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Examples of Narrow Gauge/Tram interfaces?


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Afternoon all,

 

I’ve planned for some time to build a small oo9 table top layout but with a tram interface (likely motorising a corgi offering). My thoughts were that the tram would run to a rural ‘end of the line’ destination as a means to transporting workers to the narrow gauge railway. 
 

My question is, are there any examples where this actually happened? To be clear I’m not talking about narrow gauge tramways I’m talking about historic trams that were once a part of most cities running to a tram stop or interchange linked to a narrow gauge railway. 

 

 Being from Birmingham the tram stop at the Lickey Hills has so far provided some inspiration with fanciful thoughts of a fictitious NG railway moving aggregates from the hills. 

 

Greg 
 

 

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31 minutes ago, RateTheFreight said:

Afternoon all,

 

I’ve planned for some time to build a small oo9 table top layout but with a tram interface (likely motorising a corgi offering). My thoughts were that the tram would run to a rural ‘end of the line’ destination as a means to transporting workers to the narrow gauge railway. 
 

My question is, are there any examples where this actually happened? To be clear I’m not talking about narrow gauge tramways I’m talking about historic trams that were once a part of most cities running to a tram stop or interchange linked to a narrow gauge railway. 

 

 Being from Birmingham the tram stop at the Lickey Hills has so far provided some inspiration with fanciful thoughts of a fictitious NG railway moving aggregates from the hills. 

 

Greg 
 

 

Images of the Camborne and Redruth Tramways might be worth a look? See especially the mineral traffic.

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4 hours ago, RateTheFreight said:

 My thoughts were that the tram would run to a rural ‘end of the line’ destination as a means to transporting workers to the narrow gauge railway. 

 

 

 

 

I like the sound of that! Trams and narrow gauge, great combination.

 

I remember seeing the old tram tracks still in the cobbles, at the Lickey end at the former Rednal terminus, when I was a student in Brum in the late eighties.

 

Anyhow, street trams and NG steam met in Ireland, eg in Derry and Cork, but perhaps not quite fitting with what you have in mind?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_Electric_Tramways_and_Lighting_Company#Routes

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Isle of Mann sort of fits the bill although they are a few hundred yards apart the trams feed onto the steam railway. 
Most narrow gauge tended to be in backwaters generally not big enough to support a tramway system but plenty joined to branches that could be feasibly replaced with a tram. 

Edited by PaulRhB
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Ramsey on the Isle of Man is pretty close 

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/r/ramsey/index.shtml

 

but a bit of a gap.

 

There must be cases of electric tramways in old industrial areas of South Wales or Northern England that came in close proximity with industrial narrow gauge railways which carried workers eg for a mine or reservoir railway, but not public service for passengers?

 

It's got me intrigued and looking through my books to see if I can come up with an example.

 

All the best,

 

Keith

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I did wonder whether you'd mention Nordhausen, Paul?

Well it’s stretching it a bit for the UK which is what I took the first post to be focused on ;) lots around the world though :)

 

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Hi, depending on how much you are looking for an accurate prototype and era, versus inspiration to justify some 'reduced distances' ... I can't help with an actual interchange. 

But if you are up for inspiration rather than accuracy, and ignoring the real distance and a steep hill between the tram terminus and the narrow gauge tramway - try "Bathford" village near Bath.  Its a small village, one of many around the edge of Bath.  The old Bath tram ran through Batheaston village and then onto the terminus in Bathford village, just by the mainline railway overbridge which went over the road.  The scene would have been where the big roundabout is now on the main road from Chippenham to Bath, just before it becomes dual carriage way-byepass.  So there's your tram terminus, right next to the mainline bridge over the road.  Try googling images for Bathford tramway.  An example of the scene is at: https://www.bathintime.co.uk/catalog/product/view/id/32582

In the same village, some several hundred yards as the crow flies but up a steep hill at the top of the village, was a stone wharf.  This was used for quarrying Bath stone from the surrounding hills.  The wharf was on a  road/track up the hill.  I believe there was a narrow gauge tramway from the wharf to further down the hill toward the main railway line, but not actually heading toward the area of the tram terminus.  So you need to use some artistic licence, but these components did exist within a distance of some several hundred yards,  An example of the stone wharf, but without imagery of the narrow gauge tramway can be found here but just google Bathford stone wharf, or something like that...  http://www.choghole.co.uk/HISTORY.htm  check out the pic at the top.  I don't know if there was actually a narrow gauge to main line interchange in this spot.  

If you need some more artistic license for how to model the tramway, then over the hill in Corsham there was narrow gauge stone quarrying activity, there are many images in google of 'Corsham stone wharf' and narrow gauge tramways, etc.  Some (I think in the Getty Images site which can be found from some google images, include the locos and rolling stock oft he stone-carrying tramways

Hope that helps!  I'm not an expert on these, but if I was looking for this combo that's where I'd pick.  Plus the scenery is lovely and the Bath stone is a great colour for a model railway layout. 

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Porta Maggiore in Rome has a tram "roundabout" with a narrow gauge line across the middle, fed by overhead lines which appear to switch to a different voltage depending which vehicle is about to cross.  Also across the middle at right angles to the narrow gauge is a Roman aqueduct, with the main lines out of Termini passing over a bridge nearby.  

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Don't forget that many contractors used quite extensive NG railways for all sorts of work. So I would guess that even in London such interfaces could be found. Somewhat out of the tram period there was a NG railway on London Bridge when it was rebuilt in the 1970's.

 

Also there were the Waterworks railways in London so another possibility.

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You might want to look at the Medway Towns.


The Chatham & District Light Railways (= electric street trams Running on 3’ 6”) certainly crossed the route of military narrow gauge (1’ 6”), but what I’m not certain of is whether both were in service at the same time, possibly they were in the very early days of the trams.

 

The military NG was used to build and then service the several forts that were intended to protect the naval dockyard from attack from the landward side and had some possibly unique bogie passenger carriages for the convicts who formed the construction labour gangs - rather like zoo cages on wheels.

 

The Thames Estuary and SE coast had a lot of small NG railways and several towns had street tramways, so even if this one doesn’t appeal, there must be others to discover. What about the gates of Woolwich Arsenal? Did that have a tramway outside? It certainly had a passenger carrying NG railway inside.

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

You might want to look at the Medway Towns.


The Chatham & District Light Railways (= electric street trams Running on 3’ 6”) certainly crossed the route of military narrow gauge (1’ 6”), but what I’m not certain of is whether both were in service at the same time, possibly they were in the very early days of the trams.

 

The military NG was used to build and then service the several forts that were intended to protect the naval dockyard from attack from the landward side and had some possibly unique bogie passenger carriages for the convicts who formed the construction labour gangs - rather like zoo cages on wheels.

 

The Thames Estuary and SE coast had a lot of small NG railways and several towns had street tramways, so even if this one doesn’t appeal, there must be others to discover. What about the gates of Woolwich Arsenal? Did that have a tramway outside? It certainly had a passenger carrying NG railway inside.

 

 

 

 

I've actually got a 1906 copy of the C&DLR Rules and Regulations and have just had a quick look to see if anything is mentioned regarding crossing the narrow gauge - which it isn't.

Would have thought they would have warranted a mention if they did cross - either a restricted speed or stop before proceeding instruction.

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13 hours ago, tractionman said:

 

Anyhow, street trams and NG steam met in Ireland, eg in Derry and Cork, but perhaps not quite fitting with what you have in mind?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_Electric_Tramways_and_Lighting_Company#Routes

 

 

 

The gauge of the tramway was 900 mm (2 ft 11 7⁄16 in) gauge, selected to allow trains from the 3 ft (914 mm) narrow gauge Cork and Muskerry Light Railway and the Cork, Blackrock and Passage Railway to connect using the tram lines.

 

That's most interesting; I don't suppose such through running actually occurred regularly, but was it physically possible? Did the connections exist?

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Marsbar

 

They didn’t cross on the level, I think the NG route went under the streets, most of which were built later, as it climbed-up from the dockyard area to the heights.

 

K

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Leeds.....

Leeds Fireclay Company at Wortley had a couple of horse and cable worked narrow gauge lines that crossed over Leeds City Transport electric tram lines, think 3ft 6in gauge.

 

I think there was also an agreement for LCT to transport coal and clay to Wortley using tippler cars of which they had a few... Flatbed tram fitted with two v tipplers.

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Indeed. I hit exactly that issue when I bought one to convert to electric propulsion to run with 00 trains - it looked too big, so I measured it and ............. cancelled that project.

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I had wondered about the size of the tram and whether it was too big. In the pic below lined up against a Hornby Peckett and B’man oo9 loco it doesn’t look to bad but I’ve got no point of reference as to whether it looks out of scale so welcome thoughts. The tram is a Corgi Dick Kerr Brum tram. 
 

The other potential would be to purchase one of the motorised HOe continental offerings on eBay in the style of the Lisbon tram and try and anglicise it. 
 

thanks for all the suggestions so far, much to look into. 
 


 
EDIT; when compared to my OO Rapido Brum bus the tram does look too big? 

 

5544D930-031D-4A77-AB6C-9D266A359DD8.jpeg

BB3B98FB-B2D5-4FBD-941E-07083E4545FA.jpeg

Edited by RateTheFreight
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If you want a Birmingham car, then the old 1/72 Keil Kraft kit might be an option, normally go for under a tenner on ebay whilst not 4mm, not far off, easily motorised too.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=keil+kraft+tram&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=HD74AR&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=3&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=200&LH_Complete=1&_fosrp=1

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9 hours ago, MyRule1 said:

Don't forget that many contractors used quite extensive NG railways for all sorts of work. So I would guess that even in London such interfaces could be found. Somewhat out of the tram period there was a NG railway on London Bridge when it was rebuilt in the 1970's.

 

Also there were the Waterworks railways in London so another possibility.

 

Trams used to pass Kew Bridge pumping station (now London Museum of Water and Steam), which in its museum guise, has a NG railway.

 

However as far as I know there wasn't a NG railway there when the trams were running!

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On 22/10/2020 at 19:08, tractionman said:

 

I like the sound of that! Trams and narrow gauge, great combination.

 

I remember seeing the old tram tracks still in the cobbles, at the Lickey end at the former Rednal terminus, when I was a student in Brum in the late eighties.

 

Anyhow, street trams and NG steam met in Ireland, eg in Derry and Cork, but perhaps not quite fitting with what you have in mind?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_Electric_Tramways_and_Lighting_Company#Routes

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

The route out of Cork with narrow gauge trains and trams running down the road would make a fantastic model. There's some footage about 1:40 into this film: https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-ride-from-blarney-to-cork-on-cork-muskerry-light-railway-1902-1902-online

 

 

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I keep wondering about the Crumbles at Eastbourne, where there was a 2ft gauge shingle-extraction line and a 2ft gauge electric tramway. I remember riding on the latter, but I have no idea whether it actually contacted the industrial line although both were present in the early 1960s.

 

 

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