LMS Reverse Stanier Brake Van

[westernviscount]

Afternoon folks.

 

Some help please. I am currently attempting to use a Dapol LMS Brake Van as the basis of a Stanier Reverse version...

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagonphotographs/h2f226a74

I would like to model it as a vac fitted vehicle, operating circa 1968-72 as a an engineers vehicle. 

 

Please advise on what livery you would suggest for a vehicle such as this in the period mentioned. 

 

Here is progress so far (ignore the roof) ...

 

[Trog]

There were according to LMS Wagons Vol1 no vacuum fitted vans of this type. However the last 50 of the 150 built were vacuum piped (296406 being one such).

[westernviscount]

Thanks @Trog. I have only seen pics of these in unfitted guise. Could I ask, if there are pics of these vehicles with vac pipes does that mean they were piped through or were converted? Or neither?? Forgive me but proto knowledge isn't my strong point. 

[sandwich station]

Can you tell me what the reverse bit means please?

[westernviscount]

Hi @sandwich station. My limited understanding is this...

 

The first link is of an LMS Stanier Brake Van

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagonphotographs/h1f01dca2

 

Now here is a Stanier reverse. Note the doors are in the reverse position to the first one. 

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagonphotographs/h2f226a74

 

What I dont understand is the reverse van looks like an older type but has a name that would suggest it proceeds the "normal" one. 

 

Answers I feel will follow below!!! GOD BLESS RMWEB ;-) 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by westernviscount

[SHMD]

I think it is referring to the door orifices, (being over directly over the axle boxes, instead of being at the extreme ends of the vehicle), on the verandas.

 

 

Kev.

 

[westernviscount]

...and in model form...

 

Reverse in the foreground.

[The Johnster]

Very few brake vans of any sort were ever vacuum braked; there is generally no need for a brake which can be applied by the driver on the loco when a guard with route knowledge is riding in the van with a handbrake that he can apply and full competence with regard to where, when, and how hard to apply it.  Many vans were ‘piped through’, but neither the LMS nor BR liveries made a distinction between vacuum braked and vacuum piped vehicles.  
 

The pipe is painted red on a vacuum braked vehicle, and white on a through piped one. 

[westernviscount]

7 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Very few brake vans of any sort were ever vacuum braked; there is generally no need for a brake which can be applied by the driver on the loco when a guard with route knowledge is riding in the van with a handbrake that he can apply and full competence with regard to where, when, and how hard to apply it.  Many vans were ‘piped through’, but neither the LMS nor BR liveries made a distinction between vacuum braked and vacuum piped vehicles.  
 

The pipe is painted red on a vacuum braked vehicle, and white on a through piped one. 

Thanks @The Johnster. Sooooo, it is plausible to have a grey painted van with a vac pipe painted white? 

[Aire Head]

12 minutes ago, westernviscount said:

Thanks @The Johnster. Sooooo, it is plausible to have a grey painted van with a vac pipe painted white? 

 

My understanding is that Piped Vehicles were Bauxite.

[westernviscount]

6 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

My understanding is that Piped Vehicles were Bauxite.

Yes, that was and is my understanding as I have re-read @The Johnster's reply and note the no difference between piped and vac fitted livery bit!! 

[hmrspaul]

This one has been repainted, a long time before, in departmental olive green. The brake pipes are handed - which is unusual for the LMS as I managed to get both sides https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsbrakevan/e27049f93 and  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsbrakevan/e2f226a74

 

They were, of course, earlier than the Stanier vans. 

 

Paul

[The Johnster]

Under BR post 31/5/48, when the new standard liveries were introduced, fitted and piped through goods and mineral vehicles were painted in bauxite livery, including goods brake vans.  As stated, the main difference was that the brake pipe was painted red if the vehicle was fitted and white if it was piped through, and this applied to all bauxite liveried goods vehicles, including brake vans.  
 

A piped through vehicle could not be branded ‘XP’ to work in passenger trains, even a brake van.  All brake vans, whether unfitted grey liveried, piped or fitted bauxite, had lamp irons for side lamps and thus could be used on part fitted and unfitted trains. 
 

This is not to say that there were not considerable variations in the actual colour of the bauxite and grey, especially in the late 40s and early 50s when the post war austerity regulations were still in force and paint, among other things, was not always easy to obtain, and the wagon repair shops had to make do with whatever they could get.  
 

But no, you can’t have a piped vehicle painted grey, not as a BR livery anyway.  Of course, earlier liveries lasted for a long time in some cases before eventually being repainted, some vehicles ‘missing out’ a livery altogether.  It was common up to the mid 60s to see sidings full of withdrawn wagons of all sorts awaiting ‘disposal’ in

big 4 liveries under layers of filth, some going back to the 20s.and occasionally even further, along with 7 plank minerals in private owner liveries.  It is a tragedy for us that this was before the time of HMRS Paul and his camera; at the time, wasting expensive film on this rubbish was unthinkable!  
 

To be fair to enthusiast photographers of that period and frame of mind, there were plenty of fast disappearing locos to record, and even the massive cull of pregrouping passenger stock went largely unrecorded. 

[westernviscount]

Now then chaps, I have a decision to make here. I received some bits from Dave Franks this morning so I can go either way with tgis one. 

 

@hmrspaul when do you feel this example you show was piped through and painted Olive green? It looks in places on the paint work that bauxite might be showing through. Would anyone agree with this? 

 

Am I right in thinking Olive green arrived in the late 60's but would have been most common throughout the 70's? 

[Trog]

17 hours ago, westernviscount said:

Hi @sandwich station. My limited understanding is this...

 

What I dont understand is the reverse van looks like an older type but has a name that would suggest it proceeds the "normal" one. 

 

Answers I feel will follow below!!! GOD BLESS RMWEB ;-) 

 

 

 

The first 150 vans as stated by others have the drop bar for the opening where you descend to the track and the section of waist height side panelling laid out the opposite way round to the later vans.

 

Presumably as there were about 2,000 vans built to several similar designs of the later layout it was thought of as normal or standard, and the earlier vans were hence considered reversed in comparison.

[hmrspaul]

On 28/10/2020 at 10:51, westernviscount said:

Now then chaps, I have a decision to make here. I received some bits from Dave Franks this morning so I can go either way with tgis one. 

 

@hmrspaul when do you feel this example you show was piped through and painted Olive green? It looks in places on the paint work that bauxite might be showing through. Would anyone agree with this? 

 

Am I right in thinking Olive green arrived in the late 60's but would have been most common throughout the 70's? 

Olive green was introduced for departmental wagons in 1963, following a few brief years of Gulf red being used. It went on being used well into the 1980s. 

 

Paul