NER Bevel Drive Locomotive

[wasabi]

The North Eastern Railway (UK) built this loco in about 1920 and it performed a few test runs before being stored, and then scrapped in 1923.  It has a page and a half  in 'The Electric Locomotives of the North Eastern Railway' by Ken Hoole (Oakwood) but the copy I have was published in 1988 and I wonder if any more information has emerged since then?  The Oakwood book has a side drawing but is anything extant showing the ends?

 

Thanks 

[Michael Edge]

As far as I know nobody has ever turned up a photograph of this (mythical?) loco, the existence of drawings proves nothing.

[wasabi]

Hoole says that he had a picture of the interior and met someone at a talk in 1975 who had worked on it at Darlington and been out with it on at least one trial run.  He does imply that he would otherwise have doubted that it existed.  My feeling is that he knew a lot more about the NER than I ever will and I see no reason to doubt that it did exist, but perhaps not exactly as shown in the drawing in his book.

[Michael Edge]

That's a bit too vague and anecdotal for me, not exactly evidence and Mr.Hoole isn't around to confirm it. It's bit hard to believe that the NER didn't bother to photograph it and memories from old railwaymen often fall down on how locomotives were described - and this is a memory of a memory from 45 years ago. What's happened to this photo alleged to be of the interior anyway?

[Johann Marsbar]

41 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

That's a bit too vague and anecdotal for me, not exactly evidence and Mr.Hoole isn't around to confirm it. It's bit hard to believe that the NER didn't bother to photograph it and memories from old railwaymen often fall down on how locomotives were described - and this is a memory of a memory from 45 years ago. What's happened to this photo alleged to be of the interior anyway?

 

Presumably it is within Ken Hooles archive, wherever that has been deposited. The book states he discovered it at the "Stooperdale offices in the 1950's" and goes on to describe what it depicted.

It quotes another publication stating that it was tried out between Jesmond & Gosforth on the 3rd rail system. The drawings of the "loco" are deposited in the NRM..

[Nearholmer]

Anyone able to give a technical précis of what it is purported to have consisted of, design-wise? Motor(s), control arrangement, drive configuration etc.

 

That will almost certainly allow a view to be formed as to its likelihood, of unlikelihood. It might even allow parallels to be drawn with overseas practice.

 

Kevin

[Johann Marsbar]

47 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Anyone able to give a technical précis of what it is purported to have consisted of, design-wise? Motor(s), control arrangement, drive configuration etc.

 

 

 

Hoole states it to be built on the tender frame of a J class 4-2-2, producing a 6 wheel loco with a vertically mounted EE motor driving the centre axle by bevel gearing. Current collection was made by 3rd rail collector shoes. Various resistance banks were located adjacent to the motor.

The drawings are dated 1920 and the "loco" is actually officially recorded as being broken up in November 1923. Bevel drive locos were certainly constructed for use in Austria at that time.

 

If it was purely experimental, the chances are that photos and any documentation were duly thrown out by the LNER after Grouping, as, being a NER project, it would not be of any interest to their operation. Perhaps the elusive photo of the chassis was a lucky survivor?

I'm aware of photos and plans from major engineering firms and other bodies local to me (particularly R&R after Cap'n Bob got his hands on the place) that have been dumped in the skip without any thought in the past 40 or so years, so it certainly does happen!

[Nearholmer]

Yes, the configuration with a vertical motor and bevel drive to either an axle or a jack-shaft was used fairly widely - I'm fairly sure the Ganz-Peebles locos built for the PB&SSR were like that, so an example in Britain at the right date to provide inspiration, if that inspiration didn't come direct from mainland Europe. Slightly unusual to go for a big single motor for a low voltage DC loco though - I wonder if the motor design might have been inspired by something like a colliery winding motor.

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Johann Marsbar said:

the chances are that photos and any documentation were duly thrown out by the LNER after Grouping, as, being a NER project, it would not be of any interest to their operation.

 

A non sequitur. Why should any project of the major constituent of the LNE group not continue to be of interest, given that a large proportion of both senior staff and directors came from that constituent?

[Wickham Green too]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

....... Slightly unusual to go for a big single motor for a low voltage DC loco though .........

 

c'mon - I bet you've had tender drives like that on you layout at one time or another .....

[The Johnster]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A non sequitur. Why should any project of the major constituent of the LNE group not continue to be of interest, given that a large proportion of both senior staff and directors came from that constituent?

And the LNER was the most active of the Big 4 in terms of preservation of stock and material, the core of the current NRM being in the old terminus train shed at York.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

And the LNER was the most active of the Big 4 in terms of preservation of stock and material, the core of the current NRM being in the old terminus train shed at York.

 

... and in a more general sense, in that the wealth of the North Eastern having been dissipated by the financial burden of the more impoverished constituents, the LNER couldn't afford to renew much of what it inherited.

[Michael Edge]

There's no suggestion of what the NER would have wanted this for - they already had two perfectly good shunting locos (ES1), only one of which was used at any one time. This looks very much like a backward step to me and the NER was a very forward looking railway.

[Nearholmer]

Unless it was not a whole loco, but a test-bed for one bogie. There was a vogue at the time for one whopping traction motor on each bogie (usually with the shaft horizontal and transverse), with the driving cabs and control compartment slung between the bogies - a crocodile.
 

Three-part locos, where the two bogies were directly coupled and carried all the tractive and braking forces, and the body just came along for the ride, were used too - the later LNER bo-bo were like that.

 

And, even some based on the very early US concept of two four-wheeled locos permanently coupled.

 

Even the PB&SSR locos were designed to operate in tandem.

 

As a power unit for A main-line loco using any of the above Configurations,  I can see it being a worthwhile experiment.

 

Thr is due at this date was that axle-hung, nose suspended traction motors that fitted between the backs of the wheels were still quite low-rated, which limited the horsepower of a loco configured using that ‘tramway’ technology to maybe 150hp to 200hp/axle, whereas all the other strange to our eyes configurations allowed for bigger, higher-rated motors.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Michael Edge]

Have a look at No.13 to see what the NER had in mind for express locos, three huge frame mounted motors and quill drive to the wheels.

[Nearholmer]

What was the batting order?

 

I’m speculating that this vertical motor thing was either an abortive essay before No.13, or an abortive essay for a succeeding design.

[2mm Andy]

 

On 19/10/2020 at 13:49, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Presumably it is within Ken Hooles archive, wherever that has been deposited. The book states he discovered it at the "Stooperdale offices in the 1950's" and goes on to describe what it depicted.

It quotes another publication stating that it was tried out between Jesmond & Gosforth on the 3rd rail system. The drawings of the "loco" are deposited in the NRM..

 

Ken Hoole's archives are in the 'Ken Hoole Study Centre', part of the Head of Steam museum at Darlington. Unfortunately the study centre is closed to visitors at the moment, but they can take phone/email enquiries.

 

https://www.head-of-steam.co.uk/our-collections/ken-hoole-study-centre/

 

There is a catalogue here;

 

https://www.darlington.gov.uk/media/2784/kenhoolecatalogue.pdf

 

An in this there are a couple of albums of photos of electric locos (ref. KH1739 & KH1808).

 

Andy

 

[Octavius1862]

Hello,

I apologise for reviving a three year old topic that I'm sure you've all long since moved past, but in the North Eastern Railway Association archives there is a document titled "Diagram of Bevel Drive Vehicle", catalogue ID KT01395-24, which is an overall dimensions plan for this particular locomotive. Its signed in the bottom right-hand corner as being from the Locomotive Department of Darlington, August 3rd of 1921, so still under the NER. The scale is a 1/4 inch to 1ft. A stamped-on roundel gives the impression of the plan having been archived on the 8th of April 1952, the remaining writing saying "The railway execu...Darlington". In the top left corner it says "DG.N°9834".

 

A rough description of the locomotive from the drawing:

A short 0-6-0 frame with buffers mounted on both ends, around 24ft in length with doors, windows and access hatches identical to those found on the NER's EE1. The door is located to one end of the body, with a single window on the side in the middle and two access hatches to the back. It has an arc roof with railings at either end, presumably for adjacent-line wagon hauling. Electrical shoes are mounted between the wheels, with two per side. Its side is marked with "NE.R" in large lettering , and under the access hatches, its marked with "Chief Mech Engrs Dept". Total weight is a little over 31 tons.

 

Due to the placement of access hatches, I'm inclined to believe that the engine could only be operated from one end, that being what is presumably the forward end.  With the door where it is at the end with a single window in the middle and the rest of the side consumed by hatches, given the size it was probably 90% electric motor inside with a small space for maintenance purposes.

 

I have only not sent the image as I lack the permission to send it.

 

Thank you.

[Nearholmer]

Could you knock up a sketch?

 

One thing I don’t understand from all of the foregoing is how the axles were connected; there’s no mention in any post of coupling rods, and roller chains would have been a bit agricultural for a main-line company design office. If they weren’t coupled, it wouldn’t have been able to pull very much.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Octavius1862]

I'll get on with making a sketch of the plans now.

 

As far as goes with the method of drive, the plan does little to explain this. I assume however, from the name "Bevel drive" that the axels were perhaps directly driven by a gear coming off of the motor. If we assume a gear was sat around the axel and a bevelled gear was directly feeding off the motor, it could transfer power in a way that would turn the wheels, but that's purely guesswork on my part. My main reason for thinking this is that the drawing clearly shows that aside from the splashers on the tender sides, this vehicle had little to no underframe.  

[Octavius1862]

Having received permission from the owner, here is the original drawing. 

[Johann Marsbar]

7 hours ago, Octavius1862 said:

Having received permission from the owner, here is the original drawing. 

 

That drawing is the same one that is published in the Oakwood Press (Locomotion Papers 167) book on "The Electric Locomotives of the North Eastern Railway" and accompanies a short piece about it (Chapter 4 in the book) and the origin of the tender it was constructed on.   It was officially cut up on 29.11.23 according to the records

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

That drawing is the same one that is published in the Oakwood Press (Locomotion Papers 167) book on "The Electric Locomotives of the North Eastern Railway" and accompanies a short piece about it (Chapter 4 in the book) and the origin of the tender it was constructed on.   It was officially cut up on 29.11.23 according to the records

 

So presumably therein Ken Hoole gives some account of its history as well as technical details, answering the OP's questions?

[Johann Marsbar]

29 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So presumably therein Ken Hoole gives some account of its history as well as technical details, answering the OP's questions?

 

That's certainly the only publication that I've ever seen it mentioned, so presumably the only details known about it are recorded there.   It didn't even warrant a mention in the earlier "Locomotion Papers No.15 - The North Eastern Electrics" which I have a 1961 published copy of - though that was mainly concerned with the Tyneside electric units, the locos being dealt with in 6.5 pages.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

That's certainly the only publication that I've ever seen it mentioned, 

 

Apologies. Re-reading the topic from the beginning, that is made clear!

 

Sounds like a project for someone living within easy distance of Darlington once Head of Steam reopens. Ibsee the links posted by @2mm Andy in October 2020 are now dead.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Compound2632