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How long should model railway stuff last?


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A late night musing:

 

Just perusing another topic and the OP is remarking upon how his 15 year old model railway item needs modifying for reliability............

The item in particular is normally kept in the garage and only brought into the house when being worked upon.

(Thus ensuring a mix of temperature and humidity changes that just aren't conducive to anything other than basic garden tools IMO)

 

It leads me to ask - of all the hobbies/pastimes I've been involved with over the years - it seems to be that railway modellers are the worst culprits for expecting stuff to last forever despite various storage/usage conditions.

 

For example:

Expecting the likes of 1960s made H&M controllers to function as new when found in the back of a drawer after 50 years.

Yes - I know they're well made but:

What about degradation in the insulation?

Corrosion to terminals?

Weakness in spring contacts?

 

I've been partaking in this hobby for over 50 years and would simply not expect things to work the same now as then (I certainly don't work as well as I did 15 years ago - never mind 50 - unless I take painkillers). 

 

I'm sure there will be many on here saying that "they don't make like them like they used to", but at the end of the day, it's only a toy train set [*] and has a limited life span.

 

I also read about MR stuff that doesn't work "out of the box" despite being left in that box for 10 years or so.

After all - would you expect your car to fire up first time after being left for 10 months, never mind 10 years?

It takes a bit of TLC to coax something back to life after so long.

 

I don't disagree that - if properly looked after - things will last longer.

 

But are we asking too much for it to last (seemingly) forever?

 

[*] tongue in cheek comment

 

 

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6 hours ago, newbryford said:

Expecting the likes of 1960s made H&M controllers to function as new when found in the back of a drawer after 50 years.

 

The number of people who have asked me how my stuff runs well and then proudly admit they are using a H&M older then I am! My guess is that weakness in the sprung contacts on the back of the knob is the biggest issue, but in truth you have to accept that technology has moved on. Even my beloved Gaugemaster handheld controllers are old(ish) tech.

 

There was an H&M Walkabout advert in the 1980s that took the mickey out of modellers who always thing that the thing their layout needs is another shiny loco instead of a bit of investment in the basic infrastructure that makes the model fun to run. Times haven't changed!

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Yes, pre-plastic-age things last exceedingly well if not exposed to the damp.


Early permanent magnet motors are problematic, but wound-field motors generally survive well. Some early Mazak castings suffer, but many don’t.

 

Best survivors seem to be high-quality clockwork locos with painted, rather than lithographed, tin bodies, and good-quality lithographed tin rolling stock. There are plenty of these still going strong after more than a century with only very basic maintenance.

 

Sometimes, I run my layout entirely with trains made in the 1950s, and I know guys who run theirs entirely with 1920s or 1930s stuff, and one or two guys who won’t run anything made after the First World War.

 

But, things t unused and un-maintained do need coaxing, usually cleaning and re-lubrication. It is far better to use old crocks, not too often, and always carefully, but use rather than simply store.

 


 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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My recent flirtation with US made Marx trains has left me quite impressed. Even cosmetically very ratty locos have sprung into life with applied Volts. Once cleaned, they've run like sewing machines. These are examples that are between 60 and 80 years old, and appear to have had no maintenance apart from occasionally being dipped in a mixture of 3in1 and carpet fluff. 

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If something fails/only works intermittently on a model railway, as frustrating as it is, is it only adding a touch of realism? Many things on the 'real' railway fail/work intermittently to a far greater annoyance. Not much help in answering the OP, just an observation and comment. 

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9 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

 

But are we asking too much for it to last (seemingly) forever?

 

[*] tongue in cheek comment

 

 

 

Given replacement parts (like Triggers Broom)  they should do. :D

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In practice a lot of model railway stuff (and especially layouts) often dies with the modeller, as it is usually of no use or interest to the next of kin personally and has value to them only in as much as it is worth what they are able to sell it for.  As they don't know what they are looking at, they can't sell it on ebay as they can't give a decent description.   

 

When I was a lad many museums had beautifully engineered scale models of locos and ships in display cases.  I have not seen anything like as many in more recent years - so what has happened to them?  I don't doubt that a lot of good models get scrapped - but then so did the prototype. 

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How about this http://applications.nam.lighting.philips.com/blog/index.php/2017/07/05/visiting-the-oldest-working-light-bulb-in-world-the-centennial-light-bulb/

 

In 1978 I bought a new Fleischmann DB103 loco. I can't detect any paint fade or plastic/metal deterioration. Even the E5 Osram running lights are the originals with the factory red paint sealing. The engine room bulbs are hard soldered to the main board so the people who made must of thought the bulbs last a long time !

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15 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

In practice a lot of model railway stuff (and especially layouts) often dies with the modeller, as it is usually of no use or interest to the next of kin personally and has value to them only in as much as it is worth what they are able to sell it for.  As they don't know what they are looking at, they can't sell it on ebay as they can't give a decent description.   

 

When I was a lad many museums had beautifully engineered scale models of locos and ships in display cases.  I have not seen anything like as many in more recent years - so what has happened to them?  I don't doubt that a lot of good models get scrapped - but then so did the prototype. 

 

Most will be in storage, in a dusty warehouse. Talking to some museum curators/experts* nobody wants to see them....

 

More likely they don't fit into their agenda and are seen as old tat.

 

Some museums are pretty good with them. Although the same museum has lots of historic items left to rot.

 

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/ship-models-collection

 

*Someone with a degree in Media Studies from an ex Polytechnic

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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2 hours ago, rocor said:

 

Given replacement parts (like Triggers Broom)  they should do. :D

 

I know that was meant tongue in cheek, but quite a lot of truth there.

 

Do you expect to do basic maintenance and replace parts such as motors, gears, etc. over the years? I certainly do. 

 

I don't think that a brand new Hornby locomotive is going to be as resilient as some ancient Hornby Dublo models. But as long as they are looked after I would expect them to last at least a few decades.

 

Giving them an occasional run is a good idea. Even if it's just a few minutes on a rolling road or on a length of track.

 

 

Jason

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1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

Most will be in storage, in a dusty warehouse. Talking to some museum curators/experts* nobody wants to see them....

 

More likely they don't fit into their agenda and are seen as old tat.

 

It couldn't be that people's tastes change? Or that they rotate the collection? I know Birmingham has a huge warehouse full of stuff that moves through the museum. Some of it, like the old computers, will be of limited interest, but still valuable.  The Science Museum used to have a huge gallery of model boats but every time I went in it, I was alone. That's a lot of space in central London for one person to wander around looking at display cases.

 

52 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Do you expect to do basic maintenance and replace parts such as motors, gears, etc. over the years? I certainly do. 

 

And plenty of people can't stick the details supplied with their models into the pre-drilled holes. If you can't do that, basic maintenance isn't an option.

 

53 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I don't think that a brand new Hornby locomotive is going to be as resilient as some ancient Hornby Dublo models.

 

But the new model will be much more detailed and all that detail, especially on the chassis, impedes access to the insides.

 

54 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

But as long as they are looked after I would expect them to last at least a few decades.

 

Giving them an occasional run is a good idea. Even if it's just a few minutes on a rolling road or on a length of track.

 

Very sensible. Those boxes containing "never run" models offered on eBay might not be such a good deal after all...

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8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, pre-plastic-age things last exceedingly well if not exposed to the damp.


Early permanent magnet motors are problematic, but wound-field motors generally survive well. Some early Mazak castings suffer, but many don’t.

 

Best survivors seem to be high-quality clockwork locos with painted, rather than lithographed, tin bodies, and good-quality lithographed tin rolling stock. There are plenty of these still going strong after more than a century with only very basic maintenance.

 

Sometimes, I run my layout entirely with trains made in the 1950s, and I know guys who run theirs entirely with 1920s or 1930s stuff, and one or two guys who won’t run anything made after the First World War.

 

But, things t unused and un-maintained do need coaxing, usually cleaning and re-lubrication. It is far better to use old crocks, not too often, and always carefully, but use rather than simply store.

 


 

 

Must say, having been raised on it, I like earlier electric motor 'noise'! These modern locos remind me of that moment in classic westerns when someone says: "It's TOO quiet!" ;) 

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11 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The number of people who have asked me how my stuff runs well and then proudly admit they are using a H&M older then I am! My guess is that weakness in the sprung contacts on the back of the knob is the biggest issue, but in truth you have to accept that technology has moved on. Even my beloved Gaugemaster handheld controllers are old(ish) tech.

 

There was an H&M Walkabout advert in the 1980s that took the mickey out of modellers who always thing that the thing their layout needs is another shiny loco instead of a bit of investment in the basic infrastructure that makes the model fun to run. Times haven't changed!

The H&M Walkabout - still the best controller ever (except for coreless motors). I still have two in regular use along with a few newer units. My 4 year old grandson uses my H&M Walkabout as his "weapon of choice".

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4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

It couldn't be that people's tastes change? Or that they rotate the collection? I know Birmingham has a huge warehouse full of stuff that moves through the museum. Some of it, like the old computers, will be of limited interest, but still valuable.  The Science Museum used to have a huge gallery of model boats but every time I went in it, I was alone. That's a lot of space in central London for one person to wander around looking at display cases.

 

 

 

I also used to like the Science Museum marine gallery, with it's excellent model collection. I have a feeling there was the bridge of a ship as well with wheel, engine room telegraph and so on. I believe they redeveloped that gallery to replace it with the computer section (which is actually very well done). Liked that when I went there several years ago.

There is an off-site store for the Science Museum at Wroughton Airfield in Wiltshire. There are a lot of exhibits held there, particularly ones that are too big to display in a London museum, such as a Lockheed Constellation and a D-H Trident, among others.  They used (and may still do, pre covid-19) to have open days, managed to go there once. Well worth a visit. probable the boat models have found their way there.

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I certainly cannot compete with 95-year old kit but my first "model railway" - more of a toy train really but they are still enthusiastically sought-after - was a Hornby O-gauge tinplate collection which I first received aged 4 and had bits added to at birthdays and Christmas for the next few years.  The track is long gone thanks to having spent too many summer days in the grass of various back gardens.  A few of the carriages and wagons also went when I had to slim down the household for migration to Australia.  Those were taken by a nephew who managed to achieve better than a laugh-in-the-face from which ever dealer he offered them to.  

 

I still have the first locomotive I was given which makes that all but 60 years old now.  It isn't in the finest of condition but it still runs well (albeit along the table-top these days) and has its original key for the clockwork mechanism.  I also still have a few of the original wagons from the same time.  

 

At perhaps another end of the scale was my large outdoor Penhayle Bay layout in Australia.  Built with very little previous knowledge, no skill and very much a headlong dive into the unknown I expected it might last five years.  I even started building a replacement.  In the end it not only lasted eleven years and endured all manner of weather and natural nuisances but when it came to dismantling it required a chain saw!  The thing was so solidly built that nothing else would get it apart and it would probably have lasted another 10 - 20 years had life not brought me back to home shores.  

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H&M Clipper and Commander (which I must have got in the 1970s I think) still going strong and running the layout when it's in dc mode.  Also got a Gaugemaster Combi for sidings and 009, etc. that's quite recent. They all work fine. 

 

Also H-D 3 rail, A4 is 62 years old now, plus other locos and stock, run very rarely but I do like to keep it in order!

Edited by railroadbill
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I was a bit disappointed, but not surprised, when my childhood train set stuff either didn't run at all or ran like a dog egg after 20 years in my parents' loft.

 

My Dad's old 1960ish tinplate Hornby loco won't run either, because my brother and I overwound the spring years ago.

 

Electrical machines can last a very long time if looked after, but I'm not sure being forgotten in a loft or indeed garage counts as "looked after".

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Did the early stuff really run as well as modern day stuff at slow speeds? I remember playing with my Dads Hornby Dublo as a kid and it was great rattling round but it did tend to be hard to run slowly for shunting. I know I thought my Hornby locos of the late 70’s were better at that although I loved the rattle of the tinplate. Dad still has his Dublo and it’s set up on our old 8x4 first layout he just replaced our track with Dublo and it’s still going but many times he used to remagnetise the motors and fix various bits n bobs of mechanisms. We replaced all the magnets about ten years ago and they still run well. 
I can only think three locos that died irrevocably due to mazak rot in the chassis, one Bachmann US and two of their QJ’s, even the QJs sold well on eBay as the buyer was going to replace the chassis!
I expect to do maintenance especially on metal locos as oil needs replacing and pins wear out. Many don’t get enough use to wear them out but get grease cleaned out and redone every few years. 

So I have Bing OO from 1923-4, 30’s Hornby, 50’s Dublo, 70’s Hornby and a right mix from the 80’s - today and they all work. I expect old plastic to be more brittle so I treat it gently but then again I handle all of the locos with care to protect them whether it’s fine detail or old coarse tinplate! 
Much like real railways and 7 ¼ inch stuff they wear and bits need replacing. Some of those full size ones were designed badly and need a major mod to get them sorted, that’s been true of a couple of model locos I have but even those have become well loved models. They’ve certainly lasted longer than some of my domestic appliances! ;) 

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Hmm. I seem to be slowly recycling most of what survives of my model railway stuff from the late 1970s. Admittedly the wagon and coach kits involve Modelstrip and a complete or partial reassembly, but the old Airfix 31 was successfully detailed and runs quite respectably. However the second-hand 37 always ran like a dog, and I have no intention of reusing that mechanism. 

 

On the other hand I'm afraid to try the old H&M controller I got second-hand from a school friend out in Australia  not long afterwards. I remember hearing that someone was electrocuted when they touched an old controller. The rubber insulation had perished, and the metal case was live at 240V. Since my old controller has a cable covered in fabric flex I don't want to take the risk. However the Gaugemaster 100M I bought about 25 years ago to replace it still gets used for the Boxfile without problems or any qualms

 

None of the track is anything like that vintage. But old commercial points are too coarse to suit me, and old RTR mechanisms weren't wonderful to start with.

 

There seems no reason why a locomotive treated with reasonable care and occasional maintenance shouldn't last for a very long time. We know a lot of models from the 1950s are still mechanically serviceable. 3mm modellers are still using Triang Brush 2s. Very few layouts demand the sort of sustained running that actually causes mechanisms to wear out.

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8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Someone with a degree in Media Studies from an ex Polytechnic

 

What nonsense. Many museum curators have postgraduate qualifications and some have PhDs. Moving swiftly on...

 

20 hours ago, newbryford said:

Expecting the likes of 1960s made H&M controllers to function as new when found in the back of a drawer after 50 years.

 

This does seem particularly odd, given that even most railway modellers would not expect any other piece of electrical or electronic equipment to simply last for an infinite time, especially without maintenance. Surely model railway items have a ‘design lifespan’ after which they are expected to wear out, like other products.

 

A related phenomenon seems to be the expectation that new products will work with very old ones (or ‘backwards compatibility’), to the point where people are irritated because, for instance, new points do not have deep enough flangeways to accommodate the ‘pizza-cutter’ wheels on old rolling stock.

 

From experience, from my 009 fleet the old Egger/Jouef locos are OK, nowhere near as good as the modern Minitrains stuff but very dependent on wear and maintenance as could be expected. However, they will at some point wear out completely without replacement of things like motor brushes, and it’s questionable whether I will be able to source replacements for these or whether it will be worth the effort, given that more modern locos run better anyway. In 00, certain Hornby 0-4-0 chassis seem to be pretty bad, regardless of age, use, being properly run in etc. etc. My Kato tram chassis-powered 009 locos seem to run less well after a couple of years but then are able to be revived by lubricating them.

 

Moving on to clockwork, I have owned several of the cheap 1970s/80s Hornby 00 clockwork starter locos, and a couple of similar locos from other manufacturers. These seem to continue working well without any maintenance, which I can only assume is because the technology in them is very simple, but also because they don’t wear out in the same way that electric motors do. Now I’m part way through restoring a 1950s 0 gauge Hornby clockwork loco, which is slightly different in that despite being knackered, it is all metal and can (up to a point) be completely stripped down and rebuilt in a way that I don’t think would be possible for modern plastic model trains.

 

14 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

modellers who always thing that the thing their layout needs is another shiny loco instead of a bit of investment in the basic infrastructure

 

To be fair, this applies almost exactly to some real railway companies as well. But let’s leave that for a different thread... :jester: 

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I suspect that much of the alleged poor slow running of old Dublo etc. is more a function of the controllers they're typically used with than any inherent issues with their mechs. After all, they've plenty of weight and the motor designs, while limited by all being 3-pole, are not terrible. Clean, properly lubricated and adjusted, and powered from something that's not an ancient resistance controller (even a basic, Darlington pair job is better) they should be capable of useable low speed, if not the "1hour to cover a yard" that some more sophisticated mechs can achieve. 

 

A problem with modern products seems to be that, even if you expect to replace components over time, and are capable of doing so, spares are harder, or indeed impossible, to get, and difficult to improvise. 

Edited by PatB
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Whats probably a better question, is not long can the old stuff last, but how long can todays stuff last.

 

Lima will last forever, no manufacturer will ever replace the sheer quantity of liveries. 

Edited by adb968008
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7 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

It couldn't be that people's tastes change? Or that they rotate the collection? I know Birmingham has a huge warehouse full of stuff that moves through the museum. Some of it, like the old computers, will be of limited interest, but still valuable. 

 

Just compare the "Thinktank" to the old Science Museum in Newhall St. (the only computer was a fox and goose machine made out of telephony parts.)

Chalk and cheese museums for a different age.

I used to regularly visit the old site and was fascinated by some of the exhibits. Most aren't in the new place.

I have been to Think Tank once, I wasn't impressed, there was IMHO only one really good exhibit (Guess:jester:) plus a few other reasonable ones.

They even gave away the Orchestrion that used to play in the old place, the Watt engine doesn't pump canal water around anymore etc.

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