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LSL Blue Pullman HST


TravisM
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14 minutes ago, keefer said:

I'm sure I've read that one of the tasks of the travelling fitter was to start/stop any auxiliary engines as required - IIRC they powered the heating/air-conditioning among other things and the load varied according to passenger loading, ambient temperature etc.

I think you're right. I've got a set of Blue Pullman Instructions somewhere and if I can find it  (big IF) I'll have a look.

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27 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Although the interesting thing is (albeit with a fitter travelling regularly on some workings) they were reasonably reliable in everyday traffic.  I travelled on one particular train every Friday for about 5/6 weeks in succession and it was always on time leaving Cardiff and even over the fairly arduous trip through the Severn Tunnel and the subsequent 18 miles of steady climbing  up to the summitBadminton (mostly at 1 in 300 but with some stretches as steep as 1 in 68) it didn't lose time - it wouldn't have done that running on one engine.

 

Similarly on the occasion I had a cab ride over the same route the Canton Driver knew exactly what he was at and gained sufficient time in excess of the Recovery and 'Circle' time between Newport and Badminton to get into the Bristol Pullman' path from Wootton Bassett and an early arrival at Paddington.   The Driver said he could manage that every time on that particular train and get ahead of the Bristol at Wootton Bassett unless there happened to be a TROS    A train with 'poor' performance couldn't have managed that consistently.

 

The MAN engines were notorious for throwing oil (although that trait was also present in some of the original German versions so I was told) and they definitely had reliability problems which meant that failures and maintenance delays led to substitution by the 'Wells Fargo' set on the Western.  But when they were working properly the trains could turn in a good running. performance.   I can't remember many delays arising from problems on the traisn but I do know that when the 'short' Oxford workings were introduced they did suffer from cancellations.

 

But overall the point is that during their relatively short lives they never received much in the way of development and the sort of attention that was given a few years later to the HST fleet in order to solve its various initial problems.

But with respect mike are you not comparing apples with oranges....the HST was a commuter train, the blue pullman was a niche service...so it would make sense to invest to resolve the HSTs issues....could br have withstood another APT style failure....such was the publicity of the HST at the time.... in other words...did the HST become to large to fail....

 

is it not safe to assume as well...such a prominent niche service was subjected to much higher maintenance regimes...than your average commuter train.....which skewed its reliability somewhat? 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

You could fit tables of four and a kitchen area in a Pacer, but you've still got a Pacer, albeit one with tablecloths and a priority limited stop pathing....

 

Don't say that.  Somebody on one of the smaller heritage lines will probably take up that suggestion ! 

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5 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Don't say that.  Somebody on one of the smaller heritage lines will probably take up that suggestion ! 


And if they do, don’t order the soup (unless stationary). 

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5 hours ago, pheaton said:

But with respect mike are you not comparing apples with oranges....the HST was a commuter train,

 

They certainly served some commuter flows, but the HSTs were 125mph inter-city express trains used on 7-hour plus runs ! And regarding the Blue Pullmans, on the very few occasions I saw them before their demise they were going fast enough through Didcot that the coach numbers were impossible to record  (albeit being white on light grey did not help.....)

 

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Well you could say the Blue Pullman was a commuter train.  My dad used the South Wales Pullman  to go from Bristol Parkway to London on a Monday morning and home on Fridays for weeks on end when he was doing a lot of interviewing.  It wasn't really the proper Blue Pullman by then though - it was when the colours had been reversed.

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This BP-vs-HST debate seems a bit odd to me, in that conceptually they were more or less the same thing: a nippy, fixed-formation train, for fast intercity service, to compete with the car on new motorways, and short-haul air travel.

 

BP probably "went wrong" in two ways:

 

- it was just a few years too early in the technological evolution process, so quickly looked underpowered (it probably couldn't outpace a Western or a 47 with six or eight pullman cars behind), while its aircon and other modcons were rather "first generation";

 

- the Pullman concept was so not-1960s. It was a decade where the emphasis was on democratising (or at least appearing to democratise) comfort and practicality, not perpetuating the division of comforts that had existed hitherto - think fitted carpets, central heating, a colour telly, and a Ford Cortina.

 

IMO, it was the second point that probably prevented it gaining enough traction(!) to merit developing a bigger fleet, and knocking the bugs out of the engineering. If it had been an ordinary 1st and 2nd class train, with a very good standard of service in 1st, it would probably have founded a dynasty and allowed continuos development to HST as that emerged, rather than the discontinuity that happened. But, outside of the southern, the idea of fixed formation trains, rapid turnarounds, clockface timetabling etc took a very long time to take root.

 

Of course, one fleet of nearly-inter-city DEMUs did plod on throughout: The Hastings units! Even more underpowered, slower, not troubled by fancy air-conditioning, and none of yer poncy styling, but they lasted longer.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

This BP-vs-HST debate seems a bit odd to me, in that conceptually they were more or less the same thing: a nippy, fixed-formation train, for fast intercity service, to compete with the car on new motorways, and short-haul air travel.

 

BP probably "went wrong" in two ways:

 

- it was just a few years too early in the technological evolution process, so quickly looked underpowered (it probably couldn't outpace a Western or a 47 with six or eight pullman cars behind), while its aircon and other modcons were rather "first generation";

 

- the Pullman concept was so not-1960s. It was a decade where the emphasis was on democratising (or at least appearing to democratise) comfort and practicality, not perpetuating the division of comforts that had existed hitherto - think fitted carpets, central heating, a colour telly, and a Ford Cortina.

 

IMO, it was the second point that probably prevented it gaining enough traction(!) to merit developing a bigger fleet, and knocking the bugs out of the engineering. If it had been an ordinary 1st and 2nd class train, with a very good standard of service in 1st, it would probably have founded a dynasty and allowed continuos development to HST as that emerged, rather than the discontinuity that happened. But, outside of the southern, the idea of fixed formation trains, rapid turnarounds, clockface timetabling etc took a very long time to take root.

 

Of course, one fleet of nearly-inter-city DEMUs did plod on throughout: The Hastings units! Even more underpowered, slower, not troubled by fancy air-conditioning, and none of yer poncy styling, but they lasted longer.

 

 

 

When you compare locos and DEMUs the Hastings was basically a 25 on a five coach train and the BP on five or seven  . None of them particularly rapid .

If the pullman could have had an engine rated about 1500hp but remember it couldn't have been too heavy  it may have been better

. The 12cyl maybach may have been better 

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18 minutes ago, russ p said:

If the pullman could have had an engine rated about 1500hp but remember it couldn't have been too heavy  it may have been better

 

That was what I was driving at with my point about it being a bit too early technologically. In my alternative universe, the Mk2 version would have had a single-cabbed Class 33, with a small office for the guard, at each end, and six or eight cars in between. A very nippy and extremely flexible combo, as was proven by the southern touring trains c1980, which used 2x33, plus 2x4TC and a wired buffet.

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2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

That was what I was driving at with my point about it being a bit too early technologically. In my alternative universe, the Mk2 version would have had a single-cabbed Class 33, with a small office for the guard, at each end, and six or eight cars in between. A very nippy and extremely flexible combo, as was proven by the southern touring trains c1980, which used 2x33, plus 2x4TC and a wired buffet.

 

It was a bit of a trail blazer for the time - perhaps the surprising thing is they seemed to run reasonably reliably (although there were instances when the B’ham one was substituted by loco hauled stock, including the Western hailed one which came to grief at Knowle and Dorridge)? Did you mean wierd

buffet bt??!! 
 

I think there are a couple of epoch defining things I suspect that resulted in the blue Pullman being what it was:-

 

1) It was conceived at a time when main line diesel power requirements for express passenger were thought to be 2000 hp (this is what the BP had and presumably made it nippy) - presumably the 6 car Midland Pullmans were that bit more nippy though needed to deal with significant gradients up in the Peak District (though there were a few on the WR as well - Hatton; later, Severn Tunnel) 

 

Would 3000 hp plus (2 x 33) really have been seriously considered for such trains - even if that power was available during development? This amounts to Dektic levels of power? 
 

2) There was a whole demarcation issue with resourcing of catering services and unionisation (the exact details of which I don’t actually understand) - the Pullman trains being staffed by Pullman employees whilst normal services were staffed by BR catering employees (employed by the hotels and catering arm of the BTC?) - this whole issue resulted partially in the termination of the buffet services on the cross country DMUs on the WR in the early 60s

 

The BPs as implemented were intended to service business travel so in some respects their presence as Pullman services might have got around some of the manning issues and also the idea of a premium business service was a good one. Of course, the WCML also introduced new Pullman services in 1966/67 with completely new Mk2 stock on completion of electrification to Euston - which I think were reasonably successful. 
 

The BPs were certainly one of the most iconic ‘modernisation’ trains from my childhood in my eyes (despite any technical foibles) and the cutting edge of modernisation (similar to the ‘blue’ AC electrics of similar times). That the BPs survived as long as they did, given the culling of non standard surplus stock in the late 60s is perhaps surprising. 

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Democracy had nothing to do with it.   The general public just wanted fast but above all, cheap, discounted fares, and they would prefer to bring their own butties or go to the bar and settle for the legendary British Rail sandwich rather than pay for a proper meal served by flunkies.

 

The Pullmans were trying to maintain a prestige service for business travellers whose employers were willing to pay full fare, who didn't want their valuable time wasted at the other end by grabbing breakfast or lunch on the run when they needed to do whatever business justified the trip.  These passengers would choose to travel by rail if it was clean, comfortable, efficient and gave them decent catering.  They didn't want to be beset by little children running around screaming and they needed to catch up on the paperwork they hadn't got around to before the journey - or at least to fill in their expenses forms on the way back.  The price could be justified if it was cost effective compared to air or road travel, taking into account whatever value was put on journey time spent by expensive senior staff during working hours.  Value was placed on these people arriving in a fit state of mind ready to work properly, not knackered by driving and stressed out by traffic jams and road works getting there.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Democracy had nothing to do with it. 


It didn’t say it had.

 

The second dictionary meaning of “democratisation” is:

”the action of making something accessible to everyone.”

 

And I’d still contend that a trend of the ‘sixties was the democratisation of comfort, and that BR got itself on the wrong side of that trend by creating a set of assets that were entirely dedicated to the ‘premium’ part of the market. It probably looked like a good idea in 1955, but it turned out not to be.

 

 

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All too easy to forget teh age in which the Blue Pullman was conceived.  As 'Midland Red' has very correctly pointed out in sheer engine horsepower terms it was the equivalent of what BR was introducing as Type 4 main line diesel power - the need for higher horsepower had hardly been recognised at that time.

 

Secondly the BluePullman idea was really a modernised version of the crack train per route per day but with more than one train in some cases although still maintaining the 'crack express idea'.  the idea of having similar fast trains for everyone hadn't really developed very noticeably at that time except on some parts of the Southern. electric network.  The HST was a step change away from the old idea because it was really the fruition of the philosophy of all trains being 'crack trains'.

 

The other, crucially important thing about the Blue Pullman - as with the APT and HST was to create a new and outstanding image in the minds of the public and the Blue Pullman definitely did that for us on its introduction when we went to watch it passing because it was new and very different - just like the LNER streamliners of the 1930s.

 

The question of catering staff manning is an interesting one and I know there were some items in the Instructions which said that certain things were the responsibility of the Pullman Car Co.  However the staffing of the Pullman service is an interesting area because from looking at old photos and film of the trains on the Western some of the 'Pullman' catering etc staff, particularly Stewards, were actually members of BR catering staff - presumably hired out to the Pullman Car Co?   You could also come across instances of Stewards an WR services in Pullman Steward's uniform jackets but without the badges.  Incidentally I think by the time the Blue Pullmans came into service on train catering staff were back under Regional control.  That was very definitely the case in the later years of the Blue/Grey Pullman because the WR had a training establishment for on-train catering staff in a former country house near Old Windsor. (and the food and service were excellent judging by the two days I spent then undergoing an interview).

 

The buffets on cross-country DMUs didn't cease to be used because of who controlled the staff but because of lack of custom and the expense of manning them although on-train catering staff had some very flexible conditions of employment which allowed far longer working days than any other land based railway staff.

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5 minutes ago, BR(S) said:

I've just been sent a picture showing front end damage to one of the power cars of the Pullman HST. It's coupled to a green 37. Is there any further information on what caused the damage?

 

A shunting incident with a Mk2 last Friday (pic from flickr)

43055 0Z43 Guide Bridge

 

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On 20/07/2021 at 23:16, Nearholmer said:

This BP-vs-HST debate seems a bit odd to me, in that conceptually they were more or less the same thing: a nippy, fixed-formation train, for fast intercity service, to compete with the car on new motorways, and short-haul air travel.

 

BP probably "went wrong" in two ways:

 

- it was just a few years too early in the technological evolution process, so quickly looked underpowered (it probably couldn't outpace a Western or a 47 with six or eight pullman cars behind), while its aircon and other modcons were rather "first generation";

 

- the Pullman concept was so not-1960s. It was a decade where the emphasis was on democratising (or at least appearing to democratise) comfort and practicality, not perpetuating the division of comforts that had existed hitherto - think fitted carpets, central heating, a colour telly, and a Ford Cortina.

 

IMO, it was the second point that probably prevented it gaining enough traction(!) to merit developing a bigger fleet, and knocking the bugs out of the engineering. If it had been an ordinary 1st and 2nd class train, with a very good standard of service in 1st, it would probably have founded a dynasty and allowed continuos development to HST as that emerged, rather than the discontinuity that happened. But, outside of the southern, the idea of fixed formation trains, rapid turnarounds, clockface timetabling etc took a very long time to take root.

 

Of course, one fleet of nearly-inter-city DEMUs did plod on throughout: The Hastings units! Even more underpowered, slower, not troubled by fancy air-conditioning, and none of yer poncy styling, but they lasted longer.

 

I agree it was under powered, it also didn't ride particularly well as has been said. 

 

Not sure about the appetite for Pullmans dwindling in the 1960s and beyond though.  I think it rather depended on the market.   Iirc the electrically hauled Manchester Pullman was always very well loaded throughout its life.  Not the 1960s I admit, but I remember returning from Manchester on the late afternoon up train in the last days of the Mk2 Pullmans and it was almost full.  Being the fastest trains of the day undoubtedly helped (a light load by contemporary WCML standards and running non-stop to/from Wilmslow iirc) but they were popular trains with business travellers.

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18 hours ago, Fredo said:

How long to repair?

 

The damaged cab will have to come off and either be sent away to be repaired if that is deemed feasible or replaced.  Either way I doubt it will be back for a while.

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