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Removing and Replacing A Point


PAL
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I need to replace a Peco Electrofrog point (00 gauge, medium radius, with PL10 motor);  the trouble is, there are other Electrofrog points joined to  three exits, all face to face with them, and I can't think of a way of  inserting the new point without tearing out the other three - a prospect I don't want even to think about. The problem is, now I've taken the old one out there isn't enough wiggle room length-wise to slide in the rail joiners - 4 insulated, 2 metal -   and if you're familiar with Pecos you'll know that you can only push joiners on to them for a certain way. Oh, and the whole setup is ballasted as well, tho it's soft stuff. I'm completely stumped but I'll bet there are  members out there with more experience than me who've met this kind of problem and I'd greatly appreciate their advice.

Edited by PAL
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Instead of using insulated joiners try a slip if Microstrip or 10 thou Plastikard superglued into place. When set, shape and sand to profile. For live joints, try cutting the Peco joiner in half and when slid into place solder to at least one side.

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Not quite the same issue, but when inserting short lengths of track over baseboard joints, I trimmed off the chairs sufficiently so that rail joiners could slide right back to not protrude beyond the end of the rail; dropped the track in place, then with fine pliers, slid the rail joiners to link to the track either side. Could you try similar, maybe cutting through the existing rail joiners to release the point in question? Trim the chairs on the new point. Obviously not quite so simple with Insulating joiners, where I guess you’d need to insert a small piece of plastic to give the break.

May not answer all your challenges but could be worth pondering.

Edited by ITG
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7 hours ago, doilum said:

Instead of using insulated joiners try a slip if Microstrip or 10 thou Plastikard superglued into place. When set, shape and sand to profile. For live joints, try cutting the Peco joiner in half and when slid into place solder to at least one side.

Instead of isulated rail joiners, just leave a gap.  At the toe end (and any other live joints) a piece of wire soldered to the outside of each rail instead of trying to fit rail joiners is effective.  It is of course crucial to ensure correct alignment of the rails first.

 

Harold.

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21 hours ago, HLT 0109 said:

Instead of isulated rail joiners, just leave a gap.  At the toe end (and any other live joints) a piece of wire soldered to the outside of each rail instead of trying to fit rail joiners is effective.  It is of course crucial to ensure correct alignment of the rails first.

 

Harold.

Gaps are fine until we have a warm summer!! Once closed, they can provide hours of that entertaining game of "hunt that short". For those with DCC.............?..

Don't ask how I acquired this wisdom.

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3 hours ago, doilum said:

Gaps are fine until we have a warm summer!! Once closed, they can provide hours of that entertaining game of "hunt that short". For those with DCC.............?..

Don't ask how I acquired this wisdom.

There is not going to be much expansion over the length of a single point - a gap of 1mm should be OK - especially if there is 1mm at both ends.  The soldered wire to carry power across the gap at the toe end can be flexible.

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My grateful thanks to all who chipped in.  It's one of those problems, isn't it? The solution's obvious, really -  but only after someone's taken the trouble to spell it out to you;  the joiners serve two separable  functions - dealing with the current and aligning the tracks. The alignment can be left just to  track pins, but as Harold emphasises, it has to be done ultra-precisely, and perhaps using a few extra to make sure. And the current can be carried by soldered wires or cut off by a bit of plasticard or just leaving a gap.  

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15 hours ago, HLT 0109 said:

There is not going to be much expansion over the length of a single point

 

The tracks on either side of the point will also be subject to temperature-related expansion and contraction, so you have to take them in to account as well.

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On 20/10/2020 at 06:21, HLT 0109 said:

It is of course crucial to ensure correct alignment of the rails first.

This is so true.  I have tried to join rails with a soldered piece of wire.  Works electrically, but very hard to align vertically & horizontally while soldering and it has to be accurate in 4 places.

 

On 19/10/2020 at 22:33, doilum said:

For live joints, try cutting the Peco joiner in half and when slid into place solder to at least one side.

And this works to provide the alignment.  Half a rail joiner will slide into the new track completely, then slide back over the gap after the new track is put in place.

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I have shortened metal rail joiners to around half their usual length and trimmed insulated joiners by removing the tapered lead in part.  That way its possible to slide the metal joiners up the rails so they don't protrude beyond the rail ends and wangle the insulated joiners onto the point ails as the point is slid in and downwards until the metal joiner end can drop into place.  That supposes the point is from the same batch as they do vary.  What doesn't work is not having an insulated joiner, the joints close and if you have a sliver of something the rail ends push each other sideways or upwards, either/ both cause lousy running.  If you must leave gaps then leave gaps in the live rails and use droppers instead of fish plates for power DCC style.  Where I have had to go with with gaps a long brass screw to solder each rail end to seems the best solution, screwed deep into the baseboard or even a block below it. 

I know there are charts for expansion but my rails don't seem to obey them from the huge rail gaps I get in winter and the butted up rails of high summer I find it's best to lay track when its unbearably hot and rails are at full stretch, that way contraction increases the rail gaps bit like the 12"/ft types.

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3 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

I have shortened metal rail joiners to around half their usual length and trimmed insulated joiners by removing the tapered lead in part.  That way its possible to slide the metal joiners up the rails so they don't protrude beyond the rail ends and wangle the insulated joiners onto the point ails as the point is slid in and downwards until the metal joiner end can drop into place.  That supposes the point is from the same batch as they do vary.  What doesn't work is not having an insulated joiner, the joints close and if you have a sliver of something the rail ends push each other sideways or upwards, either/ both cause lousy running.  If you must leave gaps then leave gaps in the live rails and use droppers instead of fish plates for power DCC style.  Where I have had to go with with gaps a long brass screw to solder each rail end to seems the best solution, screwed deep into the baseboard or even a block below it. 

I know there are charts for expansion but my rails don't seem to obey them from the huge rail gaps I get in winter and the butted up rails of high summer I find it's best to lay track when its unbearably hot and rails are at full stretch, that way contraction increases the rail gaps bit like the 12"/ft types.

My SM32 roundy roundy needs all the rails moving with pliers and a couple of 8mm sections of rail inserting to fill the winter gaps. Running sessions are always preceded by a track inspection to identify wayward fishplates. OK it is in a greenhouse and some of the movement may be soil related but most is due to expansion/ contraction of nickel silver rail.

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9 hours ago, BernieL said:

This is so true.  I have tried to join rails with a soldered piece of wire.  Works electrically, but very hard to align vertically & horizontally while soldering and it has to be accurate in 4 places.

I agree - if it is done before ballasting. It shouldn't be too difficult to align the inserted point with the existing track and fix it permanently in place before soldering the connecting wire.  Alignment can be checked by pushing rolling stock across the joins and adjustment made then if necessary.  However, best to align with rail joiners if practicable.   Sometimes more damage can be caused by trying to insert a reluctant rail joiner or even sliding one along.  If droppers are attached to the replacement point before insertion, then a wire soldered across the joints is unnecessary.

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Latest contributions much appreciated. My layout is small but it's all points, so I need all the advice I can get. The way forward appears to be:  nickel silver joiners sawn-off enough to slide fully on to one rail-end or the other then pushed across the join, which takes care of the alignment problem.   Cut off one side of the insulation joiners just short of the pip in the middle and try to finaigle them on at the same time - failing that, plasticard in the gaps. Then solder  - solid across the track ends or use droppers.  The track pins go in last. I assume that as my layout resides in a centrally heated house it won't be subject to the temperature problems mentioned by David and Doilum.

 

A sudden thought: what's the best way - no blood, no split fingernails, no swearing - to trim a Peco rail-joiner to size? Thin cutting disc? Slow speed or high?

 

Thanks again to all contributors.

 

Edited by PAL
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43 minutes ago, PAL said:

Latest contributions much appreciated. My layout is small but it's all points, so I need all the advice I can get. The way forward appears to be:  nickel silver joiners sawn-off enough to slide fully on to one rail-end or the other then pushed across the join, which takes care of the alignment problem.   Cut off one side of the insulation joiners just short of the pip in the middle and try to finaigle them on at the same time - failing that, plasticard in the gaps. Then solder  - solid across the track ends or use droppers.  The track pins go in last. I assume that as my layout resides in a centrally heated house it won't be subject to the temperature problems mentioned by David and Doilum.

 

A sudden thought: what's the best way - no blood, no split fingernails, no swearing - to trim a Peco rail-joiner to size? Thin cutting disc? Slow speed or high?

 

Thanks again to all contributors.

 

A piercing saw whilst pinning the joiner down with an old screwdriver. A small offcut of timber helps. 

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