Help needed in choosing a DCC controller

[Andy 17]

I'm about to start building a 5 x 2 feet 009 circular layout with DCC. It will only have a maximum of 4 locos but they will have sound.

 

I understand that some DCC controllers are not able to handle all of the 30 functions that will be available.

 

Can anyone suggest a good entry-level DCC controller which will enable me to make use of all of the functions, please?

 

I don't want to control the layout through a computer or phone.

 

Thanks

[Gilbert]

If you enable the option button on an NCE powercab (my weapon of choice)  it can go up to F29 IIRC

Chris

[Andy 17]

Thanks Chris, I’ll investigate that one. 

[johnd]

Which ever one you look at there will be some people who will have negative comments about it. This has been asked and discussed many time before on this forum. At the end of the day its own to you.

If there is a model shop near you that sells DCC all i can say is go and see them and look what they have on display and ask questions. Everybody you ask will have there favourite/recommended controller.

Good luck in your search and now what questions you want to ask before you enter the shops, most controllers now are capable of 29 function control. its just a matter of how you get to the function keys.

[Oldddudders]

Your model railway is costing you a packet, and the DCC system (not controller) you choose will be a chunk of that. It will also be central to every operating session you run - so you need to like the one you buy. They can feel very different, one with another. All-in-one-box; separate command station, booster and throttle; throttles with rotating knobs, or buttons, sliders or touch-screens - and all of these completely DCC-compliant and able to reach F29. 

 

The best systems are probably offered by firms which only make DCC systems. They live or die by their success, while the big train manufacturers have systems that can afford to be a bit less than wonderful without them going broke. European systems tend to be a bit different from US ones, and may sometimes be regarded as more suitable for a UK modeller. I happen to use a US system, but so what?

 

Look online for DCC specialists and look closely at the systems they offer, to compare specs, styles and prices - which can vary enormously. Get a short-list and see if one of those specialists would offer you a demo of one or more. Covid may work against that right now, of course. 

[WIMorrison]

I am wondering which 009 locos will have 30 functions ...

[spamcan61]

18 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

I am wondering which 009 locos will have 30 functions ...

Ones with Sound presumably.

Edited October 22, 2020 by spamcan61

[grriff]

It's probably worthwhile to look at any online manuals. How easy do you find them to understand? How do they instruct you to change the number of a loco on a decoder, which must be done as they come with a default of three? How easy is it to change from controlling one loco to another?

[kev]

I started with the basic Bachmann  one with 10 buttons to see if i liked DCC can be found on the bay very limited in what they  can do but it got me started and once i was happy lots of systems out there i settled on the gaugemaster one in the end not to ever ones taste but suits me

kev 

[Andy 17]

I was looking at the Bachmann E-Z command but it did seem a bit too basic, I will probably go with the NCE Powercab. 

[Locoman58]

Andy,

if you want to go into dcc sound we urgently recommend a system which is able to set all function keys to either momentary or latching.

Most US makes are not able to do this.
As sound projects get more and more sophisticated free f-key setting is mandatory for using all these fine functions.

We recommend european systems e.g. Roco z(small)21.

saluti

Locoman

 

 

[Sir TophamHatt]

Check out the Prodigy Advance 2 by Gaugemaster too.

 

The reason I chose this above the NCE Powercab is that the NCE isn't as powerful (although I understand you can buy a booster?).  I was thinking "for the future".  The only thing that is a little clunky is the F numbers.  But I have seen most are similar - having to click multiple buttons to select the later F numbers.  The only one I have seen that does this with any sort of grace is the ECoS but even that isn't ideal.  I haven't done much research into it though.

 

Search online for threads - put something like "what controller to buy rmweb" or "which DCC controller rmweb" - make sure you put the RMWEB and you're search engine of choice will search this site first.  Much more reliable than the in-built search engine.  Here's some to get you started:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/144981-which-controller-to-buy/

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/124718-which-dcc-system-should-i-use/

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/17593-prodigy-advance-or-advance-2/

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/142280-is-the-gaugemaster-prodigy-squared-still-a-sought-after-dcc-system/

Some good points comparing both systems: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/118773-nce-power-cab-or-prodigy-advance-which-one-to-go-for/

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Sir TophamHatt

[Nigelcliffe]

NCE, Digitrax, Gaugemaster (made by MRC) are all US systems.  These systems have the issue with lack of user-setting of "latching" keys that LocoMan identifies.   It makes a big difference to sound decoder control.  

 

European system makers, which tend to have user control of how keys work, include:  Roco, Uhlenbrock, Piko (rebadged Uhlenbrock and rebadged ESU).   And at higher prices, ESU, Lenz, Zimo, and others.   

 

From the UK, there's the Signatrak ACE system.  Touch screen, control of latching functions, optional handsets. 

 

 

- Nigel 

[johnd]

Yes I would recommend the Signatrack  ACE system, have found it user friendly.

[Dungrange]

 

2 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

The only thing that is a little clunky is the F numbers.  But I have seen most are similar - having to click multiple buttons to select the later F numbers.  The only one I have seen that does this with any sort of grace is the ECoS but even that isn't ideal.  I haven't done much research into it though.

 

I bought the Sig-na-Trak ACE2 (https://www.signatrak.co.uk/products/ace-dcc-controller-accessories/dcs2044-ace-15-48), principally because all Function buttons are accessed from a single touch screen (ie no multiple button pressing to access the higher functions) and the user manual is fairly easy to read.  From driving the locomotive you just select functions and F0 to F29 is displayed on a single screen (and you can drive the locomotive from the Function button screen).  You can also rename each function button to say what it does in that decoder (albeit I think there is a six character limit), but that still gives 'Brake', 'Horn', 'Doors', 'Guard', 'PA', etc rather than F0, F1, etc.

 

One of things that put me off both the Gaugemaster Prodigy an the NCE Powercab was the multiple button presses to get, say, F22 and not knowing whether I wanted F22 of F23 without creating a separate lookup sheet for each decoder.

[Izzy]

34 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

One of things that put me off both the Gaugemaster Prodigy an the NCE Powercab was the multiple button presses to get, say, F22 and not knowing whether I wanted F22 of F23 without creating a separate lookup sheet for each decoder

 

What's probably worse with the prodigy - I don't know if the NCE is the same - is that there is no visual indication of which higher number F's are in use/engaged. Very un-friendly and especially given the awkward way of accessing them in the first place. I am surprised to discover that even JMRI has the Functions in a throttle window in two sets/stages. Has bemused me as I can't see why they can't all be together. But at least there is visual indication of their state, on/off. I've never investigated whether their state can be set to taste, latching/non-latching.

 

The ACE certainly does seem better in this respect, I believe they can ( I often get lost just reading manuals!), if you like/want a fixed control point. I do like my PA wi-fi handset. The freedom it gives. One thing I can't work out is how you control all functions on the ACE plug-in/wired handsets, or whether you can still control the functions on the main panel at the same time. Although this would rather defeat the point of a walkabout handset. No easy answers in reality I suppose.

 

I don't think the newish TCS wi-fi handset is any better in this respect of function access.

 

Izzy

 

 

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

45 minutes ago, Izzy said:

 

..... I am surprised to discover that even JMRI has the Functions in a throttle window in two sets/stages. Has bemused me as I can't see why they can't all be together. But at least there is visual indication of their state, on/off. I've never investigated whether their state can be set to taste, latching/non-latching.

 

 

Latching state, function labels (eg. "horn", "brake squeal"),  and icons on the throttle are configurable on a per-loco basis in JMRI, using the "roster" view to make those settings (where you start programming from).   
The labels and latching behaviour also goes out to throttles on smart-phones.   

There is a JMRI global preference which defaults Fn2 as non-latching,  users setting individual function key behaviours probably want to find this setting and change it so it doesn't over-ride the individual choices.   

 

The throttle panel is configurable, though probably not as easily as it could be. 
Using the Jython Instruments (see the help on the throttle window) it would be possible to add all 28 functions. 
However, there's probably a case if someone really needs it, to ask on the jmriusers group for a developer to offer a user interface option showing all keys (0-28) directly.   
(We're back to JMRI being a huge meccano kit lacking a really good manual, needs knowledge on how to bolt it together ).  

 

 

[grriff]

I use a SPROG with JMRI and certainly prefer it to my neighbour's NCE, which he finds very good. However, Andy in his original post discounted using a computer.

[Andy 17]

18 hours ago, Locoman58 said:

Andy,

if you want to go into dcc sound we urgently recommend a system which is able to set all function keys to either momentary or latching.

Most US makes are not able to do this.
As sound projects get more and more sophisticated free f-key setting is mandatory for using all these fine functions.

We recommend european systems e.g. Roco z(small)21.

saluti

Locoman

 

 

Locoman, can you explain what you mean by momentary or latching, please? I’m new to all of this!

[spamcan61]

13 minutes ago, Andy 17 said:

Locoman, can you explain what you mean by momentary or latching, please? I’m new to all of this!

Momentary means the function is only 'on' when you're pressing the button (ideal for a whistle for example)  latching means one press to turn on, next press turn off, and so on. Could be useful for lighting or a background noise like a compressor.

[Oldddudders]

12 minutes ago, Andy 17 said:

Locoman, can you explain what you mean by momentary or latching, please? I’m new to all of this!

Press most keys and the function - say, lights - comes on and stays on until you press the key again. That is called latching. On most US throttles F2 is designated for whistle or horn, so you only want it to be on for as long as you keep the button depressed. That is, non-latching. Some European sound files use F2 for other functions, so need it to latch. Because the NMRA stopped short of mandating keys for sound systems - very much in their infancy when the NMRA published their recommendations more than 20 years ago - manufacturers do their own thing because they may. 

[RAF96]

On screen indication of active functions is handy. 

[Dungrange]

7 hours ago, Izzy said:

One thing I can't work out is how you control all functions on the ACE plug-in/wired handsets, or whether you can still control the functions on the main panel at the same time. Although this would rather defeat the point of a walkabout handset.

 

The 'Driver' handsets that can be purchased to plug into the Sig-na-trak ACE2 are not intended to be full function handsets.  As far as I know, they only allow access to Functions F0, and F1 to F4.  I don't think you're able access higher functions when you assign a locomotive to the 'Driver' handset: that is the locomotive needs to be under the control of either the main unit or the 'Driver' handset but not both.  Therefore the additional plug in handsets are not ideal if you're looking to control sound chipped locomotives with them but useful enough if you want a second 'controller' to allow someone else to control a non-sound locomotive.  They have a very familiar DC controller feel to them, so easy enough for those not familiar with DCC to be able to drive a train.

 

It's perhaps also worthwhile highlighting that the next software update for the ACE 2 should allow PC control, but I'm not sure when that update is to be released.  The website says 'early autumn' (which is about now), but I don't know if it is imminent or not.  My understanding is that would allow other throttle options, but it may be that it also needs the LYNX LocoNet® and XpressNet interface, which is still 'on hold' according to the website.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Function buttons displayed for the specific loco selected.

Only the functions available on that loco are displayed.

Unused functions are not displayed.

If the number of available functions exceeds the display area, the screen is scrollable, so dragging the function area upwards, allows you to see the others.

Switch to another loco and the functions shown, switch to those for that new loco.

Every function from F0 to F28 can be configured as latching, or non-latching, differently for each individual loco.

 

....and it’s quicker than multiple button pressing.

Plus the 4 buttons on the side of the handset can be assigned to selected functions, if you wish. Therefore a whistle or horn, for example, can be assigned to a button with momentary (non-latching) action, located right under your thumb or fingers.

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 23/10/2020 at 13:54, Dungrange said:

One of things that put me off both the Gaugemaster Prodigy an the NCE Powercab was the multiple button presses to get, say, F22 and not knowing whether I wanted F22 of F23 without creating a separate lookup sheet for each decoder.

Yeah - another downside is not knowing whether it's off or on.
Haven't had too many instances where I need to know but I can see as sound functions get greater and greater, I could do with knowing.