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3D Printed Pre-Grouping Wagons 4mm-7mm


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31 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Row 4 looks good to me!

Theres a surprise Andy :) 

I have some more planned for row 4 along with a row of GCR and L&YR next as a heads up 

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I hope you will forgive an observation, based on much looking at photographs and drawings of pre-grouping wagons, as well as building 4 mm scale models. On many of your CAD drawings, you seem to have delineated the planks with rectangular grooves of quite substantial dimensions. On the real thing, the top edge of the horizontal planks and of the side rail is usually chamfered at 45°, the width of the chamfer being typically ⅜" (measured in the vertical and horizontal planes) - 0.13 mm in 4 mm scale. Vertical boarding, as found on many covered goods wagons, especially the fancier types of vans, often has no chamfer at all so from a distance, the joins in the boards are next to invisible, especially on a recently-painted vehicle in good condition. Some slight exaggeration may be needed for printing, I imagine. One meets some older injection molded or cast kits which have rectangular grooves like yours but I suppose this is due to the limitations of steel pattern-making using a milling machine. 3D printing from a CAD imposes no such technical limitation.

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10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

. 3D printing from a CAD imposes no such technical limitation.

 

Oh yes it does. It's all made up of cubes, just like the pixels on a screen. Resolution of those cubes is important, And if printing in resin it won't always get the excess uncured stuff out of a groove. Then there's  material shrinkage and getting the exposure just right to actually get the theoretical dimensions to carry over to the real world....Just because you can make perfectly accurate prototypical CAD doesn't mean it will print like that. 

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12 minutes ago, Quarryscapes said:

Oh yes it does. It's all made up of cubes, just like the pixels on a screen. Resolution of those cubes is important, And if printing in resin it won't always get the excess uncured stuff out of a groove. Then there's  material shrinkage and getting the exposure just right to actually get the theoretical dimensions to carry over to the real world....Just because you can make perfectly accurate prototypical CAD doesn't mean it will print like that. 

 

OK, so using the sort of equipment @woko has, how close can you get?

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On 11/06/2021 at 09:52, Compound2632 said:

I hope you will forgive an observation, based on much looking at photographs and drawings of pre-grouping wagons, as well as building 4 mm scale models. On many of your CAD drawings, you seem to have delineated the planks with rectangular grooves of quite substantial dimensions. On the real thing, the top edge of the horizontal planks and of the side rail is usually chamfered at 45°, the width of the chamfer being typically ⅜" (measured in the vertical and horizontal planes) - 0.13 mm in 4 mm scale. Vertical boarding, as found on many covered goods wagons, especially the fancier types of vans, often has no chamfer at all so from a distance, the joins in the boards are next to invisible, especially on a recently-painted vehicle in good condition. Some slight exaggeration may be needed for printing, I imagine. One meets some older injection molded or cast kits which have rectangular grooves like yours but I suppose this is due to the limitations of steel pattern-making using a milling machine. 3D printing from a CAD imposes no such technical limitation.

Hello Compound

 

Im always happy to get feedback chap, especially as I have seen your thread on wagons and its very good chap.  However im not entirely sure where you are referring to exactly on these wagons, apologies for that. I have made the gaps slightly wider than in reality, this is just to help with the definition during the printing process, its a personal choice, some think its perhaps a wee bit wide for their liking, however printing out in 4mm I have been very happy with the results, especially for painting, and weathering these wagons it certainly helps. All the planks have a very fine chamfer that is hard to read on these images, but softens the actual print i find, and doesn't give hard edges. Though it will depend on the printer, and its resolution.

 

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On 11/06/2021 at 19:33, wainwright1 said:

More importantly, how many of these have been test printed ?

Ray

Hello Ray

 

Hope you are all good sir?

 

So to answer that question roughly about 20 have been test printed, and I have made many mistakes along the way, however im pretty confident they will all print well, and during the rest of this year I will printing and posting the progress, and painting them all up, a lot of them in 7mm for the club all being well, especially the GN, and LBSCR wagons, but the rest will get printed mostly on request and for my fathers model railway who is always complaining he has very little to pull behind his pre-grouping locomotives! 

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On 11/06/2021 at 10:19, Compound2632 said:

 

OK, so using the sort of equipment @woko has, how close can you get?

I'm using the Anycubic series of Mono screen printers both the Mono and Mono X which have a pretty good resolution of 2K and 4K as Quarryscapes points out its very much a testing process to see what works! Foe example It took me several test prints to get the feel for the brickwork on some of the model buildings I made on this earlier thread 

The brickwork and stonework on these models is clearly exaggerated along with the mortar gaps to help with the printing process, admittedly this is FDM printing not resin, which can provide a better resolution and detail, but once painted a reasonable result can hopefully be achieved.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

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11 hours ago, woko said:

However im not entirely sure where you are referring to exactly on these wagons, apologies for that. 

 

As shown in cross-section in this extract from a scan of Midland Railway drawing, held by the Midland Railway Study Centre, Item 88-D1879:

 

1783290537_88-D1879D299highsidedwagonDrg550kneedetail.jpg.2f865fa9474284c04b4f1fbafb6174f5.jpg

 

If this is still unclear, I'm happy to try to explain further. 

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As shown in cross-section in this extract from a scan of Midland Railway drawing, held by the Midland Railway Study Centre, Item 88-D1879:

 

 

Morning Stephen

 

Thank you for sharing this is perfect and I can now see exactly what you are referring to, and looking at my models they don't have that small chamfer as you pointed out, however at 4mm would it read? At 7mm it would be more obvious, and something i can certainly apply, I currently have a 30 degree taper on my planks which help push the planking definition along the wagon fascia. But it is something that can be applied, and something I feel the 7mm wagons may well benefit from this detail

 

Cheers

 

Rob

 

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12 hours ago, woko said:

I'm using the Anycubic series of Mono screen printers both the Mono and Mono X which have a pretty good resolution of 2K and 4K as Quarryscapes points out its very much a testing process to see what works! Foe example It took me several test prints to get the feel for the brickwork on some of the model buildings I made on this earlier thread 

The brickwork and stonework on these models is clearly exaggerated along with the mortar gaps to help with the printing process, admittedly this is FDM printing not resin, which can provide a better resolution and detail, but once painted a reasonable result can hopefully be achieved.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

Hi Rob.

Just had look at your buildings thread which I had not seen before. Got some very characterful models there. I like the look of them especially the saggy roofs. Gave me the impression that the technique would produce some very nice buildings for an 'Oh Mr Porter' type layout. The dilapidated station and signal box and maybe a haunted windmill would make some of yours look tidy in comparison. I like painting buildings, especially where you can work up the variations in brick colour and the rendering.

 

The technicalities of 3D printing are well beyond my abilities and my rickerty computer would probably have a nervous breakdown trying to handle this type of stuff.

 

With regard to wagons/coaches, my main interest is SE & CR, closely followed by LB & SCR plus Isle of Wight, but I also like to have a small representation of other pre-grouping companies, as their wagons got around. I particularly like some of the more obscure or unusual ones which have not been previously produced as kits. You have quite a few in your range, so a small selection would be nice to have when you have time to print them. In fact, looking at your list, you probably now have a range big enough to rival some of the established manufacturers.

 

All the best

Ray

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15 minutes ago, woko said:

Morning Stephen

 

Thank you for sharing this is perfect and I can now see exactly what you are referring to, and looking at my models they don't have that small chamfer as you pointed out, however at 4mm would it read? At 7mm it would be more obvious, and something i can certainly apply, I currently have a 30 degree taper on my planks which help push the planking definition along the wagon fascia. But it is something that can be applied, and something I feel the 7mm wagons may well benefit from this detail

 

Cheers

 

Rob

 

 

As I see it, it's a question of how close to the prototype one can get within the limitations of the technology; obviously a prerequisite for that is good information on the prototype. In the absence of copies of drawing office drawings, photographs and a diagram can get one there, if coupled with an understanding of how the real thing goes together.

 

I think the Mousa Models offerings strike a good compromise; these are printed resin, I understand; I don't know what equipment Bill is using. But he's a commercial manufacturer, so one can argue that stricter standards apply since he has to satisfy his customers as well as himself.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Hi Rob.

Just had look at your buildings thread which I had not seen before. Got some very characterful models there. I like the look of them especially the saggy roofs. Gave me the impression that the technique would produce some very nice buildings for an 'Oh Mr Porter' type layout. The dilapidated station and signal box and maybe a haunted windmill would make some of yours look tidy in comparison. I like painting buildings, especially where you can work up the variations in brick colour and the rendering.

 

The technicalities of 3D printing are well beyond my abilities and my rickerty computer would probably have a nervous breakdown trying to handle this type of stuff.

 

With regard to wagons/coaches, my main interest is SE & CR, closely followed by LB & SCR plus Isle of Wight, but I also like to have a small representation of other pre-grouping companies, as their wagons got around. I particularly like some of the more obscure or unusual ones which have not been previously produced as kits. You have quite a few in your range, so a small selection would be nice to have when you have time to print them. In fact, looking at your list, you probably now have a range big enough to rival some of the established manufacturers.

 

All the best

Ray

Hi Ray

 

If completely honest i love working on the buildings more, mostly because I get to add an element of design to them, with the railway wagons, and carriages I have been modelling this stuff has to be spot on, but i first started in 3d printing with buildings, building up the scenery for my dads MR, whilst off topic in this thread it was great fun to make, and it was using FDM printing far less accurate than the new resin printers, but painted up doesn't look to bad, although slightly overscaled stone work :)  725173258_IMG_1511(1).JPG.7867c2f96d1d730fc0d8a6e99f8b2f90.JPG

 

As for the wagons Ray yes I am up and printing again finally, so just email me any you would like and I will get cracking sir :) 

 

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4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As I see it, it's a question of how close to the prototype one can get within the limitations of the technology; obviously a prerequisite for that is good information on the prototype. In the absence of copies of drawing office drawings, photographs and a diagram can get one there, if coupled with an understanding of how the real thing goes together.

 

I think the Mousa Models offerings strike a good compromise; these are printed resin, I understand; I don't know what equipment Bill is using. But he's a commercial manufacturer, so one can argue that stricter standards apply since he has to satisfy his customers as well as himself.

 

 

 

 

Hi Stephen

 

Thanks for sending over that link to Mousa Models, some excellent wagons, and very nicely finished, and while Bill as you say at Mousa Models does this for a business, and the prices certainly reflect this and quite rightly so they are very nice. I'm not a business and have modelled this stuff up during lockdown, happy to sell a few prints to anyone who might like some, really only to help fund the hobby which it really won't especially as the cost of printers whilst coming down are still expensive, I have just ordered a new Phrozen 8K which when it ships finally later this year should probably cost around 1500-2k but  the possibilities it throws up are fantastic, and put 7mm rolling stock on the cards. I have modelled this stuff mostly for my father to have something to pull at 4mm, and then for the ESMRC and their exciting new 7mm layout currently in production, based on a fictitious LBSCR and GNR Terminus set in London which i have posted a link to below

For the most part a lot of this stuff can be hard to get hold of, or expensive especially at 7mm, so I figured I would build/print what I can on my current printers, and plan for newer printers coming along. As I really enjoy the modelling aspect and the creating side more than I do the running of trains, but one day my ambition would be to build an entire layout modelled completely from models I have built myself. That is way off in the future right now, so in the meantime just happy to crack on modelling, but I'm always happy to get folks feedback and thoughts, as it really helps and pushes me to make better models as i progress through this process :) 

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Hi Rob.

 

I assume that the bigger machine will also allow you to produce some larger stuff in 00 ?

Perhaps something exotic, like the LS &SCR 12 wheeled Directors Saloon as preserved on the Bluebell Railway though not in original condition. I think that it is covered by one of Mike Kings drawings.

Equally unusual, the LB & SCR overhead AC electric stock. Several types and I do not think that I have seen a layout featuring this. Mike King drawings available.

Something that would be really good for our Crystal Palace High Level layout would be the original 1925 Eastern Section 3-SUB Electric stock (units 1496-1524). Only two coaches bodies to design, Driving Car and Trailer, with underframe differences for the two driving coaches. Again there is a Mike King drawing.

Ours would have to be in lined Southern livery and I do not fancy doing the yellow/black lining, very fine and wrapped around the end corners.

 

We can but hope.

 

All the best

Ray   

 

 

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On 14/06/2021 at 08:01, woko said:

Hi Ray

 

If completely honest i love working on the buildings more, mostly because I get to add an element of design to them, with the railway wagons, and carriages I have been modelling this stuff has to be spot on, 

 

 

You're not wrong. I've done a few locos and such in the past few years, and I have to agree that I find them a bit of a bind at times. I've one more I'm going to start soon, but nothing else planned. As you say, I'm finding the buildings to be more fun - partly as there's more leeway. 

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3 hours ago, JCL said:

 

You're not wrong. I've done a few locos and such in the past few years, and I have to agree that I find them a bit of a bind at times. I've one more I'm going to start soon, but nothing else planned. As you say, I'm finding the buildings to be more fun - partly as there's more leeway. 

I can tell Jason your building stuff is looking fantastic chap, really coming on, and true the buildings give you more freedom, i find the rolling stock is far stricter, and less forgiving from folks :) 

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Printed off this little SER Brake Van in 4mm from my wagon collection, need to add the Decals to finish it off, and a spot of weathering, but reasonably happy with the result

 

IMG_2293.JPG.302f9d368e3d8b738f0bd49945b8237b.JPGIMG_2292.JPG.d56dc092927272c69b2065831753c733.JPG

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On 23/06/2021 at 12:48, woko said:

Printed off this little SER Brake Van in 4mm from my wagon collection, need to add the Decals to finish it off, and a spot of weathering, but reasonably happy with the result

 

IMG_2293.JPG.302f9d368e3d8b738f0bd49945b8237b.JPGIMG_2292.JPG.d56dc092927272c69b2065831753c733.JPG

Hi Rob.

 

That looks good.

Taking a closer look, I see a few diagonal lines in the middle section above the handrail, but they should be fairly easy to remove. More curious, there appears to be a stepping effect on the upper parts of the planks which appears on both sides.

Would that be correctable before printing ?

 

All the best

Ray

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  • 2 weeks later...

Doing some test prints of the SECR Stock, a few issues, mostly I think my screen needs cleaning as im getting a few lines in the final prints, but none the less once painted and transfers have been added I can ship these off to my Dad to run behind his C Class, as I think he was a bit to late to snag one of Dapols/Rails lovely D classes :( 

 

Anyway hopefully more to come soon, all in 4mm without transfers, NEM pockets yet eitherIMG_2296.JPG.80d177a79a6d4ff7e79770c3fc357acd.JPGIMG_2299.JPG.42bbe5450c44e9406907e61e465fcd30.JPGIMG_2301.JPG.b3fb0ed3184f3e4eac016e1466a526b7.JPGIMG_2302.JPG.a71eac6e7f22969b0c91dd08072d28d7.JPGIMG_2304.JPG.27a461a71ee594ee76d30b3d6fe2a986.JPG

 

 

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20 hours ago, woko said:

Doing some test prints of the SECR Stock, a few issues, mostly I think my screen needs cleaning as im getting a few lines in the final prints, but none the less once painted and transfers have been added I can ship these off to my Dad to run behind his C Class, as I think he was a bit to late to snag one of Dapols/Rails lovely D classes :( 

 

Anyway hopefully more to come soon, all in 4mm without transfers, NEM pockets yet eitherIMG_2296.JPG.80d177a79a6d4ff7e79770c3fc357acd.JPGIMG_2299.JPG.42bbe5450c44e9406907e61e465fcd30.JPGIMG_2301.JPG.b3fb0ed3184f3e4eac016e1466a526b7.JPGIMG_2302.JPG.a71eac6e7f22969b0c91dd08072d28d7.JPGIMG_2304.JPG.27a461a71ee594ee76d30b3d6fe2a986.JPG

 

 

Hi Rob.

These are looking really good. I have given the pictures the cruel test, copied them into word where I can blow them up to study the fine details. I can see the lines in question and hope that your cleaning up will reduce them. I use Deluxe Perfect Plastic Putty which works as a good surface filler and would be good for finishing the process.

The cattle wagon looks excellent and you have got all the partition slots in the right places, unlike the Oxford one.

Do you think that you can straighten the louvres on the prize cattle van ?

I hope that i might be able to order some of these soon. Trying to justify getting one of those distinctive incline break vans.

All the best

Ray

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44 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Hi Rob.

These are looking really good. I have given the pictures the cruel test, copied them into word where I can blow them up to study the fine details. I can see the lines in question and hope that your cleaning up will reduce them. I use Deluxe Perfect Plastic Putty which works as a good surface filler and would be good for finishing the process.

The cattle wagon looks excellent and you have got all the partition slots in the right places, unlike the Oxford one.

Do you think that you can straighten the louvres on the prize cattle van ?

I hope that i might be able to order some of these soon. Trying to justify getting one of those distinctive incline break vans.

All the best

Ray

Hello Ray

Thanks sir.

Yes im hoping the clean up will work, if not sadly they may stay until I have replaced the screen! 

But if not Deluxe perfect putty sounds perfect i might get some for my models!

As for the louvres I was super happy with them so far as its the straightest i have achieved at that scale, I would have to thicken them up quite a bit I imagine to give them more strength at this scale. 

 

I would like to print an Incline Brake at 7mm with some added details including the interesting handrails

 

Cheers

 

Rob

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23 hours ago, woko said:

Hello Ray

Thanks sir.

Yes im hoping the clean up will work, if not sadly they may stay until I have replaced the screen! 

But if not Deluxe perfect putty sounds perfect i might get some for my models!

As for the louvres I was super happy with them so far as its the straightest i have achieved at that scale, I would have to thicken them up quite a bit I imagine to give them more strength at this scale. 

 

I would like to print an Incline Brake at 7mm with some added details including the interesting handrails

 

Cheers

 

Rob

Hi Rob.

 

A couple of notes.

The Deluxe Perfect Putty is water soluble which can be an aid to cleaning up afterwards.

If the louvres will not print straight, is the material manipulatable with say some hot water to help straighten them out ?

 

All the best

Ray

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