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Does anyone know the answer to this?


Bandicoot
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As you may have realised, that is a metre-gauge wagon. I don't know of any rtr HOm French prototype rolling stock. The train in the background is, I think, an electric unit on the Train Jaune de Cerdagne.

 

The curious end door is almost certainly a brake cabin. On standard gauge stock these were usually (always???) external cabins set high to provide a view along the train.

 

This is probably the best site for French HOm: http://interfer-trains.com/index.php

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
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1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

As you may have realised, that is a metre-gauge wagon. I don't know of any rtr HOm French prototype rolling stock. The train in the background is, I think, an electric unit on the Train Jaune de Cerdagne.

 

The curious end door is almost certainly a brake cabin. On standard gauge stock these were usually (always???) external cabins set high to provide a view along the train.

I'm certain that Joseph is right about it being the Cerdagne. You can see the third rail in front of the wagon on the left, the couplings are the type used on the Cerdagne and the shape of the motor car also fits those on the Cerdagne. I was slightly thrown by the overhead in the back of the shot but that's consistent with the eastern teminus of the line at Villefranche Vernet les Bains where it connects with an electrified SG branch from Perpignan and the topography beind the station looks more like that end of the line.

This postcard of La Tour de Carol at the western end of the Cerdagne is also pretty conclusive as the wagon on the right appears to be identical to the one in your photo.

1735928471_LaTourdeCarolGareCPA.jpg.f9c380b196f7effa7145790f6249a49f.jpg

 

I don't though think that  your photo was taken at La Tour as the metre gauge track there was far less mixed in with the other two gauges (SG and Iberian)  than it was with the SG at Vernet les Bains

1347923618_LaTourdeCarolGare.png.2aedf891cc2e309e3e7572bee4da6caa.png

 

From what I remember of travelling on the line in the 1970s. the main goods interchange was at the Villefranche end. Goods traffic on the Cerdagne had AFAIK finished by the time I was there but there were far more wagons parked in the yards at Villefranche and the two gauges were far more mixed up as they appear to be in your photo.

REE has now introduced a range of French metre gauge prototype RTR stock (at a price!) available in H0m (hooray!) and H0e (boo!) but it seems to all be based on CFD prototypes, The CFD (Chemins de Fer Départementaux) was one of the two largest companies that operated multiple metre gauge railways in France as a concessionaire and standardised its stock  which makes it more attractive for a manufacturer than individual railways like the Cerdagne with rater distinctive rolling stock. I'm afraid I don't think I have any drawings for the Cerdagne but will let you know if I find any. 

Edited by Pacific231G
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I'm 99% sure that its Villefranche too.

 

The van appears to have jumper sockets on the end, which suggests that it was configured for electric haulage, possibly with through multiple-unit control to permit it to run between two motor driving cars - I don't think the line ever had locomotives, there were some of what we would call motor luggage vans in Britain, two of which now form the snow-plough unit.
 

Goods stock described here http://www.cfchanteraines.fr/lvdc/lvdc0137/carnet02_3.htm

Edited by Nearholmer
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Many thanks for your replies. My apologies for not getting back to you earlier, but I had a bit of a problem with re-connecting with the site.

 

In my ignorance, I had not realised that the photo I posted was of a narrow gauge wagon. I am actually after information on broad gauge rolling stock which was used by the Railway Operating Division in France and Flanders during the First World War.

 

The photo below is what I am looking for. Any help or suggestions would be gratefully received.1BF2EE36-B5FA-48DC-899E-DB3C9F5C2754.jpeg.83936b504d74d9adb6a473ca7d20ed25.jpegRd

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I'm not aware of any HO rtr French wagons that are this early and with the pitched roof format.

 

There are some Italian wagons available rtr that have some similarities.

 

Edit: I think that there would be a good market for wagons from this era. Perhaps worth a commission to get some done in 3D print.

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
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Many thanks, Joseph.

I agree that there ought to be a market out there, although it may have died down, now that the centenary is two years ago. I had great hopes that Bachmann would expand their War Department Light Railway stock and, maybe, add another locomotive or two.

Sadly, I am not in a position to commission something like that. I am sure that I saw a thread some years ago, where a contributor had cast some bodies for these, but I cannot find it now.

Thanks for your help.

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1 hour ago, Bandicoot said:

Many thanks for your replies. My apologies for not getting back to you earlier, but I had a bit of a problem with re-connecting with the site.

 

In my ignorance, I had not realised that the photo I posted was of a narrow gauge wagon. I am actually after information on broad gauge rolling stock which was used by the Railway Operating Division in France and Flanders during the First World War.

 

The photo below is what I am looking for. Any help or suggestions would be gratefully received.1BF2EE36-B5FA-48DC-899E-DB3C9F5C2754.jpeg.83936b504d74d9adb6a473ca7d20ed25.jpegRd

I thought the ROD took their own wagons to France though they would have also used wagons from French railway companies . The standard gauge wagon is from the CF du Midi but if this was taken during WW1 it was old even then. We also don't know if this interchange with the 60cm gauge  was near the front or at a depot elsewhere in France though from the context I suspect the former.

I have seen other images of pitched roof couverts on French railways- mostly in postcards from the 1900s- but even then they were far less  common than curved roofs. I too have always associated pitched roof wagons with Italian railways where they continued for far longer.

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Thanks Pacific.

Sadly, although there are a number of books about the ROD, they tend to concentrate on locomotives, rather than wagons/trucks/vans.

The number of photographs of rolling stock are comparatively thin on the ground, but I have got hold of a copy of the Railway Magazine for March 1933, which lists the various types and which company they came from.

There are also the famous Hommes 40 Chevaux 8 vans with the curved roof, which are available from several manufacturers in H0 (unfortunately not in 4mm!)

I don’t think the wagon in the second photo was British made. I’m afraid I know absolutely nothing about Italian railways, but there are quite a few photos of the pitched-roof vehicles on Google and also in Roy Link’s WDLR Album.

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It seems that the CF du Midi was quite partial to pitched roofed wagons in the years before WW1

I found this from 1906 or before on a Loco Revue forum thread about the bulk transport of wine. 

574348177_WagonbifoudresBeziers.jpg.146eec4883f1fd0b4940a18d71568189.jpg

 

Beziers, in the Herault was a major centre for the sort of "affordable" wine you wouldn't ever be a wine snob over!

Edited by Pacific231G
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2 hours ago, Bandicoot said:

Thanks Pacific.

Sadly, although there are a number of books about the ROD, they tend to concentrate on locomotives, rather than wagons/trucks/vans.

The number of photographs of rolling stock are comparatively thin on the ground, but I have got hold of a copy of the Railway Magazine for March 1933, which lists the various types and which company they came from.

There are also the famous Hommes 40 Chevaux 8 vans with the curved roof, which are available from several manufacturers in H0 (unfortunately not in 4mm!)

I don’t think the wagon in the second photo was British made. I’m afraid I know absolutely nothing about Italian railways, but there are quite a few photos of the pitched-roof vehicles on Google and also in Roy Link’s WDLR Album.

 

Careful here. I think that all the wagons that have been available rtr are later than WW1.

 

Using 1:87 standard gauge wagons with 1:76  OO9 does not work out too badly. If you want anything French in 1:76, you will definitely be scratchbuilding or 3D printing.

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Thanks, Joseph.

 

When (and if) things settle down, i must get to the model shop and do a comparison. Some people think a mixture of scales is ok, others hold up their hands in horror!

 

As the H0 stock would be behind other British WD stock, it will hopefully just look as though it is further away from the viewer.

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36 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Careful here. I think that all the wagons that have been available rtr are later than WW1.

 

Using 1:87 standard gauge wagons with 1:76  OO9 does not work out too badly. If you want anything French in 1:76, you will definitely be scratchbuilding or 3D printing.

The bodies for wagons like that are not too difficult to scratchbuild especially if you're being somewhat generic. I did some metre gauge French wagons in H0e a few years ago and just used N gauge wagon chassis. if I can anyone can. They're waiting to be re chassised for proper H0m using chassis parts I bought years ago from the 3mm Society. 

If you can get hold of suitable OO wagon chassis kits you'll need to cut off the buffer beams and extend the sole bars- French four wheel wagons tended to have quite short wheelbases for their length as they used wagon turntables a lot.  and probably remove most of the brake gear . The body can be simply constructed from moulded and plain plasticard, plastic strip and structural plastic-Evergreen etc.  for the ironwork. If you mass produce a few of them the same nobody will be able to tell you they're wrong as 19th C wagons could have been produced for any of several constituent companies by any number of wagon builders. 

Edited by Pacific231G
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30 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

The bodies for wagons like that are not too difficult to scratchbuild especially if you're being somewhat generic. I did some metre gauge French wagons in H0e a few years ago and just used N gauge wagon chassis. if I can anyone can. They're waiting to be re chassised for proper H0m using chassis parts I bought years ago from the 3mm Society. 

If you can get hold of suitable OO wagon chassis kits you'll need to cut off the buffer beams and extend the sole bars- French four wheel wagons tended to have quite short wheelbases for their length as they used wagon turntables a lot.  and probably remove most of the brake gear . The body can be simply constructed from moulded and plain plasticard, plastic strip and structural plastic-Evergreen etc.  for the ironwork. If you mass produce a few of them the same nobody will be able to tell you they're wrong as 19th C wagons could have been produced for any of several constituent companies by any number of wagon builders. 

 

Very true. I expect that you have come across Pierre Miquel who scratchbuilds 1:43 PLM wagons of this era using Slaters and Parkside components.

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
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Gents,

 

Have come back to modelling after a break of over fifty years. I have no confidence in my being able to scratch build anything at all, let alone a wagon,  but if I can find the money, I may give it a go.

 

Thank you all for your advice.

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I have a copy of the recently published book about the railways of Gironde, and there are a couple of drawings of wagons with these non curved roof profiles. I think the design was used elsewhere, certainly looks similar to the ones at Beziers. I think some wagons still exist on the preserved line. Described as 'wagon couvert serie K'. one has brake cabin,but main design looks same as without brake cabin. The other drawing is of a slightly earlier version which is also slightly shorter.

I am now very tempted to do a 3D print design

There is also a drawing for a much longer wagon, with curved roof, which I think dates from 1920s, the others dating from 1880-1899.

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@rue-d-etropal.

 

Simon,

 

I you could be tempted into doing these in 3D, I’m sure there would be a lot of people who would call down blessings on your head.

 

Similarly, if you thought of producing the ubiquitous Hommes 40 Chevaux 8 vans/wagons, I think there are a lot of uk modellers who would love these in 1:76 scale. All the newer H0 wagons seem to be sold out/no longer available and the ones I have seen on eBay are usually damaged or in poor condition.

 

My 20 and 40 hp Simplexes turned out very well, by the way. Need to get back to you on a couple more 40hp variants.

 

Please consider making the shorter version. Also, perhaps a second one with the brakeman’s cab.

 

Holding my breath here!

 

Kind regards,

 

John

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interesting, certainly shows how far these wagons travelled.

 

I wonder if anyone does thes wagons in any other scale. For anyone wanting them for WW1 themed layouts I suspect they are more likely to model in 1/76 not 1/87, although there are now some military models in 1/87 scale.

Edited by rue_d_etropal
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