th radius curve !!  It is definitely a coupling thing because pairs of Bachmann 20s, Heljan/Vi/Bachy 47s are all no problem coupling wise.

 

All the other rakes of wagons I've been experimenting with have issues which are a combination of couplings (combinations of different types) and weight, but with a bit of experimenting - changing what wagons with which couplings are next to which, and adding extra weights on top or inside of wagons when they fall off - then i'm eventually getting them stable and consistent. A lot of my wagons are Parkside & Cambrian kits, but basically the same factors apply to both kit-built and RTR.

 

Overall, I'd say that full length trains are totally doable, but perhaps require a little bit of 'fine tuning' to get to the point of them being reliable runners.

Locos fitted with coupling self centering mechanisms can cause derailments with the first wagon of a rake if the wagon doesn't have a ccm. Check that the ccm on the loco doesn't stick through the full range of movement. One of my class 60s did, but a tip on here said lubricate with graphite from a pencil, which worked perfectly.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KDG said:

Locos fitted with coupling self centering mechanisms can cause derailments with the first wagon of a rake if the wagon doesn't have a ccm. Check that the ccm on the loco doesn't stick through the full range of movement. One of my class 60s did, but a tip on here said lubricate with graphite from a pencil, which worked perfectly.


Had a similar problem with my Dapol class 68s on long trains. My earlier post with the video of the 68 and Bachmann 66 hauling 57 wagons was a result of having to combine two trains, with the 68 leading the 66. The 68 was originally on 40 Dapol bogie hoppers, which are great wagons with very free running bogies, but the CCM on the 68 kept extending longitudinally and laterally on curves derailing the lead wagon bogie as the train came out of the curves, through the transition in to straight track. 
 

So the 66 was put inside the 68 and the two trains were conbined and no derailments occurred, even with 57 wagons. The Bachmann 66 coupling has lateral movement but appears to have no longitudinal movement. I guess that’s why it works better with the heavy train. 
 

I also noticed that the Hornby wagons with the pivot system would often derail when decelerating, either by my action of slowing the train or as the train slowed as it went through curves. The coupling rubbing plate seem to ride up and cause derailment.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, KDG said:

Locos fitted with coupling self centering mechanisms can cause derailments with the first wagon of a rake if the wagon doesn't have a ccm. Check that the ccm on the loco doesn't stick through the full range of movement. One of my class 60s did, but a tip on here said lubricate with graphite from a pencil, which worked perfectly.

Close coupling mechanisms have to be used with rigid couplers or they are prone to move to the side in the 'wide' position when pulling a heavy load. If they pull to the wrong side before a corner they will derail. I don't understand why most stock that comes with close couplers only has tension lock couplers in the box, Bachmann are better in this regard supplying solid coupler bars fortunately.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, 47406 said:

What gets me more about the MRG rakes is the couplings though  - why oh why will a Hornby 56 not play nice with a rake of Hornby MGRs ! All the ones I've tried so far seem determined to rip the first hopper off the rails every time the train starts round a 4th radius curve !!  It is definitely a coupling thing

It's the coupling cams that sometimes get stuck and don't spring back when coming back off the curve.

 

Happens with other Hornby diesels including 31s 50s and 60s.

 

The subject has been covered before in other threads.

 

To cure this, use a DRY lubricant applied between the metal plate and the v shaped sprung coupling cam.  I've found that Labelle PTFE dry powder lubricant works best; others have suggested graphite pencil, but I've not tried that.  I only ever treated my locos once with the powder some years ago, and never had problems since.

 

I made a short video about it recently. 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Suzie said:

Close coupling mechanisms have to be used with rigid couplers or they are prone to move to the side in the 'wide' position when pulling a heavy load. If they pull to the wrong side before a corner they will derail. I don't understand why most stock that comes with close couplers only has tension lock couplers in the box, Bachmann are better in this regard supplying solid coupler bars fortunately.

Fully understand that Suzie, thats why my post was about the first wagon derailing, where it doesn't have a ccm fitted, as you can't use a rigid coupling with those wagons.

 

Mine and Vivian's above solution is to use a graphite lubricant to free up the motion of the cam on the loco to stop it sticking in the wide position

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.