P58586 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 I'm just finished a freelance continental O-gauge bogie tank car for ferry use. Finding a square-on picture of the information board that such wagons carried has eluded me. Does anybody make transfers for such wagons/vans? My PC skills are not adequate to do the artwork; has anybody done so? The relevance of the information doesn't matter....if it looks right, then it is right! Very best wishes, Peter Prydderch Stockport, UK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor quinn Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Andreas Nothaft do various decals for European wagons including tankers for various eras https://www.modellbahndecals.de Here’s one I did earlier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, P58586 said: I'm just finished a freelance continental O-gauge bogie tank car for ferry use. Finding a square-on picture of the information board that such wagons carried has eluded me. Does anybody make transfers for such wagons/vans? My PC skills are not adequate to do the artwork; has anybody done so? The relevance of the information doesn't matter....if it looks right, then it is right! Very best wishes, Peter Prydderch Stockport, UK Hi Peter What era are you modelling? Given that it's a bogie tank car I'm guessing that it's Ep IV or later so it would be the more modern sort of signage that Dr. Quinn is showing. Signage changed radically in the early 1960s from national numbering schemes to the computer identifiable UIC markings used more or less ever since. I'm not sure when Hazmat signs appeared but I'm also not sure what hazardous cargoes were/are allowed on train ferries. The owning railway and the country code are fairly prominent and should be consistent with one another so it's worth thinking about what country you want your wagon to belong to. The anchor symbol, indicating that the wagon fits UK loading gauge etc. is also needed. The other numbers would probably only mean anything to the real experts. Edited October 25, 2020 by Pacific231G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
P58586 Posted October 26, 2020 Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 Thank you both for your input. I've just looked at the site Dr. Q mentioned, and I find that I need a translator. The period references referred to are new to me, as I model BR (WR) in the late Fifties. The location was near a Monsanto chemical plant, and ferry tank wagons served it. I butchered a US vehicle to look European, without any particular company/nationality in mind that could have served the factory. I'm looking for something like the stolen image attached.....not sure how to enlarge it. The donor collection hasn't anything square-on that I could copy/print. The rest of today is accounted for, but I'll go back onto Dr. Q's site, and apply my mind. Once again, thanks very much. Very best wishes, Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 Peter that wagon panel is far too modern for your period. try a search for 'Citernes OCEM' - this os much closer to what you need. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 Thats too modern. Already mentioned for the 50s you don't want these international numberings. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sts288/e301aa9c9 https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/tslinternat/e379f979c are examples. More around the site. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 The anchor symbol does not mean it can run in the UK , it just refers to it being suitable for movement on train ferries as at the time pre Channel Tunnel the train ferry was the only way for wagons to come from the continent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor quinn Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) Andreas Nothaft French Ep 3 decals (pre UIC) markings are on this page https://www.modellbahndecals.de/Decals-Gueterwagen/Komplettbeschriftungen/Epoche-3-sonstige-108/Frankreich-219/ there are two tanks listed, 1 for milk and the other wine. They will however customise decals and reply in English. Edited October 27, 2020 by doctor quinn Not needed 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
P58586 Posted October 27, 2020 Author Share Posted October 27, 2020 Thanks for the additional input. I've just ordered:- Nass-Schiebebilder: Güterwagen-Komplettbeschriftung K, SNCF-EUROP, Epoche 3. Artikel-Nummer: 7831". Frankly, I've not the vaguest idea what it is, but It seemed like what Dr. Q was advising. 'Couldn't see his exact reference there, but, if it's wrong, I've wasted more on less.......we'll see. The camera certainly shows up the faults. A section was removed form the middle, and the height was reduced. Slaters fine scale continental wheels were fitted. The lettering is Gauge 1 Norfolk & Western lettering, to make a name that sounds foreign. The yellow chain anchors taxed my mind for some time. I used the KaDee pliers for adjusting their couplers to make the bends on the ends of wire. 'Soldered two together, and banged the soft copper wire with a hammer. without any ability to control the thickness of the flattened product. Overall, I'm pleased with it. The wall behind is blank, as I've yet to decide what half-relief buildings to fill it with. Looking at the bus, it's the one that i went to school in.....all of sixty-plus years ago. The vehicle behind was picked up at the 0-Gauge show last year. 'No idea what it is. Providing they're marshalled between low wagons the height isn't so noticeable. But, hey....it's only a hobby. Thank you all for your help. Peter 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) On 26/10/2020 at 20:54, Mark Saunders said: The anchor symbol does not mean it can run in the UK , it just refers to it being suitable for movement on train ferries as at the time pre Channel Tunnel the train ferry was the only way for wagons to come from the continent. Hi Mark My understanding is that though it's generally referred to in French publications as "Gabarit Anglais"- British loading gauge, the anchor in a rectangle technically indicates a wagon that can be used without restriction on any SG UIC member railway. As the most restrictive loading gauge is that of Great Britain and, before the tunnel, it also had to be capable of using an open-sea ferry crossing it means that the wagon is suitable both for transport by ferry and to run on both British and continental Euope's railways so within Britain's restrictive loading gauge and presumably also at least through piped for Westinghouse as well as vacuum braking systems. There were and are other standard gauge train ferries in Europe, most notably accross the strait of Messina between Italy and Sicilly and in Scandinavia and there were wagon carrying barges that crossed the Dardanelles at Istanbul. All these were AFAIK far more sheltered crossings than those to and from Britain (though I'm not sure about the Messina Strait in that regard) so may not have required additional fittings for chaining down as may been required in the English Channel and North Sea There's a good article here https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/4-rstock/04arstock9.htm and if anyone needs it I've got the basic design for the identification panel (for France at least) before the changeover to modern UIC markings in the early 1960s. Edited October 31, 2020 by Pacific231G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 From personal observation, the 'Anchor' symbol seems to indicate 'suitable for use on services to the United Kingdom' when seen on freight vehicles. However, it is also to be seen on passenger stock, where it would seem to indicate that the vehicle can use the various train ferries around Europe. Apart from the very conspicuous securing fixtures, I would think this included some sort of 'retention facility' for the toilets, as was fitted to the cattle wagons that worked from Dover to Dunkerque. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 2 hours ago, Fat Controller said: From personal observation, the 'Anchor' symbol seems to indicate 'suitable for use on services to the United Kingdom' when seen on freight vehicles. However, it is also to be seen on passenger stock, where it would seem to indicate that the vehicle can use the various train ferries around Europe. Apart from the very conspicuous securing fixtures, I would think this included some sort of 'retention facility' for the toilets, as was fitted to the cattle wagons that worked from Dover to Dunkerque. I've had to go through three books to find this out but according to George Behrend's Grand European Expresses the F class Voitures Lits that worked the Night Ferry services didn't have retention tanks. Passengers could though use the toilets while at sea as there were soil pits between the rails with a sea water flushing system. Hinged plates covered these when they weren't in use to enable the entire deck to be used by trucks. I don't know what the arrangements were on other European train ferries but I think they all had far shorter passages. I've not heard of special carriages having to be used on the Scandinavian train ferries or the sevices to Sicilly but my friends in the Italian Railway Society may be able to help with that. I've just been looking at a couple of videos of the Messina train ferry and couldn't see any anchor signs on the carriages but they weren't particularly well shot. I can't lay hands on my copy of European Train Ferries but it may not tell me that anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium readingtype Posted November 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 17, 2020 On 31/10/2020 at 12:45, Pacific231G said: and if anyone needs it I've got the basic design for the identification panel (for France at least) before the changeover to modern UIC markings in the early 1960s. 'Need' might be too strong, but I'd be very grateful. I plan to put together some transfer artwork for French stock. Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium readingtype Posted November 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 17, 2020 (edited) On 31/10/2020 at 13:00, Fat Controller said: However, [the anchor] is also to be seen on passenger stock, where it would seem to indicate that the vehicle can use the various train ferries around Europe On page 97 of Taschenbuch der Eisenbahn (vol. 1, Frankh'sche Verlag, Stuttgart, 1977) Horst J Obermayer 'decodes' the RIC grid (the one that is found at solebar level on carriages and starts with the maximum speed at the left). This grid includes lots of info about which (national) railways the vehicle is cleared to run on and the supply voltages it can accept. The anchor symbol may be featured on this grid. As far as I can tell, since it seems the anchor should have been included in the explanation but it is not, the anchor has the following meaning: The vehicle meets the requirements for transfer on ferries of the lines Rodby Faerge, Saßnitz -- Trelleborg, Reggio di Calabria -- Messina and Villa San Giovanni--Messina Then in the next box there are four additional codes for other specific lines: HH: Helsingor -- Helsingborg, KM: Copenhagen -- Malmö, KN: Korsor -- Nyborg, GW: Gedser -- Warnemünde. These routes are all detailed in Train Ferries of Western Europe by P Ransome-Wallis (Ian Allan, Shepperton, 1968) which I think is the book referred to by @Pacific231G. It's a classic, though as Turkey is included 'Western' should be taken with a pinch of sea salt. Incidentally Taschenbuch der Eisenbahn is great too if you are into Deutsche Bundesbahn Epoche IV :-) Edited November 17, 2020 by readingtype Swapped a couple of codes by mistake Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 12 hours ago, readingtype said: 'Need' might be too strong, but I'd be very grateful. I plan to put together some transfer artwork for French stock. Ben I'm busy today but will dig it out soon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 On 17/11/2020 at 21:00, readingtype said: 'Need' might be too strong, but I'd be very grateful. I plan to put together some transfer artwork for French stock. Ben Hi Ben This is what I've been able to dig up. This shows the basic pre UIC standardisation form of French wagon markings. The typeface appears to be "Police SNCF" a quite distinctive type design mich used by both SNCF and others. This is how it looks on the side of an Interfrigo van and shows where some of the other markings would be found. This is another Interfrigo "isotherme" wagon and this is how the main identification pancarte appered from three different countries. The anchor is not well sketched! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium readingtype Posted November 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2020 @Pacific231GSuperb. Thanks. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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