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Original TOPS issue BR vehicle diagram books for wagons


HGR
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37 minutes ago, SED Freightman said:

Yet more vans this evening.

 

Yep, till the mid-'80s the TOPS code VVV just about covered all sorts of anything with doors and a roof that reflected many different by then past traffics which had by then coalesced into what could be described as no better than sundries. Then all of a sudden there was a vast clearout and all the interesting stuff evaporated ... mostly into farmers' fields, other than what picked up departmental prefixes, or internal user numbers.

 

Fruit and Ale to finish, that's two of your five-a-day ... what a result !

 

One thing about cattle vans : The dia. 354 ones were drawn the other way round to all the others so the internal partition was at the left end instead of to the right. I've not been able to find enough detailed underframe photo's to see if the brake gear was the opposite way to the body on these compared to other cattle diagrams ?

 

Thanks.

 

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4 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

The last of the vans - Part 1.  I do not have copies of diagrams VV 035A or VV 036A, although there are a few diagrams in Book 320 (Part 4) that have not been requested (eg. VW 002A) which presumably you already have ?

 

Thanks ever so much for all the scanning you've been doing.

 

In theory the diagrams that I hadn't requested are the ones that survived to revision 4 so I have copies of in my post-'83 books albeit possibly at later issue than the originals you have in your copy, or they are air braked and tucked away in the last part of the weirdly re-organised early book 320 that I have, but you've got me on VW 002A ... it should have been on my list but I missed it, if you have it please ?

 

Revision Letter 1 is what got you from the B.R. (B) series books into the first issue of Book 320. Please can you have a look at the Revision Letter 1 for Part 4, to see if it lists any diagrams that were amended or added ? (part 1 had some diagram amendments, but parts 2 & 3 were just the covers changed from the look of it).

 

Can you have a look to see if any of your book 320 parts have a copy of Revision Letter 2 and 3 ?

 

If your pile of loose diagram pages does throw up missing ones that you don't have in Book 320, but are on my list, then you could well be sitting on the goldmine that is the stuff culled during or prior to the B.R. (B) books. Particularly also if you find diagrams that are not in book 320 and neither are on my list. For example if you come across HM [001A] that would have been allocated to the bogie iron ore hoppers used on the Tyne Dock - Consett ore trains. These survived up till 1974, but I never saw any with TOPS codes on them. Mind you, didn't see any with '64 style 'boxed' lettering either for that matter ! Just 56 T above the wagon number.

 

 

 

 

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Fascinating, not a diagram book I have seen before. 

 

But, I suspect very misleading. The vans in particular are a good resume of pre-nationalisation designs - even a Mink G - but I very much doubt they made it to exist as REVENUE wagons by the time TOPS was up and running. 

 

Is MC001B depicting the very common replating of the sides of the standard 108 mineral?

 

Paul

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29 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Fascinating, not a diagram book I have seen before. 

 

But, I suspect very misleading. The vans in particular are a good resume of pre-nationalisation designs - even a Mink G - but I very much doubt they made it to exist as REVENUE wagons by the time TOPS was up and running. 

 

Is MC001B depicting the very common replating of the sides of the standard 108 mineral?

 

Paul

Are you meaning MC 011B in the earlier scanned images ? If so, it's the stiffening bars that some of the pre-nationalisation types had. Ones of L.M.S. origin in this instance.

 

Although not amongst the above scans, the various diagram MC 001 variants are the B.R. 1/108 MINs. Design codes / diagrams MC 001A to D are the re-bodied ones (diag. B.R. 1/99) with various types of brakegear. MC 001E to J cover the non-rebodied B.R. 1/108 again with various forms of brakegear - unfitted, vac, with and without empty/loaded changeover. Partial replating was simply counted as repair, so would not be evident in the diagrams.

 

Bear in mind that the first allocation of TOPS codes for wagons was made in 1970 / 1971, but the actual 'go-live' was not started until 1973 and took a couple of years to spread throughout the system, by which time some of the more obscure stuff had gone by the wayside so didn't last long enough for those vehicles to actually have received the allocated codes. So some of these diagrams might have never seen any vehicles in service. There were certainly plenty of diagrams missing from and struck through in the index of the first issue B.R. (B) TOPS diagram book. In general, within any group of design codes, at initial allocation of the codes the air-braked designs come first, then the rest of the B.R. designed diagrams, then the pre-nationalisation types. After that, new additions are appended to the list as and when they crop up.

 

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Although I've never seen it in writing I have the impression all of the pre-nat design vans were called in during 1972 at the latest. I'll ask elsewhere about this, I should have done so years ago. The pre-nat designs go from remarkably common to no present in photos over the period c1966 - 72. 

 

Yes, I missed the LMS reference on the diagram MC011B. 

 

My main point was that, for those not familiar with this early 1970s period, these numerous pre-nat van diagrams are very misleading. They simply no longer existed in REVENUE use - yes I managed to catch most of them later but in engineers or internal use. 

 

It is certainly a very welcome publication of these diagrams, and a lot of work. The anonymous poster is to be thanked very considerably. 

 

Paul

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Was the mass exodus of 12 T VANFITs in the early '70s around about the same time parcels traffic was disappearing off the railways ? A cull at this stage would have fortuitously saved someone a sizeable job entering all of them onto TOPS.

 

I remember the rail blue SPVs that had been repurposed from FISH vans also going around this same period - including the body of E 87009 randomly appearing in the middle of a field at Sadberge near Darlington. The 1N21 / 1D21 Doncaster Works Test Train that used to run round at Tyne Yard or Darlington, etc. depending on its progress managed to gain a string of these SPVs as a load for some years - later being replaced by a rake of plain blue LMS full brakes, then more latterly by blue/grey Mk.1s.

 

 

  

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On 29/11/2020 at 16:56, HGR said:

Was the mass exodus of 12 T VANFITs in the early '70s around about the same time parcels traffic was disappearing off the railways ? A cull at this stage would have fortuitously saved someone a sizeable job entering all of them onto TOPS. 

C & D Parcels with the concentration depots finished in 1982, did the Sundries traffic (less than full load) switch to NCL (hence road transport) in the early 70's, this traffic would have used a lot of vans.

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5 hours ago, HGR said:

SED Freightman :

 

As well as VW 002A that you had spotted I had missed off my list, I've also missed off VP 004A - can you have a look if you have that one as well please ?

As requested, also I have found two of the missing digrams from your original request in amongst my collection of loose sheets.  Alas, a quick look has not revealed any more of the missing diagrams so I have a nasty feeling they may have been used as scrap / note paper or for the file copies of letters in the days when carbon paper was still in general use.

 

 

BR Vehicle Diagram Book 320 (Part 4) for BR Revenue Freight Vehicles - VP004A Palvan.gif

BR Vehicle Diagram Book 320 (Part 4) for BR Revenue Freight Vehicles - VW002A Van (Wide Doors).gif

BR Vehicle Diagram Book 320 (Part 3) for BR Revenue Freight Vehicles - OH003C Hybar Wagon.gif

BR Vehicle Diagram Book 320 (Part 3) for BR Revenue Freight Vehicles - OH020A High Goods  Wagon.gif

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1 hour ago, SED Freightman said:

C & D Parcels with the concentration depots finished in 1982, did the Sundries traffic (less than full load) switch to NCL (hence road transport) in the early 70's, this traffic would have used a lot of vans.

Such sundries traffic that did remain on rail went over to air-braked vehicles on ABN (later Speedlink) from 1969 onwards

; a lot of the BR-designed vanfits then went over to seasonal traffic (fertiliser and animal feed). This meant the remaining pre-Nationalisation designs were redundant.

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Many Thanks, SED Freightman. Much appreciated.

 

Having set away to make a spreadsheet of the Design Codes and what books the various revisions of them lurk in between the books I have, those on Barrowmore and the gaps that your scanning has usefully filled, I hadn't contemplated just how long it would take ! Anyway, I now have a list that makes some sense of the B.R. (B) and Book 320 parts. What I'll do is add some titles to the code groups to make it a bit more 'readable' and then post it on here.

 

Could I trouble you please for a further trawl through your books and loose diagram pages to see if any of the following come to light ? They are mainly from parts 1 / 2 / 3, before the ones you have been scanning that were in the most my missing part 4.

 

These first two might be too 'new' for your book if it wasn't updated after the first revision, but :

 

BA 001 A      looking for ISSUE  3 of this to see if it was given the removable coil cradles as for the other variants of BAA, or if they all got transferred to the engineers fleet without having this.

 

BB 001 F      anything prior to ISSUE 4 please ?

 

Now for some older stuff ...

 

BC 003 B

BC 008 A

 

BD 005 A

 

BE 002 ?

BE 003 ?

 

BF 001 ?

BF 002 A, B      ISSUE 1

BF 003 A, B

 

BH 001 B

 

BK 001 A, B

 

BM 002 B      Bogie Bolster 'B'

 

BP 001 D, E

 

BR 001 A, B

BR 005 A

 

BS 001 A

BS 002 A

 

BT 001 A, B

BT 002 A, B

 

CA 001 B

CA 005 G, K, L

 

CA 018 A, B      were these ever allocated to G.W.R. / B.R.(W)  TOADs - before being re-used for S.R. Queen Mary bogie brake vans ?

 

CA 019 A      likely another G.W. TOAD

 

CB 001 B      1st. / ISSUE 1

 

CC 001 J, K, L      1st. / ISSUE 1

 

CD 001 A      1st. / ISSUE 1

CD 001 B      1st. / ISSUE 1 or 2

 

CG 001 ?

 

CH 001 P

 

CM 011 A

 

CP 001 G

 

CT 009 A

 

CU 001 A, B      re-coded bogie tanks - these might not have been redrawn ?

 

CX 001 A, C

 

CZ 003 ?

CZ 004 A

 

FA 003 D

FA 004 A, B

 

FB 003 A      ISSUE 1

 

FF 002 A

FF 004 A

 

FG 002 A

 

FG 004 S, T

 

FI 001 A, B, C

 

FJ 001 A

 

FP 002 A

 

FT 001 A, B

 

FV 002 A

FV 003 A, K, M, W

 

FV 013 ?      did someone superstitious skip this one !

 

FW 001 A      CONFLAT ISO TANK (ex RECTANK)

 

FZ 015 A

 

HA 002 G, J

 

HC 001 C

 

HI 002 A

 

HT 005 B

 

HT 021 A

 

JX 001 A

 

KA 001 A, B

 

KG 001 A      think this was altered slightly as well as being re-coded from KI

 

KJ 001 A, B

 

KN 001 A

 

KR 001 A

 

KT 001 ?

KT 002 ?

KT 003 A

 

KY 002 A

 

MS 002 K, L, M, P

 

MX 001 B, D

 

OV 001 B

 

SP 011 A, B      you may have looked for these already / I missed them first time round ?

ST 009 J, L, N

 

VA 001 B      the first version 45 tonne from lot 3686

VB 001 C      first version, 45 tonne from lot 3764 with centre doors (COV CD before re-coding)

 

VB 003 C, E, F

 

VD 002 A

 

VE 001 A

 

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On 28/11/2020 at 23:33, HGR said:

Revision Letter 1 is what got you from the B.R. (B) series books into the first issue of Book 320. Please can you have a look at the Revision Letter 1 for Part 4, to see if it lists any diagrams that were amended or added ? (part 1 had some diagram amendments, but parts 2 & 3 were just the covers changed from the look of it).

 

Can you have a look to see if any of your book 320 parts have a copy of Revision Letter 2 and 3 ?

 

If your pile of loose diagram pages does throw up missing ones that you don't have in Book 320, but are on my list, then you could well be sitting on the goldmine that is the stuff culled during or prior to the B.R. (B) books. Particularly also if you find diagrams that are not in book 320 and neither are on my list. For example if you come across HM [001A] that would have been allocated to the bogie iron ore hoppers used on the Tyne Dock - Consett ore trains. These survived up till 1974, but I never saw any with TOPS codes on them. Mind you, didn't see any with '64 style 'boxed' lettering either for that matter ! Just 56 T above the wagon number.

Unfortunately, I cannot locate copies of the actual Revision Letters, strangely I do have the distribution letters that were attached to several of them, but not the sheets detailing which diagrams were to be amended, inserted or disposed of, I guess the actual diagrams were more interesting and so I retained at least some of them.

 

I do not have any diagrams for the HM bogie iron ore hoppers.

 

I look forward to seeing your database of diagrams in due course, just in case I have copies of any diagrams that are not listed.

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Here we go again with the requested 'B' series wagons, unfortunately not too successful with regard to those required.  I have copied both diagram BA001A (Issue 2 - Stanchions) and BA001A (Issue 3 - Stanchions and Cradles) as the latter was discovered in my collection of loose sheets.

 

564126329_BRVehicleDiagramBook320(Part1)forBRRevenueFreightVehicles-BA001AIssue2BogieSteelCarrier-BogieSteelAB.thumb.gif.769fa2f95ab72365ba842659528df73c.gif

 

275630629_BRVehicleDiagramBook320(Part1)forBRRevenueFreightVehicles-BA001AIssue3102tGLWBogieSteelCarrier.thumb.gif.1d86e70c7fbfad312858e0bcdd2ef4e6.gif

 

824954034_BRVehicleDiagramBook320(Part1)forBRRevenueFreightVehicles-BC003ABogieBolsterCWagon.thumb.gif.3d4f1b8274dc556f2dceb175007bba53.gif

 

955782853_BRVehicleDiagramBook320(Part1)forBRRevenueFreightVehicles-BD005ABogieBolsterDWagon.thumb.gif.21c55fd223d345fb08dccee2505ac806.gif

 

1723885634_BRVehicleDiagramBook320(Part1)forBRRevenueFreightVehicles-BM002BBogieBolsterBWagon.thumb.gif.8234d15c5d2f2cb24bab3e678b73f701.gif

 

1910025303_BRVehicleDiagramBook320(Part1)forBRRevenueFreightVehicles-BP001DBoplateWagon.thumb.gif.30543da70bb93a9784a99805af1b4aec.gif

 

437277925_BRVehicleDiagramBook320(Part1)forBRRevenueFreightVehicles-BR001ABorailWagon.thumb.gif.cfbb360e8248eda966ff1707f9e7311a.gif

 

338646773_BRVehicleDiagramBook320(Part1)forBRRevenueFreightVehicles-BR001BBorailWagon.thumb.gif.c3bb738f50e886976ea53dc8d3c061d8.gif

 

1621140576_BRVehicleDiagramBook320(Part1)forBRRevenueFreightVehicles-BS002ABorailWagon.thumb.gif.3ed2e0cb4d2dfb1ae30e906df92d0460.gif

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That's interesting ... I did wonder if the first batch of BAA were also candidates for the 'flimsy' / removable transverse cradles as were the other batches, before they were all transferred to various other diagrams. Some were already given BKA with the 'kinky beams' for lengthways loading of four large coils. There was a later conversion with much more substantial (and presumably permanently fixed) transverse cradles - think it was four per wagon ? The existence of ISSUE 3 of the BA 001A diagram at least means there was an intent, though not necessarily that any wagons were actually fitted with the cradles in the end. Presumably there was a pool of cradles that could be swapped freely around the different wagons. That the code BA 001A was then cancelled means that all of the wagons in this batch had wandered off elsewhere as a result of conversion, destruction, or transfer to other type codes.

 

Of the other diagrams in my list, you will probably find many of them are pre-nationalisation or very early British Railways types. The B.R. (B) diagram books that I have do appear to have had the early cancellations removed, but then the later ones left in.

 

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Sorry, just noticed that I should have scanned diagram BC 003B not A, so here it is.

 

With regard to diagram BA 001A, Issue 3, the wagon ends appear to have been removed, presumably to balance the additional weight of the cradles, leaving the wagon tare and load capacity unchanged, this might suggest that the cradles were to be a semi permanent addition.

 

1208521388_BRVehicleDiagramBook320(Part1)forBRRevenueFreightVehicles-BC003BBogieBolsterCWagon.thumb.gif.5e5b5a97cd0c949da6af11508941446d.gif

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1 hour ago, SED Freightman said:

Sorry, just noticed that I should have scanned diagram BC 003B not A, so here it is.

 

With regard to diagram BA 001A, Issue 3, the wagon ends appear to have been removed, presumably to balance the additional weight of the cradles, leaving the wagon tare and load capacity unchanged, this might suggest that the cradles were to be a semi permanent addition.

 

The ends started to be removed when the lengthways cradles were fitted. Looking at some of the wagons in service around the time, like they had been butchered quite brutally with a gas-axe. The purpose was to make loading over the ends easier, to stop the crane operators putting the nut on the wagon ends on the way in.

 

The cradles on the BAA / BAB wagons with AARKND ending 'F' as they had been previously were described as 'removable' so presumably a nut-and-bolt job, whereas the couple of BBA diagrams issued specifically for cradles don't seem to include the removable feature, and AARKND bumped up to BBA-G.

 

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