"Foreign" wagons - How many would you see?

[Compound2632]

32 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

Oh look: The verandah is towards the engines!

 

Well, yes, I forget exactly what I said but the onus is on those who believe that GW brake vans always ran verandah trailing to explain how they were turned.

[Ravenser]

4 hours ago, bbishop said:

 

We have to be careful with numbering systems.  So Marlborough College wagon no. 64 wasn't their 64th mineral wagon but probably the 64th entry in the asset register.  Likewise Thomas Styles of Long Ditton numbered a wagon 1901 because it was supplied in April of that year.

 

It would be cheapest for a merchant to provide his own wagon.  An alternative would be for the colliery to supply the coal (paying for supply but avoiding lease charges).  Of course, if he had "forgotten" to pay previous invoices, he would get a factor (eg. Stephenson Clarke) to supply.  Bill

 

 

Interesting question...

 

Stephenson Clarke and Cory Bros were (and possibly still are) major coastal shipping companies. That presumably would be for coal from South Wales and the North East.

 

Would they have run their own wagon fleets in S. Wales?? Is there perhaps some basis to Hornby knocking out their ancient "Felix Pole" N32 21T mineral in S.C. and Cory liveries?

 

(Put another way - on what terms were the coal factors doing business with S Wales collieries? Ex works (we take it at the colliery and moving it down to the docks is our problem. We have a wagonfleet) or FOB ("free on board" - title passes "at the ship's rail" : colliery to arrange transport down to the docks and tipped into ship's hold from colliery's end-door wagon) 

 

Coal merchants were apparently notorious for using wagons as warehousing. This would have been no more popular with the colliery (who wanted the wagon back so they could use it as a stock holding facility on-site) than it was with the railway companies

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

7 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Is there perhaps some basis to Hornby knocking out their ancient "Felix Pole" N32 21T mineral in S.C. and Cory liveries?

I’d always been very sceptical about those, but the other day I stumbled upon a photo that happened to show an SC 21 ton steel wagon at Tunbridge Wells West loco shed (SC were suppliers of loco coal to the LBSCR then SR).

 

And, once you start looking, you find more https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/stephenson-clarke-se-20t-steel-open-2s-e-3015-op-r3l-tare-10-5-0-spoked-wheels-rivetted-construction-photo-no-1743.html

 

(I have no idea if that is a Felix Pole wagon, but to me it looks like the Triang Hornby one my bro had 40+ years ago)

Edited November 30, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Stephenson Clarke and Cory Bros were (and possibly still are) major coastal shipping companies. That presumably would be for coal from South Wales and the North East.

 

Would they have run their own wagon fleets in S. Wales?? Is there perhaps some basis to Hornby knocking out their ancient "Felix Pole" N32 21T mineral in S.C. and Cory liveries?

 

A.G. Atkins et al., GWR Goods Wagons (3rd edition, Tourret Publishing, 1998) Plate 324: A Gloucester RC&W Co. diagram N32, GW No. H3394, on redemption hire to Stephenson Clarke, Gloucester official photo, June 1933 - also HMRS photo ref ACH024. HMRS has several other photos of SC 20 tonners, also one Cory, AAS204, but that's got a single door so not a genuine GW diagram?

 

I'm afraid I have to report that SC went into liquidation in July 2012, after 282 years in business. Cory Brothers exists, based in Southampton, but as a shipping agency rather than a line in their own right, as far as I can work out.

 

7 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Coal merchants were apparently notorious for using wagons as warehousing. This would have been no more popular with the colliery (who wanted the wagon back so they could use it as a stock holding facility on-site) than it was with the railway companies

 

That wouldn't have been an issue if they were using their own wagons, though they would presumably be occupying (and paying for) siding space. But it would give them the ability to respond promptly to orders.

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A.G. Atkins et al., GWR Goods Wagons (3rd edition, Tourret Publishing, 1998) Plate 324: A Gloucester RC&W Co. diagram N32, GW No. H3394, on redemption hire to Stephenson Clarke, Gloucester official photo, June 1933 - also HMRS photo ref ACH024. HMRS has several other photos of SC 20 tonners, also one Cory, AAS204, but that's got a single door so not a genuine GW diagram?

 

 

 

There are two different types of end door on display - the N32 type shown , which is very much that of the later 16T mineral , and Nearholmer's version, which looks an older style

 

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’d always been very sceptical about those, but the other day I stumbled upon a photo that happened to show an SC 21 ton steel wagon at Tunbridge Wells West loco shed (SC were suppliers of loco coal to the LBSCR then SR).

 

And, once you start looking, you find more https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/stephenson-clarke-se-20t-steel-open-2s-e-3015-op-r3l-tare-10-5-0-spoked-wheels-rivetted-construction-photo-no-1743.html

 

(I have no idea if that is a Felix Pole wagon, but to me it looks like the Triang Hornby one my bro had 40+ years ago)

 

So no that one isn't an N32, but it looks very closely related.

 

The GWR had used 20T steel minerals for several decades as loco-coal wagons before Sir Felix Pole tried to push the South Wales coal trade to modernise and use them through a 1000 GW wagons supplied on hire -purchase arrangements. I think at least one GW diagram had a single central door, though possibly a low one, and they may have also used the earlier  flatter end door.

 

It does however demonstrate that both the big coal factors were using 20T steel minerals in the 1930s, and the fact that Stephenson Clarke took an N32 on hire suggests they were running wagons in South Wales. Those wagons were aimed squarely at the South Wales coal trade.

 

Hornby's liveries are therefore reasonably well chosen, and the general style accurate - in one case at least , the livery is correct for the moulding used. Presumably the wagon builders were already turning out 20T steel minerals for private buyers between the wars . But it may have been restricted to the bigger more progressive organisations . I think Stewarts & Lloyd Corby and the CEGB were also users of 20T steel private owner mineral wagons [They will have been uprated to 21T in Sept 1939]

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm afraid I have to report that SC went into liquidation in July 2012, after 282 years in business. Cory Brothers exists, based in Southampton, but as a shipping agency rather than a line in their own right, as far as I can work out.

 

 

 

I knew Corys are still with us as liner agents , and current representation is here Cory representation  I think they used to be agents for Shipping Corporation of India. I knew Stephenson Clarke had been around well into the modern era , but hadn't flagged they'd gone bust

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That wouldn't have been an issue if they were using their own wagons, though they would presumably be occupying (and paying for) siding space. But it would give them the ability to respond promptly to orders.

 

Hence coal merchants would prefer to take their deliveries in their own wagons. This implies that the colliery wagons would have tended to be consigned to industrial users. And it does raise the question of whether that many Ocean mineral wagons would have been seen outside S Wales prior to the Second World War

Edited November 30, 2020 by Ravenser
Clarify 20T/21T

[Nearholmer]

If you cog to and fro in the SC section of the HMRS image library, there are several, I think not all the same, 20/21T steel wagons. 

 

The other livery that Triang Hornby put on their wagon was Norstand, which I think might have been a PO for coaling trawlers, but again I was always sceptical. [Wrong. Norstand were a builder/repairer of trawlers]

 

[This all flows, BTW, from my youngest bro's small layout having been dock/harbour based. Dock Authority shunter, fish vans in dodgy liveries etc.]

Edited November 30, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Ravenser]

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

If you cog to and fro in the SC section of the HMRS image library, there are several, I think not all the same, 20/21T steel wagons. 

 

The other livery that Triang Hornby put on their wagon was Norstand, which I think might have been a PO for coaling trawlers, but again I was always sceptical.

 

[This all flows, BTW, from my youngest bro's small layout having been dock/harbour based. Dock Authority shunter, fish vans in dodgy liveries etc.]

 

I had - and still have - the Norstand wagon as a boy. Just about the first addition to the trainset , as the owner was in Grimsby. Whether it's authentic is another matter - can't see GW N32s in Grimsby somehow

 

Livery is real though: Norstand 12T steel  

Edited November 30, 2020 by Ravenser

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

And it does raise the question of whether that many Ocean mineral wagons would have been seen outside S Wales prior to the Second World War

 

I've been collecting photos, both of Ocean wagons (both posed and en masse at the company's collieries) and Harris Deep Navigation, from whom Ocean took over Deep Navigation Colliery, Treharris, in 1893, along with their wagons. From photos, it would seem that a considerable part of the Ocean fleet was made up of end door only wagons - a 4-plank type with sprung buffers at the door end and dumb buffers at the fixed end seems to have been common, as seen here, 1880s. These are certainly pit-to-port wagons. Later wagons such as those supplied by Gloucester in the 1890s have side, end, and probably bottom doors, opening up the possibility that they weren't dedicated to the South Wales shipping circuit. There must have been inland industrial demand for South Wales steam coal - so that's my excuse for a couple of Ocean wagons of the Gloucester type running in the Birmingham area - definitely somewhere not reached by the costal coal trade, unless one postulates transhipment at Gloucester into narrow boats.

[Caledonian]

On 28/10/2020 at 07:32, MR Chuffer said:

What was the nature of this agreement? Curious...

I stand [or sit] to be corrected, but it may have something to do with destination points for returns. While much of the discussion on this thread is concerned with goods inward, those wagons had to be sent back. While a colliery-owned wagon would [hopefully] return to its home pit. Company wagons are a different matter, A wagon from the far north, would regain Highland metals at Perth.

 

The agreement may also cover returning multiple wagons rather than single strays. I have seen photies from the early grouping period depicting south-bound trains exhibiting a variety of foreign wagons which had apparently been collected together for returning. Presumably at some point in the journey all those wagons destined for [       ] Company metals would be cut out and sent on their way rather than delivered directly.

[ChrisN]

I am not sure how much this helps to the general discussion but a couple of specifics from 'Private Owners on the Cambrian.

 

Page 29, talking about Coal Merchants that do not have their own wagons:

 

"For instance, S Williams of Llnclys who, .... dis not have their own wagons received coal in a space of 18 months from... (list of collieries in the Wrexham area).

        On occasions coal and stone arrived in railway company wagons, the former mostly in Midland Railway vehicles.  (I am assuming to the same company.)  To give a couple of examples, nine MR wagons conveyed 72t 15cwt of coal from Swansea to Porthywaen via Brecon in February 1900.  A more intruiging example were two loads in MR wagons 108599 and 77168 on 3rd and 27th May 1899 from Cartwright Colliery, Swadlincote, Derbyshire, to Porthywaen on account of 'The Coal Miners Brotherhood'."

 

So for whatever reason it appears that on occasions the railway companies were paid to deliver coal, and from and to places you might not expect.

 

(There are then a couple of circulars from the Cambrian to staff instructing them to send back certain empties via the longer of two routes to the collieries in the Wrexham District.)

[Compound2632]

On 28/11/2020 at 17:20, Compound2632 said:

I'm afraid I have to admit that the probability of a D299 is slim - one would need some specific justification. 

 

On 28/11/2020 at 20:42, Schooner said:

Good Lord. It's one thing having the world turned topsy-turvy by the Parish Council, but this really is too far! 

 

 

Ah well, there we go. Thoroughly shown up by @ChrisN; not read properly a book I have! Nos. 108599 and 77168 are almost certainly D299 or possibly the end door variant D351.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Compound2632

[ChrisN]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Ah well, there we go. Thoroughly shown up by @ChrisN; not read properly a book I have! Nos. 108599 and 77168 are almost certainly D299 or possibly the end door variant D351.

 

No, not shown up.  You said 'specific justification'. I think hose two are quite specific, and the book gives no indication it was regular.  The wagons from South Wales may have been more common.

 

My question was about the Coast Line, and these came nowhere near that so you were right.

 

I think from the discussion so far, and specific instances that have been mentioned it is right to assume that most of the wagons on a given line pre-pooling would be, first home wagons, then POs and finally 'foreign wagons', there for a specific reason

[Penrhos1920]

12 hours ago, Ravenser said:

.

 

The GWR had used 20T steel minerals for several decades as loco-coal wagons before Sir Felix Pole tried to push the South Wales coal trade to modernise and use them through a 1000 GW wagons supplied on hire -purchase arrangements. I think at least one GW diagram had a single central door, though possibly a low one, and they may have also used the earlier  flatter end door.

 

It does however demonstrate that both the big coal factors were using 20T steel minerals in the 1930s, and the fact that Stephenson Clarke took an N32 on hire suggests they were running wagons in South Wales. Those wagons were aimed squarely at the South Wales coal trade.

 

Hornby's liveries are therefore reasonably well chosen, and the general style accurate - in one case at least , the livery is correct for the moulding used.

 

 

Here’s proof that SC 20T minerals were abundant in South Wales in 1935 as per the Mainline/ Hornby model.

 

 

but I forget the location!  There’s a second photo that shows that at least the front half is composed of 20T wagons.

[wagonman]

On 29/11/2020 at 19:32, bbishop said:

 

We have to be careful with numbering systems.  So Marlborough College wagon no. 64 wasn't their 64th mineral wagon but probably the 64th entry in the asset register.  Likewise Thomas Styles of Long Ditton numbered a wagon 1901 because it was supplied in April of that year.

 

 

So far as I have been able to discover, Marlborough College bought just four wagons, numbered 62-65, between 1905 and 1913. In 1948 they were paid £220.10s compensation by the BTC on the nationalisation of four wagons – it's tempting to assume the same four wagons but it would be an assumption.

 

Other peculiar wagon numbering systems include a coal merchant in Weston super Mare whose only wagon was numbered 40, his age in the year he bought it. Several multiple wagon owners used numbering systems that progressed in increments of 3, 5 or even in one case (Phipps of Devizes) of 111.

[Caley Jim]

It's interesting that companies (particularly local coal merchants) who only had one, or a few, wagon(s) always seemed to number them with odd numbers, 3,5,7, etc.  I don't think I've ever seen a photo of a wagon numbered '1'!

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

I don't think I've ever seen a photo of a wagon numbered '1'!

 

Rising to the challenge, I've counted 60 in Montague's Gloucester book, out of about 680 illustrated, so a bit under 10%. Maybe Scottish owners were more averse to unity?

 

I didn't count them but there seemed to be a good few 2s too.

[Caley Jim]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Rising to the challenge, I've counted 60 in Montague's Gloucester book, out of about 680 illustrated, so a bit under 10%. Maybe Scottish owners were more averse to unity?

I stand corrected and looking through my collection of PO wagon photographs I've found one of 'Hartwood Asylum No 1'.  It is, however, also lettered (in script) 'For private line traffic only'.

 

Jim

[CKPR]

I have a sense that the relative distribution and proportions of wagons in the pre-grouping era might have been very localised and influenced by  major traffic flows. In my area of interest, namely West Cumberland c.1900-1914, there were significant inward flows of coal and coke coming across primarily from the central division of the NER (i.e. the old S&DR via the CK&PR) with a smaller amount  from the northern division (via the former  N&CR) and outbound iron ore heading to the iron and steel industry in south west Scotland. This seems to have been coupled with very localised workings linking the Cumberland coal field, which also contained iron ore and limestone, with the iron and steel industry around Workington.  In modelling the M&CR, I have tended, perhaps rather simplistically, to represent this traffic with three main groups of 'foreign' wagons namely (1) NER coal hoppers [mostly marked 'CD'], (2) CR, G&SWR and NBR coal, ore and steel carrying wagons and (3) FR and C&WJR ore wagons for 'export'  traffic to south west Scotland. These represent the major traffic flows on the M&CR, much of which went over the Derwent branch to and from the FR [ex-WCER] and the C&WJR [which was operated by the FR] as a way of bypassing the isolated LNWR outpost at Workington.  

 

That said, I have also  built a lot of LNWR stock, including some wagons native to West Cumberland, along with PO wagons from the Workington and Cleator areas but I've now realised that these would be unlikely to be seen on the M&CR.

 

The picture that seems to be emerging is of quite fixed traffic flows over the M&CR with much if not all of this being carried in 'foreign' wagons both railway owned and privately owned [e.g. William Baird & Co.] and the M&C's own rolling stock being used almost entirely for local goods services, including the once substantial local coal traffic [i.e. originating on the M&CR itself] to the docks and iron works at Maryport. One practical implication of this analysis is that I need to start work on making a lot more PO wagons, in particular W.Baird & Co. for 'export' iron ore and some more Allerdale Coal Co. wagons for local coal traffic from Mealsgate. Needless to say of course, neither of these match any wagon kit and so it'll be out with the plasticard and Olfa cutter when Mrs-CKPR-to-be has finished using my scalpel and cutting mat to make our contribution to the village Advent display.

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/baird-wm-falkirk-15t-4-plank-iron-ore-s-e-1052-op-f3r-lettered-w-b-co-cupboard-side-doors.html

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by CKPR

[webbcompound]

1 hour ago, CKPR said:

I have a sense that the relative distribution and proportions of wagons in the pre-grouping era might have been very localised and influenced by  major traffic flows.

 

This is also my perception. This leads to the conclusion that by and large macro scale generalisations about traffic are relatively pointless, and attempts to draw on "foreign" (ie just down the road) examples are similarly problematic. This means that without detailed research on the particular location it is not possible to say what is happening, (for example a major flow might exist, but it might simply bypass a particular location) and in many cases very little actually exists to suit the fine detail we (mostly) require. After a lot of searching, and after locating very few photos, I can be confident I know which mines were operational at my chosen date (1906-7), in my chosen location (Connah's Quay). I cannot be confident about what wagons they were using. Some wagons "probably" got repainted whilst others didn't, some wagon orders give an indication of numbers of wagons bought, but not necessarily how many were in service, some references to coal factors and merchants may indicate which of their wagons were present, but these are rarely date specific enough to be sure, so I have a spread that suits my own ideas, and anyone else looking at them is probably not in possession of sufficient data to disagree.

[bbishop]

2 hours ago, webbcompound said:

This is also my perception. This leads to the conclusion that by and large macro scale generalisations about traffic are relatively pointless, and attempts to draw on "foreign" (ie just down the road) examples are similarly problematic. This means that without detailed research on the particular location it is not possible to say what is happening, (for example a major flow might exist, but it might simply bypass a particular location) and in many cases very little actually exists to suit the fine detail we (mostly) require. After a lot of searching, and after locating very few photos, I can be confident I know which mines were operational at my chosen date (1906-7), in my chosen location (Connah's Quay). I cannot be confident about what wagons they were using. Some wagons "probably" got repainted whilst others didn't, some wagon orders give an indication of numbers of wagons bought, but not necessarily how many were in service, some references to coal factors and merchants may indicate which of their wagons were present, but these are rarely date specific enough to be sure, so I have a spread that suits my own ideas, and anyone else looking at them is probably not in possession of sufficient data to disagree.

 

Many years ago, I did some research on the Birmingham C&W Co archives that are held at the Staffordshire Record Office.  I gained the impression their agent was active in a banana shaped area from Wolverhampton to Chester.  It might be worth an on-line perusal.  Bill

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, bbishop said:

Many years ago, I did some research on the Birmingham C&W Co archives that are held at the Staffordshire Record Office.  I gained the impression their agent was active in a banana shaped area from Wolverhampton to Chester.  It might be worth an on-line perusal.  Bill

 

By no means limited to that area. They supplied 20 wagons over the years to Huntley & Palmers and also wagons to C.&G. Ayres, both of Reading.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

On 27/10/2020 at 17:30, Regularity said:

The thing is, whatever research you do will apply reasonably accurately to a specific location at that particular time of the year, maybe even a specific line, but not really be generalisable to anywhere else.

 

[Compound2632]

I'm not entirely convinced by the pessimism of the last few posts. I think one can make some reasonably valid generalisations based on the available evidence - especially those cases where the railway can be "caught in the act" either through the chance survival of ledgers and other day-to-day documents, photographs, and my favourite, film. The latter two are invaluable as the goods traffic is generally not the primary subject, so isn't in any way staged. 

 

Of course for specific localities one has to do specific research. There are rules of thumb and then things one can put one's finger on.

[Caledonian]

My favourite story comes from Alastair Brotchie's book on the Wemyss Private Railway in Fife. It was built to carry coal from the Wemyss pits to the docks and locos and stock were painted accordingly, but there were also some oddities, including periodically a coal wagon from the Hamilton Palace colliery - why? Because although any amount of Wemyss coal could be had for the asking, the Hamilton Palace stuff was better for the blacksmith's shop. 

[CKPR]

That's reminded me that the local coal in West Cumberland was almost all for industrial use or export for the same. As a result, house coal was brought in from the north east for local domestic consumption, hence why several M&CR stations had NER-style coal depots and why a station like Mealsgate had a coal merchant, Thomas Blacklock, with his own wagons even though there was a large  rail-connected colliery about 1/4 mile away from the station.

 

http://www.cumbria-railways.co.uk/mines.html

Edited February 15, 2021 by CKPR