"Foreign" wagons - How many would you see?

[richbrummitt]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, in the sense that these were wagons that were not part of the pooling scheme. This marking (and its equivalent on other companies' wagons) was used to indicate such wagons, which were generally specialized types, including vaccum-braked wagons - of which the Great Western had a higher proportion than did the LMS or LNER, I believe.

 

Tatlow gives the proportion of each group's wagons in the pool at grouping:

 

               total        pooled (approx)      

LMS     303,797    217,000       71%

LNER   284,488    170,000       60%

GWR      87,432      65,000       75%

SR          35,121      29,000       82%

[P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 2005).]

 

At first sight, this gives the lie to the Great Western's reluctance to pool. I think the LNER's low figure can be accounted for by the large number of ex-NER hopper wagons dedicated to pit-to-staithe coal traffic - and correspondingly the low number of PO wagons in the north east; the Southern percentage is high since that company did not have so many special wagons, as it did not serve any major manufacturing areas.

 

In the directors report (GWR) for the year ended Dec 1920 the numbers were: 

 

 

that doesn’t show what was NCU within a category though. 

[Compound2632]

48 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

In the directors report (GWR) for the year ended Dec 1920 the numbers were: 

 

Showing a 4:1 ratio of opens to vans at this date, since that subject was also under discussion.

 

I'm intrigued by the 1,000-odd wagons of under 8 tons capacity, most of which had been withdrawn during 1920, though 100 suddenly appear in the mineral wagon category - perhaps opens reassigned? As far as my reading has taken me, wagons built as far back as the 1860s were of 8 tons capacity, often being upgraded to 9 tons or 10 tons with new axleboxes and bearings, often downgraded back to 8 tons, but I've not come across any instances of downgrading to 7 tons. 

 

It's not clear if loco coal wagons are included here - the number of mineral wagons seems too low to cover that. The phenomenal increase in special wagons requires some explanation! It's not a misprint - I've checked the adding up...

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, burgundy said:

It would be interesting to check the working timetables, but my understanding is that much of the freight transferred onto the Brighton was handed over at Lilley Bridge on the West London line. Other than for the "foreign" coal depots around South London, through working was introduced as a result of traffic levels in the First World War. Coal trains for the south coast were scheduled from Lillie Bridge in the small hours and the main line south must have had a procession of coal trains trundling down before the morning rush.

 

That works for traffic from Willeseden - i.e. off the LNWR and North London:

 

 

but not for traffic off the Midland, I think, for which the Midland's own Acton Wells branch to the N&SWJR is the route indicated on the Midland map I linked to. (Double checking that map, I realise that the route via Kentish Town, Met Widened lines, and Loughborough Junction is also indicated for Midland goods and mineral trains to Battersea Wharf.) The routing via Hendon and Battersea is confirmed by wagon labels in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection, e.g. Item No. 14457; this is one of a batch from wagons consigned to Hayling Island, including his one from the NSR via the Midland - Burton, Hendon, and Battersea, Item No. 14497.

[webbcompound]

Re GWR wagons 1919/1920

 

Might not be a misprint, but if it was an error say for 161, which is only an increase of 57 wagons (and so total also in error because of just adding the erroneous figure. This could pretty well match the overall increase in wagon stock of around 1300 wagons).  Perhaps an increase of up to 60 special wagons might be accounted for by the return of specially built heavy bogie flats from the War Office. Finding a reason for building 1500 special wagons in a period of reduced trade immediately post war is otherwise a little difficult.

Edited October 30, 2020 by webbcompound

[Nearholmer]

It does sound as if Battersea was the ‘concentration point’ for MR wagons To/from the LBSCR at this date. With GWR and LNWR being hoovered-up direct off the WLER. If so, very inefficient, so no wonder direct trains to Norwood had to be instituted.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, webbcompound said:

Re GWR wagons 1919/1920

 

Might not be a misprint, but if it was an error say for 161, which is only an increase of 57 wagons (and so total also in error because of just adding the erroneous figure. This could pretty well match the overall increase in wagon stock of around 1300 wagons).  Perhaps an increase of up to 60 special wagons might be accounted for by the return of specially built heavy bogie flats from the War Office. Finding a reason for building 1500 special wagons in a period of reduced trade immediately post war is otherwise a little difficult.

 

My suspicion is that wagons have been re-classified. The 1919 figure seems far too low.

 

11 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It does sound as if Battersea was the ‘concentration point’ for MR wagons To/from the LBSCR at this date. With GWR and LNWR being hoovered-up direct off the WLER. If so, very inefficient, so no wonder direct trains to Norwood had to be instituted.

 

That depends on the amount of traffic. I suspect there would well have been enough traffic off either the MR or LNWR to justify several trip workings from Hendon and Willesden per day.

 

I suspect Brighton engines might have gone to either to collect; LSWR engines certainly went to Willesden. In May 1899 a through Willesden to Southampton goods train headed by Drummond 0-6-0 No. 695 came to grief between Camberley and Frimley. This was a daytime train, leaving Willesden at 11:42am, so was taking the back route through Ascot, Aldershot, and Alton, leaving the main line clear for passenger traffic. (The driver's evidence indicates a conditional stop at Ascot, not made on this occasion, presumably to put off wagons for the Wokingham and Reading line.) Pretty much everything was off the rails, so Col. Marindin's report gives full details of the rolling stock. (There's also a plan of the wreckage with the wagons numbered, unfortunately these numbers don't quite tie up with stock list.)  There was a LSWR brake van at each end but of the 28 wagons, six were LNWR, four Caledonian, eleven Great Eastern, three LT&SR, one Great Central, two North Stafford, and one from the Ellerbrook Colliery near Wigan. Not a "home" wagon in sight! All were opens except for five of the Great Eastern wagons, four covered goods and one cattle wagon.

 

This makes an interesting comparison with the Caledonian train at Gretna in 1901, discussed earlier. Both are long-distance goods trains connecting a major goods station on the home system with the LNWR main line, so LNWR wagons and wagons of companies in connection - CR and NSR - are hardly surprising; on another day I'd bet on seeing some L&YR wagons in this train. Both also include some traffic coming in at right angles, so to speak; at Gretna, there were NER wagons making their way back to Newcastle; here, we have wagons from the GER and LT&SR, which have presumably made their way round by the North London and been marshalled into this train at Willesden. I wonder where these wagons originated - the docks, or inland?

 

[richbrummitt]

2 hours ago, webbcompound said:

Re GWR wagons 1919/1920

 

Might not be a misprint, but if it was an error ...

The picture is of a primary source so misprint or error it is what was sent out prior to the 1921 AGM due in Feb. It does seem a very large increase. 
 

The traffic handled by type is also included on a later page. Whilst not exactly on topic for this thread I’m sure it would be interesting reading for the contributors here. I’ll post it up later when I’m back from the zoo. 

[burgundy]

5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

It does sound as if Battersea was the ‘concentration point’ for MR wagons To/from the LBSCR at this date. With GWR and LNWR being hoovered-up direct off the WLER. If so, very inefficient, so no wonder direct trains to Norwood had to be instituted.

Back in the days when discs were floppy – and 5¼” in diameter – I decided to teach myself how to use the cutting edge data base programme on our office desk-top network, which you accessed from the blank screen with the command .db2. By happy coincidence, I was able to borrow a copy of the LB&SCR working timetable for October 1913 to May 1914 and I listed all the goods services that appeared in the timetable. I then learned how to sort the data in lots of different ways and wrote it up for the Brighton Circular for a series of articles that appeared between June 83 and October 84. The floppy disc has long since gone and even the printouts have probably been used to light the fire, but the articles survive and I dug them out to illuminate this thread.

For a typical weekday (i.e some early morning trains did not run on Mondays and some trains were specific to local market days), within the London area 12 trains started at Lillie Bridge, 14 at Willow Walk, 16 at New Cross, 19 at Battersea and 35 at Norwood. For comparison, 31 started at Brighton.

Within the London area, there are both local pick up services and what look like exchange workings between the main yards. These include the following LBSCR services

Battersea to Norwood 5 + 3Q

Willow Walk to Norwood 2

Lillie Bridge to Norwood 6 + 3Q

Norwood to Willow Walk 1

Norwood to Lillie Bridge 6 + 1Q

Norwood to Battersea 4 + 2Q

Lillie Bridge to Battersea 1

Battersea to Lillie Bridge 3

New Cross to Norwood 4Q

Q denotes trains running as required

The timetable also shows the following path, which I assume is a single working.

New Cross – Old Kent Road – Peckham Rye(#) – East Dulwich – Knights Hill(*) – Tulse Hill – Streatham Hill – Tulse Hill – Peckham Rye(#) – Knights Hill(*) – Lillie Bridge – Knights Hill(*) – Peckham Rye(#) – New Cross. The interesting point about this working is that it ticks off a couple of the “foreign” goods yards around South London.

* LNWR

# LNWR and MR

Paths for foreign workings included

Lillie Bridge to Battersea

Great Northern 9 + 13Q

Midland 7 + 7Q

LSWR 8

and

Battersea to Lillie Bridge

Great Northern 6 + 17Q

Midland 5 + 9Q

LSWR 7

also

Whitechapel to New Cross 6 +1Q

New Cross to Whitechapel 7 +1Q

I hope that this is of interest!

Best wishes

Eric

 

[Nearholmer]

That is brilliant. Thank you.

 

Now a confession: I had a virtually pristine copy of the LBSCR "Special Wartime" WTT, dated I think 1917, in a box with several other old WTTs, and (not in the same league, but valuable to me) all my "spotting notebooks", and I accidentally threw the box away in a pre-house-move clear-out!

 

If I hadn't made that stupid mistake, we could check what difference The War made to goods flows. What I do recall is that The War led to a great simplification of  passenger service patterns in East Sussex, I think doing away with all the mad re-marshalling of train portions at Eridge, although that might have finished a bit before The War.

 

 

[Nick Holliday]

5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

That is brilliant. Thank you.

 

Now a confession: I had a virtually pristine copy of the LBSCR "Special Wartime" WTT, dated I think 1917, in a box with several other old WTTs, and (not in the same league, but valuable to me) all my "spotting notebooks", and I accidentally threw the box away in a pre-house-move clear-out!

 

If I hadn't made that stupid mistake, we could check what difference The War made to goods flows. What I do recall is that The War led to a great simplification of  passenger service patterns in East Sussex, I think doing away with all the mad re-marshalling of train portions at Eridge, although that might have finished a bit before The War.

 

 

Dragonwheel Books published a reprint of the May 1st 1918 LBSCR Goods Working Book, sadly no longer available.  Too much information and not enough energy to reproduce Eric's analysis now, but at first glance not a lot has changed. although there are through LNWR workings to Redhill and Three Bridges, as well as Norwood, and there are other GNR worked trains are from Ferme Park to Streatham Common, and the SECR have some through trains between Redhill and Willesden over LBSC lines.

[Brassey]

5 hours ago, burgundy said:

The interesting point about this working is that it ticks off a couple of the “foreign” goods yards around South London.

 

From the Railway Magazine November 1960:

 

"For many years the wagons for

Knights Hill have been collected from

Lillie Bridge Sidings on the West London

Extension Railway. (It is probable that

this arrangement goes back to L.B.S.C.R.

days as that company's Appendix for

1922 gives instructions for the working

of the yard by " Brighton " locomotives.)

 

The " foreign " depot at Peckham Rye, opened in 1891, was of unusual interest,

because it represented an unlikely partnership

of the L.N.W. and Midland

companies. At this point, the L.B.S.C.R.

is on a viaduct, and arrival and departure

roads each accommodating 20 wagons

were provided. at viaduct level. Access

at the station end was controlled by

Pcckham Road " A " Box, and at the

Queens Road end by a ground frame.

It would have been quite possible to

follow the pattern of the Midland yards

of the 1870s, and to have provided coal

drops from viaduct level, but instead a

turntable was used to place wagons on a

hoist which lowered them to ground

level. This was worked hydraulically,

the water pressure of 750 lb. per sq. in.

being generated by a steam engine. The

last boiler to be provided was of the

locomotive type. and was overhauled at

Crewe before being sent to Peckham in

1908. About 1925, the steam engine was

replaced by an electric motor. Down in

the yard, there were five more turntables

and four sidings to accommodate 73

wagons.

Peckham Rye handled coal only…As mentioned above,

the coal from the L.N.W.R. was worked

by the daily train from Lillie Bridge.

The Midland coal was collected from

Battersea, which it reached either via the

Metropolitan Widened Lines or via Kew

and Barnes. "

[Nick Holliday]

12 hours ago, Brassey said:

 

From the Railway Magazine November 1960:

 

Peckham Rye handled coal only…As mentioned above, the coal from the L.N.W.R. was worked by the daily train from Lillie Bridge.

The Midland coal was collected from Battersea, which it reached either via the Metropolitan Widened Lines or via Kew and Barnes. "

Further to this and Eric's notes, I have had a quick look at the 1918 timetable, (there may be minor errors) and picked out the various exchange traffic, rather than the LBSCR purely internal workings. (I have assumed the return workings would have been similar)

From Lillie Bridge/Kensington to Norwood

LBSC hauled 12 + 4 Q, with one going forward to Horsham and another through to Brighton

LNWR 2 There were also through trains:

LNWR trains;  1 each to Redhill and Three Bridges;(35 loaded wagons max and brake, and 40 empties and brake on return)

GWR 1 from Old Oak Common to Three Bridges; (35 loaded wagons max and brake, and 40 empties and brake on return)

SE&CR 1 train to Redhill via Balham

Arrivals at Battersea (via Stewarts Lane Junction SECR)

LBSC 1

Midland Goods 2 + 1Q; Coal 4 + 5Q; Mineral 1Q

GN Goods 4 + 8Q; Coal 4 + 5Q

Arrivals at Battersea (via SW metals and Longhedge Junction)

LSWR 2

Midland Coal 10

Arrivals at New Cross from GER East London Line

GER 8 + 3Q

Arrivals from GNR (From Ferme Park/Hornsey via Ludgate & Tulse Hill to LBSC)

GNR 6 to Streatham Common and 1 to Norwood via Crystal Palace (these last being hauled by LBSC locos from Tulse Hill and restricted to 24 empties and brake)

Note that GNR trains from Ferme Park were restricted to a load of 20 (loaded wagons or equivalents?) and from Hornsey depending on loco, 19-23 unassisted, or 26-31 if banked up Ludgate Hill, and 24 empties and a brake on return.

SECR trains, Redhill - Willesden/Shepherds Bush could handle 40 empties or equal thereto, northbound, and southbound a C 0-6-0 could take 45 loaded or equal thereto, including 20 ton brake van, or an O1 0-6-0 could take 38.

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Nick Holliday
Corrections to routes and extra GNR trains and infoadded

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Arrivals at Battersea (via Longhedge SECR)

LBSC 1

Midland Goods 2 + 1Q; Coal 4 + 5Q; Mineral 1Q

GN Goods 4 + 8Q; Coal 4 + 5Q

Arrivals at Battersea (via SW metals)

LSWR 2

Midland Coal 10

Arrivals at New Cross from GER East London Line

GER 8 + 3Q

 

"Via SW metals" is clear enough; for the Midland that's from Hendon via Acton Wells etc. "Via Longhedge SECR" presumably means the route via the Widened Lines, Loughborough Junction, Wandsworth Road, and Stewarts Lane Junction; Longhedge Junction is on the western corner of the triangle of LCDR/SECR lines but I can't imagine there would actually have been a reversal. The routes for Midland trains are as expected, see @Nick Holliday's correction to his post. 

Eat pasta, Gravelly Hill Interchange:

 

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Compound2632

[Nick Holliday]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

"Via SW metals" is clear enough; for the Midland that's from Hendon via Acton Wells etc. "Via Longhedge SECR" presumably means the route via the Widened Lines, Loughborough Junction, Wandsworth Road, and Stewarts Lane Junction; Longhedge Junction is on the western corner of the triangle of LCDR/SECR lines but I can't imagine there would actually have been a reversal.

 

Sorry.  I mis-read the timetable in my haste.  The ex-SW traffic was that which went past Longhedge Junction. The rest of it came directly off the SECR, with a passing time for Stewarts Lane Junction.

I've edited my earlier post to suit, and added a few extra trains and info on train loads.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Nick Holliday

[Compound2632]

To balance my Midland / LNWR predjudice, here's some evidence of the Great Northen's traffic south of the river, in a photo from Mike Morant's collection, showing E6 No. 408 Binderton on a mostly mineral train off the Great Northern passing through Norbury en route to Norwood yard:

 

 

[Embedded link.]

 

The locomotive is in original condition and goods green livery, dating it between December 1904 and February 1911. As the caption notes, there are six Great Northern mineral wagons at the head of the train. The leading wagon is not Charrington but Dinnington Main Colliery. That colliery first produced coal in 1905; the photo is tagged 1906. This leaves me with a bit of a puzzle because it appears to have been without a railway connection until the opening of the South Yorkshire Joint Railway on 1 January 1909; possibly the spur from the GC & Midland Joint Line was opened earlier.

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Some Goods Department documents to look up once the Midland Railway Study Centre is accessible:

 

Item Number: 17760

Category: Goods Department Document

An unnumbered Midland Railway Goods Manager's circular dated 14 April 1903 regarding the loading of NER goods wagons home with light loads and arrangements for goods traffic to Darlington.
Print Ref: G 32-1,200-4/03.

 

Item Number: 17764

Category: Goods Manager's Circular (Numbered)

Circular No:- 2178
Date:- NOVEMBER 28TH, 1903.
Title:- LOADING OF FOREIGN WAGONS HOME WITH LIGHT LOADS.

 

Item Number: 17778

Category: Goods Manager's Circular (Numbered)

Circular No:- 2256
Date:- JULY 7TH, 1905.
Title:- LOADING OF GOODS TRAFFIC, IN LOTS OF LESS THAN A TON, TO NORTH EASTERN STATIONS.

 

Item Number: 17800

Category: Goods Manager's Circular (Numbered)

Circular No:- 2430
Date:- MARCH 29TH, 1909.
Title:- TRAFFIC FOR CAMBRIDGE, AND LOADING OF GOODS TRAFFIC, IN LOTS OF LESS THAN A TON, TO NORTH EASTERN STATIONS.

 

[Compound2632]

And also:

 

Item Number: 14263

Category: Goods Department Document

A complete bundle of 56 goods invoices covering the inwards traffic at Edwalton for the month of November 1912. It is possible to glean from this archive a very good picture of the type of goods traffic dealt with at a typical country wayside station before the first world war.

 

 

Item Number: 14264

Category: Goods Department Document

A complete bundle of 67 goods invoices covering both inwards and outwards traffic at Edwalton for the month of February 1921. It is possible to glean from this archive a very good picture of the type of goods traffic dealt with at a typical country wayside station towards the end of the pre-grouping era.

[Compound2632]

Or how about these:

 

Item Number: 28951

Category: Goods Department Document

Large ledger form No. G.B.39 size 13½"x8½" bound in black cloth with tan coloured cloth spine, entitled 'M.R. Tranship Goods' believed to be from Skipton station. Lists originating and destination stations, description of goods and consignee's name. An example is two barrels of stout from Dublin to Colne. Dates from 21st May 1898 to 2nd July 1898.

 

Item Number: 28953

Category: Goods Department Document

Large ledger form No. G.B.39 size 13½"x9" bound in light brown cloth entitled 'M.R. Tranship Goods'. Used at Skipton. Lists originating and destination stations, description of goods and consignee's name. Entries date from 12th July 1895 to 28th August 1895.

 

I'm getting the itch...

[Brassey]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

And also:

 

Item Number: 14263

Category: Goods Department Document

A complete bundle of 56 goods invoices covering the inwards traffic at Edwalton for the month of November 1912. It is possible to glean from this archive a very good picture of the type of goods traffic dealt with at a typical country wayside station before the first world war.

 

 

This might prove quite interesting...I wonder if something similar exists at the LNWR Society Study Centre.  56 invoices is less than 2 deliveries a day which gives a rough idea of the volume

[Tom Burnham]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The leading wagon is not Charrington but Dinnington Main Colliery. That colliery first produced coal in 1905; the photo is tagged 1906. This leaves me with a bit of a puzzle because it appears to have been without a railway connection until the opening of the South Yorkshire Joint Railway on 1 January 1909; possibly the spur from the GC & Midland Joint Line was opened earlier.

I have a bit of an interest in that, because my grandfather moved from the South Normanton/Blackwell area to Dinnington to work at the new pit.  According to B J Elliott's "The South Yorkshire Joint Railway" (Oakwood Press, 1972), the Great Central/Midland joint line was opened in early October 1905, and construction of the SYJR and Dinnington Colliery sidings began in Nov 1905.  The Colliery connection and Dinnington station seem to have been completed in early 1906, and construction continued northwards.  Incidentally, once fully open, all the five owning companies ran their own goods trains - the Midland and the GC from Brancliffe Junction (near Shireoaks) north to Dinnington and Maltby.  The NER, Great Northern and L&Y ran trains through to Dinnington from the northern end of the line.  The rather sparse passenger service was mostly run by the GC in the early days.

[Compound2632]

43 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

According to B J Elliott's "The South Yorkshire Joint Railway" (Oakwood Press, 1972), the Great Central/Midland joint line was opened in early October 1905, and construction of the SYJR and Dinnington Colliery sidings began in Nov 1905.  The Colliery connection and Dinnington station seem to have been completed in early 1906, and construction continued northwards.  Incidentally, once fully open, all the five owning companies ran their own goods trains - the Midland and the GC from Brancliffe Junction (near Shireoaks) north to Dinnington and Maltby.  The NER, Great Northern and L&Y ran trains through to Dinnington from the northern end of the line.  The rather sparse passenger service was mostly run by the GC in the early days.

 

So that fits with a summer 1906 date for the photo but does raise the question of why this Dinnington wagon is in company with GN wagons, if the GN's access via the SYJtR wasn't available until 1909.

[Poggy1165]

I think a lot would depend on where you were. Somewhere around a Manchester hub (for example) loads. At the end of the Boggington-on-the-Marsh branch, very few, except for the odd through load. (Perhaps a giant log intended to replace the roof beams of the local manor house or something like that. I am thinking of a photo of a GW wagon I once saw bearing such a load to Bakewell for Haddon Hall. You wouldn't tranship a great big log, would you?)

 

I remember reading that the LNWR sent a "demurrage" train from Manchester up to Carlisle each day and it was vital it was in Carlisle for a certain time. I expect these would be mainly Scottish wagons - with perhaps the odd M&C one?

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Poggy1165 said:

I think a lot would depend on where you were. Somewhere around a Manchester hub (for example) loads.

 

One would like to get beyond speculation to evidence. The Birmingham photos I linked to near the start of this thread showed, pre-Great War (i.e. pre-pooling), an overwhelming majority of LNWR wagons at a LNWR goods station and of Midland wagons at a Midland goods station. Can we produce any photos of Manchester goods stations for that period?

[Poggy1165]

I would suggest the LNWR demurrage train to Carlisle is reasonable evidence. This was cited in an article by a LNWR driver who actually worked the trains in question.

 

But in addition, Manchester was served by the LNWR, L&Y, Midland, GCR, GNR, CLC, and Great Western. That is, all these companies ran trains into it. The GN and GW did not enjoy their own metals in the area. GN trains came in by both MR and GC routes. GW trains came in mainly by the LNWR, but some GW wagons will certainly have come via the GC as I will explain in a minute. So that's at least seven lots of wagons coming into the area in train loads, even if we make the unlikely assumption that no foreign wagons were conveyed. 

 

There were not only a number of joint lines in the area, but also significant running by one company over another's metals. The best example might be the Midland's use of the L&Y, which included a very significant traffic (several trains per day) from Ancoats to Carlisle. It's scarcely fanciful to suggest these will have brought Scottish wagons to the area. They will certainly have provided the extensive sight of MR wagons at LY locations, albeit primarily on the main lines.

 

There were also transfer workings. The GC and LNWR operated such an exchange between Ashburys and Ordsall Lane, but this also involved GW wagons. This was because Ashburys was one of only three locations (Banbury and Aylesbury being the others) where the GC exchanged wagons with the GW.

 

The GC operated at least one daily through goods train to Whitemoor. It would be astonishing if this did not result in GE wagons appearing as there was a very extensive fruit and flower traffic from East Anglia to Manchester, and it would be surprising if most of it was not carried in GE wagons. Knowing the MR as I do, I am about 99% confident that they would also have taken this traffic into Ancoats - but I lack factual data, not being involved in studying MR goods traffic. From local history I do know that traffic of this sort was carted from Ancoats to the nearby Shudehill market. Did it all come in MR wagons? Would there be none from the GE or M&GN?

 

The Cambrian (of all people) had a Goods Agent in Manchester, situated in Chorlton, where the local station was CLC. Cambrian traffic certainly implies at least some Cambrian wagons in the area. 

 

Photographs? Well I could show you quite a few of Guide Bridge with any number of different company wagons on display. If anything, GC wagons are in a minority! The snag is, how representative are they? Firstly, most were taken post Great War, so pooling may be in play. The second thing is that most show the area around the tranship shed, which was located within camera range of the east end of the platforms, the natural locus for people to go to take photos of engines. Given the total mileage of sidings at the place, this is like taking one person's political opinion to represent a town of 25,000. 

 

 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Poggy1165 said:

I would suggest the LNWR demurrage train to Carlisle is reasonable evidence. This was cited in an article by a LNWR driver who actually worked the trains in question.

 

One train per day, returning at most 60 foreign wagons - which would be a drop in the ocean for the total number of wagons in and out of Manchester per day. But of course if you're modelling the LNWR main line north of Wigan and have a hankering for Scottish wagons!

 

12 minutes ago, Poggy1165 said:

But in addition, Manchester was served by the LNWR, L&Y, Midland, GCR, GNR, CLC, and Great Western. That is, all these companies ran trains into it. The GN and GW did not enjoy their own metals in the area. GN trains came in by both MR and GC routes. GW trains came in mainly by the LNWR, but some GW wagons will certainly have come via the GC as I will explain in a minute. So that's at least seven lots of wagons coming into the area in train loads, even if we make the unlikely assumption that no foreign wagons were conveyed. 

 

But each of these companies had their own goods stations, to and from which most traffic would be conveyed in their own wagons:

 

 

Missing from the RCH map is the Great Western's goods station, since that was owned by the LNWR - the Great Western had exclusive use of part of Liverpool Road - the original Liverpool & Manchester terminus.

 

Out on the road, one would see a greater variety of wagons, especially as you say on the CLC - each sandwiched between the relevant company's engine and brake. Before the opening of the Dore & Totley line, both Midland and Great Northern goods trains ran over the MS&L main line; afterwards, I gather the Great Northern trains migrated to the Dore & Totley. 

 

I'm not saying that there wouldn't be a wide variety of foreign wagons, rather that the home company wagons would always be the majority, certainly for the larger companies - particularly the LNWR and Midland, with their nationwide reach. Foreign wagons would need to be there for a reason: specific traffic flows...

 

28 minutes ago, Poggy1165 said:

The GC operated at least one daily through goods train to Whitemoor. It would be astonishing if this did not result in GE wagons appearing as there was a very extensive fruit and flower traffic from East Anglia to Manchester, and it would be surprising if most of it was not carried in GE wagons. Knowing the MR as I do, I am about 99% confident that they would also have taken this traffic into Ancoats - but I lack factual data, not being involved in studying MR goods traffic. From local history I do know that traffic of this sort was carted from Ancoats to the nearby Shudehill market. Did it all come in MR wagons? Would there be none from the GE or M&GN?

 

... yes indeed: 

 

 

 

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But would this traffic have travelled in the M&GN's dual-fitted fruit vans, of which there were 45, but I suspect that Midland vehicles were also used. I can't now locate a photo I saw not so long ago of a line of Midland fruit vans being loaded at what was almost certainly a M&GN location.

38 minutes ago, Poggy1165 said:

Photographs? Well I could show you quite a few of Guide Bridge with any number of different company wagons on display. If anything, GC wagons are in a minority! The snag is, how representative are they? Firstly, most were taken post Great War, so pooling may be in play. The second thing is that most show the area around the tranship shed, which was located within camera range of the east end of the platforms, the natural locus for people to go to take photos of engines. Given the total mileage of sidings at the place, this is like taking one person's political opinion to represent a town of 25,000. 

 

The trouble is that there are many more post-Great War photos than pre-Great War. Simply compare the two photos I linked to earlier of Birmingham Central Goods, one 1890s, the other 1920s:

Post-Great War, pooling is very definitely in play. What I find really interesting is trying to understand the pre-Great War period. 

 

A good place to dig around for information on goods services in that period is the moribund Basilica Fields website - since that discusses an area where there were to be found the goods trains and goods stations of as many companies as in Manchester.