Signal gantries at Reading station 1990s

[mabel]

Could anyone point me in the direction of where I could get either drawings or basic measurements of standard (ish) Reading signal works gantries (bracket gantries) as in the pics below please? I have been trawling the net (and rmweb) for some time now so any help would be greatly appreciated. 

I have noticed that some gantries seem to be wider than others, is this just camera angle? Also, what are the walkways made from? Thanks,

Tony

Edited November 15, 2020 by mabel
Title to be related to signals at Reading rather than reading signals (no capital R) !

[jonny777]

Have you tried asking the question on the Reading station Facebook Group?

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1450572048583727/?multi_permalinks=2415536822087240%2C2415109348796654%2C2413334738974115%2C2414477642193158%2C2412932719014317&notif_id=1602972865577312&notif_t=group_activity&ref=notif

 

Someone there might be able to help. 

[The Stationmaster]

All of the above except the first picture were to the standard WR design of the mid 1960s but unfortunately I have never seen a scale drawing of them.  Some dimensions could possibly be calculated from the fact that the red aspect was 17ft 6 ins above rail level but that's about all I know of.  I might possibly have measured the flange size of the U shape girders forming the main uprights many years ago but if I did I long ago threw away that piece of information.   Of course still some of these around at various places and they might be accessible without going lineside.

 

The bracket in your first picture - still carrying the signals for Platforms 1 & 2 but after the signal for Platform 3 had been relocated to ground level further in advance of the structure - is basically a double version of the same basic structure.

[mabel]

Also, still at 1990s Reading, could anyone tell me what this colour light signal is for? What routes do the indicators read? (Just curious). I think it was off P3 (or maybe P2 but unlikely....). The pic was a still borrowed from a video on YouTube so clarity isn’t great, but I think it reads R338.

It’s position seemed odd as there is a T gantry in that locale. Were there any other similar signals in that area at that point in time?

thanks again 

Tony

Edited October 28, 2020 by mabel

[mabel]

2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

All of the above except the first picture were to the standard WR design of the mid 1960s but unfortunately I have never seen a scale drawing of them.  Some dimensions could possibly be calculated from the fact that the red aspect was 17ft 6 ins above rail level but that's about all I know of.  I might possibly have measured the flange size of the U shape girders forming the main uprights many years ago but if I did I long ago threw away that piece of information.   Of course still some of these around at various places and they might be accessible without going lineside.

 

The bracket in your first picture - still carrying the signals for Platforms 1 & 2 but after the signal for Platform 3 had been relocated to ground level further in advance of the structure - is basically a double version of the same basic structure.

The size of the U girders would have been a great help. I will have a go at scaling from the height of the red aspect. 

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

Tony

[mabel]

9 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

Have you tried asking the question on the Reading station Facebook Group?

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1450572048583727/?multi_permalinks=2415536822087240%2C2415109348796654%2C2413334738974115%2C2414477642193158%2C2412932719014317&notif_id=1602972865577312&notif_t=group_activity&ref=notif

 

Someone there might be able to help. 

Jonny,

I will have a trawl through that later. Unfortunately Im not a user of Farcebook so cant take part.

Thanks for the link, much appreciated,

Tony

[jonny777]

I am a member of that group, and could ask the question on your behalf - if you wish. 

[The Stationmaster]

11 minutes ago, mabel said:

Also, still at 1990s Reading, could anyone tell me what this colour light signal is for? What routes do the indicators read? (Just curious). I think it was off P3 (or maybe P2 but unlikely....). The pic was a still borrowed from a video on YouTube so clarity isn’t great, but I think it reads R388.

It’s position seemed odd as there is a T gantry in that locale. Were there any other similar signals in that area at that point in time?

thanks again 

Tony

It's R338 the signal reading from Platform 3 which was moved off the bracket structure to allow a longer train to use the platform.

 

 

 

 

[mabel]

19 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

It's R338 the signal reading from Platform 3 which was moved off the bracket structure to allow a longer train to use the platform.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the explanation and the pics... to negate S5 train starting ahead of a signal ... 

[mabel]

30 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

I am a member of that group, and could ask the question on your behalf - if you wish. 

Wow, thanks for the offer. Much appreciated. Happy for you to copy and paste the whole posting of mine if that is easier for you? Otherwise, if you could just ask for basic structure measurement and what were the walkways / landings made from?

I am a bit of a Luddite. Thanks again for your offer.

Tony

 

[The Stationmaster]

Ooops forgot to mention the landings - they were timber.

[mabel]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Ooops forgot to mention the landings - they were timber.

Excellent, thanks.

[mabel]

Still looking for drawings, dimensions, or even sketches on a fag packet of the above gantry signal(s) at Reading. I bought the Adrian Vaughan book on GW signalling, but unfortunately there weren’t any drawings of that type of gantry or similar. Many thanks in advance,

Tony

[mabel]

It has been suggested by a forum member that I should hop on a train and take my tape measure with me. Excellent! Why didn’t I think of that sooner? So off to Trainline.com......... £162 for the Mrs and me!!!! Wow! 

So perhaps another idea on this theme, could anyone tell me the closest to York that I might find one or any of these structures? Were they typical to Western region only being a Reading signal works product?

 I have tried my local S&T guys who provided me with lots of drawings but none of the type required.

Tony

[Stephen Freeman]

Whilst they may be standard WR designs, they owe more to standard BR designs based on the LMS rather than GWR in my opinion. A good book might be A Pictorial Record of LMS Signals by LG Warburton.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, mabel said:

It has been suggested by a forum member that I should hop on a train and take my tape measure with me. Excellent! Why didn’t I think of that sooner? So off to Trainline.com......... £162 for the Mrs and me!!!! Wow! 

So perhaps another idea on this theme, could anyone tell me the closest to York that I might find one or any of these structures? Were they typical to Western region only being a Reading signal works product?

 I have tried my local S&T guys who provided me with lots of drawings but none of the type required.

Tony

Definitely a waste of money going to Reading to look at/measure on as they have all gone from there - several years ago.  You are now very in unlikely to find one on any electrified part of the former WR and I would think that Plymouth is probably the best place to find an extant one.  Which would cost uyou a,lot more to get to that Reading.

 

4 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

Whilst they may be standard WR designs, they owe more to standard BR designs based on the LMS rather than GWR in my opinion. A good book might be A Pictorial Record of LMS Signals by LG Warburton.

Very definitely Reading designed and quite different in various ways from anything else produced by any other BR Region by the time they first appeared.   There certainly isn't anything in Warburton's book which looks anything like them as the upright section was completely different from the plate & angle design used by the LMR and ER/NER .     The earliest examples I can accurately date are from 1958/59 but I believe there were a few installed before that (such as the IBS signals at Circourt between Wantage Road and Challow).   They were almost invariably used for colour light signals although there was one at Yeovil Pen Mill which carried two semaphore stop signals for parallel running lines.  The design changed slightly from the various earliest examples because on the early version the flange of the angled bracing in the uprights had the flange to the outside of the upright 'U' channel sections where as later the flange was on the inside giving a much neater appearance.

 

There was another WR pattern of bracket used for colour lights signal but the bracket was not long enough for use on double lines - it used a standard (as for semaphore structures) tubular upright but was comparatively rare.  A version of it with a much shorter horizontal bracket piece was also used although it too wasn't common.

 

The design was superseded by a version based on the SR design and this later pattern began to appear in new works on the WR in the very late 1970s although they didn''t become common until the mid-late 1980s.   Examples of this style were used on the West of England resignalling in the 1980s.

[phil_sutters]

5 hours ago, mabel said:

It has been suggested by a forum member that I should hop on a train and take my tape measure with me. Excellent! Why didn’t I think of that sooner? So off to Trainline.com......... £162 for the Mrs and me!!!! Wow! 

 

Just to confirm that you should save yourself a trip  - elegant aren't they?

Edited November 15, 2020 by phil_sutters

[mabel]

14 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

Just to confirm that you should save yourself a trip  - elegant aren't they?

Wow! Thanks Phil. That could have been an expensive trip for nothing........ the new signals look functional rather than aesthetically pleasing ...

[mabel]

34 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Definitely a waste of money going to Reading to look at/measure on as they have all gone from there - several years ago.  You are now very in unlikely to find one on any electrified part of the former WR and I would think that Plymouth is probably the best place to find an extant one.  Which would cost uyou a,lot more to get to that Reading.

 

Very definitely Reading designed and quite different in various ways from anything else produced by any other BR Region by the time they first appeared.   There certainly isn't anything in Warburton's book which looks anything like them as the upright section was completely different from the plate & angle design used by the LMR and ER/NER .     The earliest examples I can accurately date are from 1958/59 but I believe there were a few installed before that (such as the IBS signals at Circourt between Wantage Road and Challow).   They were almost invariably used for colour light signals although there was one at Yeovil Pen Mill which carried two semaphore stop signals for parallel running lines.  The design changed slightly from the various earliest examples because on the early version the flange of the angled bracing in the uprights had the flange to the outside of the upright 'U' channel sections where as later the flange was on the inside giving a much neater appearance.

 

There was another WR pattern of bracket used for colour lights signal but the bracket was not long enough for use on double lines - it used a standard (as for semaphore structures) tubular upright but was comparatively rare.  A version of it with a much shorter horizontal bracket piece was also used although it too wasn't common.

 

The design was superseded by a version based on the SR design and this later pattern began to appear in new works on the WR in the very late 1970s although they didn''t become common until the mid-late 1980s.   Examples of this style were used on the West of England resignalling in the 1980s.

Thanks for the history of the design. Being close to York, I wonder if the nrm might have some drawings.... Failing that, I think I will try and scale from the signal head and knock up a test structure to see what it looks like. 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, mabel said:

Thanks for the history of the design. Being close to York, I wonder if the nrm might have some drawings.... Failing that, I think I will try and scale from the signal head and knock up a test structure to see what it looks like. 

Some of he Reading S&T drawings were sold to a private individual who established a company and uses them to manufacture equivalent components.  Subsequently various changes occurred by the drawings and patterns still exist in the hands of the company linked below.

I know this involved the original 'stick' drawings (so called because there were on linen stored by being wrapped round a stick) but i don't know if it included the later drawings related to colour light signals (various) - their website only refers to mechanical era stuff.  I suspect that as there would be no market for Reading pattern brackets structures for colour lights they are unlikely to have any relevant drawings

 

https://www.railwaysignalcompany.com

[Stephen Freeman]

For construction details of the Bracket signal try a search in Ebay for Maidenhead Station, you should find a decent photo of a platform mounted version.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Maidenhead-Railway-Station-Photo-Taplow-Twyford-Slough-to-Reading-Line-16/262160423605?hash=item3d09fa9ab5:g:mAsAAOSwp5JWVgne

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

For construction details of the Bracket signal try a search in Ebay for Maidenhead Station, you should find a decent photo of a platform mounted version.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Maidenhead-Railway-Station-Photo-Taplow-Twyford-Slough-to-Reading-Line-16/262160423605?hash=item3d09fa9ab5:g:mAsAAOSwp5JWVgne

The ones sited on station platforms were no different from those sited  in the 10foot or cess because the foundations were at the same or a very similar level above the rail head.  So what happened on a platform was that a large hole was dug to get down to foundation level  and the foundation was then concreted including the fixing studs and the bracket structure was then bolted to the foundation in the normal manner.  Depending on time/money available etc the usual method was then to plank over the hole at platform level but in some cases the hole was backfilled.

[The Pilotman]

On 28/10/2020 at 11:11, mabel said:

Also, still at 1990s Reading, could anyone tell me what this colour light signal is for? What routes do the indicators read? (Just curious). 
 

It’s almost twenty years since I last pulled this signal off but to answer your question it had two “main aspect” routes; to the down main and to the down Westbury (where the train in the picture is going). I think the indicator would therefore have shown “DM”  or “DW” as appropriate. It might have just been “M” or “W”; I used to know all this stuff but the intervening years and a big career change have deleted quite a bit of the railway hard drive, as it were. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Western Aviator

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Western Aviator said:

It’s almost twenty years since I last pulled this signal off but to answer your question it had two “main aspect” routes; to the down main and to the down Westbury (where the train in the picture is going). I think the indicator would therefore have shown “DM”  or “DW” as appropriate. It might have just been “M” or “W”; I used to know all this stuff but the intervening years and a big career change have deleted quite a bit of the railway hard drive, as it were. 

Without checking I'm fairly sure it showed DM or DW. (but I left the WR before you so my memories are even older  ).   On thing I do know is that I haven't got a photo of that signal showing a proceed aspect.

[5BarVT]

On 28/10/2020 at 11:39, The Stationmaster said:

It's R338 the signal reading from Platform 3 which was moved off the bracket structure to allow a longer train to use the platform.

It was moved longer ago than I thought!  I have a print of the Reading sketch that is from 1984 at the latest and probably 80/81 and R338 is moved on that.  It showed W and M then and I see no reason why it should have changed.

The closest ‘Reading’ gantry to York that I know of is at Gloucester station. Installed early 76 as part of the Eastgate closure, manufactured late 75 is my guess as there was one of that size in the works then.  The brackets installed at Gloucester are not ‘Reading’ brackets but the type that were installed for all the WR reversible working in mid 70s.

I have photos of the Gloucester gantry and brackets at Bristol taken in 2017 and also some from Swansea (when I can find them).

I can put some on here, (or let you have originals via PM) if you wish.

Paul.