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Examples of Narrow Gauge/Tram interfaces?


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Trams and narrow gauge? The city of Le Mans used to have a unique arrangement. Radiating from the city was a network of metre-gauge steam tram lines, reaching many km into the countryside. I live about 50 km to the north east, and one line ran within a couple of hundred metres of my house, en route Mamers. 

 

But there was also an electric tram - I can't recall the gauge - system in the city itself. Inevitably at one point these two crossed each other - and did so in the middle of the River Sarthe, where there was a bridge in the shape of an X. This was destroyed in August 1944 by the retreating German army, as the Allies approached. 

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If you want to use Corgi trams and don't mind scratchbuilding everything else, it wouldn't be ridiculous to adopt S scale (3/16" to the foot) overall. Choose trams with 3'6" gauge prototypes and you can use 16.5 mm mechanisms. The scale makes 9 mm gauge a reasonable approximation of 2' so mechs are easy to find there as well. 

 

These days, building in a minority scale isn't that outlandish. In this case, the difficult bits (the trams themselves, mechanisms, track etc.) are all commercially available. Buildings would be pretty straightforward to produce by resizing download able kits. Figures and road vehicles may be slightly more difficult but by no means impossible. Looking outside the model railway world may offer some answers. Overall, I'd say it was eminently doable. 

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On 23/10/2020 at 07:57, Nearholmer said:

You might want to look at the Medway Towns.


The Chatham & District Light Railways (= electric street trams Running on 3’ 6”) certainly crossed the route of military narrow gauge (1’ 6”), but what I’m not certain of is whether both were in service at the same time, possibly they were in the very early days of the trams.

 

The military NG was used to build and then service the several forts that were intended to protect the naval dockyard from attack from the landward side and had some possibly unique bogie passenger carriages for the convicts who formed the construction labour gangs - rather like zoo cages on wheels.

 

The Thames Estuary and SE coast had a lot of small NG railways and several towns had street tramways, so even if this one doesn’t appeal, there must be others to discover. What about the gates of Woolwich Arsenal? Did that have a tramway outside? It certainly had a passenger carrying NG railway inside.

 

 

 

 

In roughly the same geographical area, I think there was a 4ft gauge industrial line in Erith that crossed standard gauge tram tracks at a level crossing. Just to add to the fun, it did this in parallel with a neighbouring standard gauge industrial line.

 

 I think for the purposes of the original question, you need to consider whether the electric tramway can also be narrow gauge. A narrow gauge electric town tramway with a steam/diesel-hauled rural extension might be nice.

Edited by 009 micro modeller
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On further investigation into the Cork & Muskerry, I think this must come closest in the British Isles to satisfying the OP's requirements. It seems that the Light Railway and the city trams did actually share tracks as seen here: https://www.corkindependent.com/weekly/ourcityourtown/articles/2017/02/16/4135037-corkmuskerry-tram-used-for-tourism-and-agriculture/

 

One of the two scenes that alternate at the top of the page has the caption "Steam and electric trams on Western Road, Cork"

Edited by Andy Kirkham
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20 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Erith? Parish’s Loam Quarry?

 

Yeah, that’s the one I was thinking of. I can’t find a picture of the street with trams, standard and narrow gauge (being 4ft gauge it may not be quite what @RateTheFreight is after but never mind). It seems that the tramway closed first, then the 4ft gauge and finally the standard gauge railway, but I can only seem to find photos of the latter two phases (i.e. one or both railways but no tram tracks).

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Having had a quick look at some maps and knowing the area well, it occurs to me that part of the 3’ 6” gauge York Corporation Tramways must have passed close to the 1’ 6” gauge horse drawn line at Imphal Barracks, although perhaps not within sight of it.

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I don't think it passed any ng lines, but would the atmosphere of the Kinver Light Railway be of any inspiration? Proper ng electric trams running out into the countryside.

 

Leeds Tramways (standard gauge) had routes that interracted with industrial standard gauge, such as gasworks, and the double-tracked mainline tram route out to Middleton ran close to the industrial areas like the NCB pit. Don't know if there was any ng thereabouts, I'll have a look :)

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The Kinver LR was initially laid with railway-style track, to permit through-working of goods, but was soon re-laid with tram rail, because the through traffic turned-out to be day-trippers rather than goods.

Edited by Nearholmer
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4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The Kinver LR was initially laid with railway-style track, to permit through-working of goods from main lines

 

From main lines? I thought the Kinver Light Railway was 3’ 6” gauge. Unless there were other lines of that gauge nearby.

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44 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

You’re right - that makes no sense does it? I’ve clearly got hold of the wrong end of a stick somewhere ...... I’d better find the book and re-read it!

 

It sounds really interesting, I’m just trying to work out if there were any related industrial 3’ 6” lines or anything but I suspect that isn’t it. I don’t think dual gauge was used though in this case.

 

Didn’t Glasgow’s trams use a slightly wider gauge than standard, with the railway wagons running in the tram rails’ grooves on their flanges?

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2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

It sounds really interesting, I’m just trying to work out if there were any related industrial 3’ 6” lines or anything but I suspect that isn’t it. I don’t think dual gauge was used though in this case.

 

Didn’t Glasgow’s trams use a slightly wider gauge than standard, with the railway wagons running in the tram rails’ grooves on their flanges?

Glasgow was 4 ft 7 3/4 to allow std gauge wagons to run on their flanges in the groove.

Huddersfield also adopted the same gauge with a view to moving coal.

Edited by Red Devil
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12 minutes ago, Red Devil said:

Glasgow was 4 ft 7 3/4 to allow std gauge wagons to run on their flanges in the groove.

Huddersfield also adopted the same gauge with a view to moving coal.

 

Ah yes, sorry, it was actually as you say slightly narrower than standard gauge.

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12 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

From main lines? I thought the Kinver Light Railway was 3’ 6” gauge. Unless there were other lines of that gauge nearby.

 

Wasn't it to allow through tramway traffic from Dudley and Brum?

 

Does remind me that the Black Country Living Museum has ng tram and 2ft gauge colliery track running side by side though.

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1 hour ago, Ben B said:

Wasn't it to allow through tramway traffic from Dudley and Brum?

 

Yes it was - however we were discussing through freight traffic. It wasn’t the only tramway like this which carried through passenger services from nearby town tram systems.

 

1 hour ago, Ben B said:

Does remind me that the Black Country Living Museum has ng tram and 2ft gauge colliery track running side by side though.

 

The East Anglian Transport Museum similarly has a 2ft gauge line and a tramway (again 3’ 6” gauge I think) as well as a 3ft gauge Southwold Railway wagon on static display. I think the OP wanted a non-heritage setting though.

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7 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Yes it was - however we were discussing through freight traffic. It wasn’t the only tramway like this which carried through passenger services from nearby town tram systems.

 

 

The East Anglian Transport Museum similarly has a 2ft gauge line and a tramway (again 3’ 6” gauge I think) as well as a 3ft gauge Southwold Railway wagon on static display. I think the OP wanted a non-heritage setting though.

 

Not sure which museum you are thinking of. Carlton Colville near Lowestoft operates ex London tramcars, and is standard gauge. The museum at Chappell & Wakes Colne has no tramway that I'm aware of, and I can't recall any narrow gauge

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46 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Not sure which museum you are thinking of. Carlton Colville near Lowestoft operates ex London tramcars, and is standard gauge. The museum at Chappell & Wakes Colne has no tramway that I'm aware of, and I can't recall any narrow gauge

 

OK. I think Carlton Colville (which has the 2ft narrow gauge, a relatively new addition using equipment formerly at Duxford) is the one I meant (link also mentions the Southwold wagon): https://www.eatransportmuseum.co.uk/vehicles

 

I had assumed the tramway was 3’ 6” gauge because they apparently have/had a former Lowestoft tram on site but I did suspect I was wrong after seeing photos of the London trams running there.

 

The East Anglian Railway Museum is of course all standard gauge heavy rail (i.e. not trams).

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