jonny777 Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 3 hours ago, Phil Parker said: Ask a child to draw a train and you'll get a steam engine. Yes, that is true - but how much of that is due to how they have been conditioned during their early years? My grandson is 4 and loves to watch live train cameras on my laptop. He must think it is quite strange that throughout his baby years almost all the pictures of trains have been steam locomotives, and yet everything he sees going past the cameras are electric or diesel powered and look nothing like a Choo-choo. They don't even sound like a Choo-choo. His favourite is anywhere with a very frequent service. The Watford cam is popular, as is Peterborough. Rather than gaining new recruits to railway enthusiasm (which does not have to revolve around trainspotting) I wonder if the sudden shock of the modern network being so completely at odds with the way railways are portrayed for infants, is going to have the opposite effect and put many of them off? Ok so I am nudging into Devil's Advocate territory here, but I believe it to be a serious question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted November 2, 2020 Administrators Share Posted November 2, 2020 10 minutes ago, jonny777 said: Yes, that is true - but how much of that is due to how they have been conditioned during their early years? Who cares? 10 minutes ago, jonny777 said: Rather than gaining new recruits to railway enthusiasm (which does not have to revolve around trainspotting) I wonder if the sudden shock of the modern network being so completely at odds with the way railways are portrayed for infants, is going to have the opposite effect and put many of them off? Only if they live in a preserved railway bubble. As someone else has noted - for many youngsters, their only experience of train travel is likely to be a preserved line and so for them, trains = steam engine. 12 minutes ago, jonny777 said: Ok so I am nudging into Devil's Advocate territory here, but I believe it to be a serious question. It might be a "fascinating" discussion but Hornby's job is to make money NOT to set them on the path of True Railway Modelling. If a chuff-chuff appeals, and it's got to appeal to the people paying for the present, not just the recipient, then that's what you put in the set. If you happen to have a glut of them in stock, commercially it makes even more sense. You can argue that children should only be presented with your particular version of reality. You could even argue that it would be closer True Railway Modelling if the box contained some brass bits and P4 wheels, but that's not what Hornby does. I don't think it's a discussion for this thread though. 4 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold jonnyuk Posted November 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 2, 2020 and in a nutshell "You could even argue that it would be closer True Railway Modelling if the box contained some brass bits and P4 wheels, but that's not what Hornby does. " Hornby are not your accurascale, not even your Bachmann. They are the face of "toy trains" in the uk. they have to be the jack of all trades, not just really high end, super duper loco's. Their R&D, manufacturing, marketing, consumer facing shops have to account for every level of their product range, it can't simple be devoted to their latest £190 loco, like for example accurascle/cavelex, Bachmann (to a lesser extent). i for one love their train sets in a box, if i had the space and time i'd love to get one (my garage layout uses all my available space/time/money), the excitement of opening up a box with all that stuff in it, like a proper little kid at Christmas, and that in another nutshell is the whole point. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted November 2, 2020 Moderators Share Posted November 2, 2020 If you want train set ovals with a theme this month's BRM may be of interest. I drew up three different approaches, at least one would make a viable show layout. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 28 minutes ago, Phil Parker said: Who cares? Only if they live in a preserved railway bubble. As someone else has noted - for many youngsters, their only experience of train travel is likely to be a preserved line and so for them, trains = steam engine. It might be a "fascinating" discussion but Hornby's job is to make money NOT to set them on the path of True Railway Modelling. If a chuff-chuff appeals, and it's got to appeal to the people paying for the present, not just the recipient, then that's what you put in the set. If you happen to have a glut of them in stock, commercially it makes even more sense. You can argue that children should only be presented with your particular version of reality. You could even argue that it would be closer True Railway Modelling if the box contained some brass bits and P4 wheels, but that's not what Hornby does. I don't think it's a discussion for this thread though. Well that reply wins the prize for being full of strawmen and non-sequiturs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 30801 Posted November 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 2, 2020 Rather reminds me of the 80's Hornby Treasure Chests which were boxed sets of some track and whatever stock they had spare. Mine had an Ivatt in it. I quite like these. You get a proper loco rather than one of the 040s and you can have a bit of fun sticking & glueing so long as B&Q have some wood in stock. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium RichardT Posted November 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, jonny777 said: My grandson is 4 and loves to watch live train cameras on my laptop. He must think it is quite strange that throughout his baby years almost all the pictures of trains have been steam locomotives, and yet everything he sees going past the cameras are electric or diesel powered and look nothing like a Choo-choo. They don't even sound like a Choo-choo. He’s 4. He doesn’t “think it’s strange” - the whole world is new to him, full of interesting stuff that moves. And as for the Hornby Xmas box: excellent idea. No specific train illustrations on the box so that substitutions can be made as stock levels vary; contents in their normal retail packaging so ditto; steam loco included because it has visible rods that go round when it moves so adding to the play value (tbf an 08 or a Fell (!) would also work on this basis. But not a tedious 66 or, heaven forfend, some kind of EMU.) Only thing I would have changed is adding a bigger siding/two sidings (play value again). Oh, and getting the lady presenter to do more videos. RT Edited November 2, 2020 by RichardT To be more provocative 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium JDW Posted November 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 2, 2020 Seems an excellent idea to me. A 'train set plus'. As much as we might want to see it from a modeller's point of view and ask where the brake coach is or whether the eras match, it's something that will light up many people's faces in lockdown or at Christmas and give much more fun and entertainment than the traditional standard train set. You might guess from my avatar that LNER steam isn't my thing at all, steam in general isn't, but for a 'classic' train set, I think steam will always have more appeal. If I were buying or building one for someone new(ish) to the hobby, it's what I'd go for. Steam has appeal, is quaint and more 'human' than a plain boxy diesel or DMU, as much as I'd prefer those things for myself. Plus, a big modern diesel and long wagins will always look wrong on tight curves, short, tender locos and 4-wheel wagons are much better, and you can fit more of them in the same space - important for play value. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TravisM Posted November 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 2, 2020 I’m going to put the cat among the pigeons because I’m just dismayed, not with Hornby as I think it’s a great idea both stater pack and add on, though my ears did pick up when I thought she said “a six pack wagon”, which I thought “there’s one for the dad “. It’s the usual nitpickers, bemoaners and usual belly achers that could turn Guinness sour. instead of supporting the idea and trying to get younger people or even those that are returning to the hobby, they insist on picking holes in the idea. It’s the reason I’ve given up on model railway clubs as these people do nothing for the hobby except p**s on peoples dreams. 1 5 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amand Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) The loco from the starter set shown in the video is in LNER livery, to my non HD eyesight its 7942 R3529, which also features in the photo on Hornby's website. Ok, they have them in stock at full RRP. Further down the page it lists the starter set loco as R3529, Hornby's description J15, 65477, **ERA 3**, which is being offloaded by Hornby at £77.99. And its correct SKU is R3415. Come on Hornby, make your mind up! Its been bugging me all night hence me posting this at 4am! Edited November 3, 2020 by Amand Its 4am! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Darius43 Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 Back in the early 1970s my Dad bought a second hand Marklin train set from a work colleague. My Grandad (a professional artist) built and painted the Airfix station, signal box and platform kits and the whole set was presented to me on the dining room table on Christmas Day. It was a German steam loco (2-6-0) hauling three tinplate two axle coaches around an oval of track into a British station and I absolutely loved it - it was and always will be the best Christmas present I ever had. If Hornby can bring that kind of experience to kids with these train set packs, hats off to them. Cheers Darius 8 2 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 11 hours ago, RichardT said: He’s 4. He doesn’t “think it’s strange” - the whole world is new to him, full of interesting stuff that moves. RT Ok, poor choice of words by me. He will think it is strange when he gets a bit older. If he asks Santa for a big lorry for Christmas, would anyone think of buying him a model of traction engine and trailer, or one of a Foden steam lorry (both slightly younger than an original J15)? I don't think so. I expect he would prefer something similar to this - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Oxford-Man-Curtainside-Hgv-ERIC-VICK-TRANSPORT-176-Scale-Limited-Ed-MIB/184490924067?epid=27012034716&hash=item2af4841823:g:dIgAAOSw1~Zfia0F So why are we supporting projecting an image of Victorian motive power on toddlers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted November 3, 2020 Administrators Share Posted November 3, 2020 38 minutes ago, jonny777 said: So why are we supporting projecting an image of Victorian motive power on toddlers? You're right. We must march on Hornby, smash the factory and demand that they only supply the very latest designs of model in their Family Fun Projects. Or we could just accept the set is what it is an no-one is forced to buy it. 2 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, jonny777 said: Ok, poor choice of words by me. He will think it is strange when he gets a bit older. If he asks Santa for a big lorry for Christmas, would anyone think of buying him a model of traction engine and trailer, or one of a Foden steam lorry (both slightly younger than an original J15)? I don't think so. I expect he would prefer something similar to this - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Oxford-Man-Curtainside-Hgv-ERIC-VICK-TRANSPORT-176-Scale-Limited-Ed-MIB/184490924067?epid=27012034716&hash=item2af4841823:g:dIgAAOSw1~Zfia0F So why are we supporting projecting an image of Victorian motive power on toddlers? Because it's the easiest way 'in' to the hobby. Catch a child's imagination, and let the imagination grow. That 'toddler' might well grow to become any number of diverse and exacting people that you meet every day. This isn't indoctrination; far from it. My trains had some HO (Joueff ?) stock arrive. "Why does it look different? That was just one lesson; this time, scale perception. Media will portray a railway locomotive like we all know & understand. Yes, there will be instances where a child will say "That's not right" but at least they will know 'why' it's not right. Imagination is a wonderful, but very powerful tool. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 6 hours ago, Amand said: The loco from the starter set shown in the video is in LNER livery, to my non HD eyesight its 7942 R3529, which also features in the photo on Hornby's website. Ok, they have them in stock at full RRP. Further down the page it lists the starter set loco as R3529, Hornby's description J15, 65477, **ERA 3**, which is being offloaded by Hornby at £77.99. And its correct SKU is R3415. Come on Hornby, make your mind up! Its been bugging me all night hence me posting this at 4am! I think its just the box artwork thats in LNER livery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 54 minutes ago, jonny777 said: Ok, poor choice of words by me. He will think it is strange when he gets a bit older. If he asks Santa for a big lorry for Christmas, would anyone think of buying him a model of traction engine and trailer, or one of a Foden steam lorry (both slightly younger than an original J15)? I don't think so. I expect he would prefer something similar to this - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Oxford-Man-Curtainside-Hgv-ERIC-VICK-TRANSPORT-176-Scale-Limited-Ed-MIB/184490924067?epid=27012034716&hash=item2af4841823:g:dIgAAOSw1~Zfia0F So why are we supporting projecting an image of Victorian motive power on toddlers? But it may have passed you by but Hornby already make well over a dozen train sets with everything from Princess Royals in BR Black to Paddington Bear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 15 hours ago, Oldddudders said: I like this. Launched 7 weeks before Christmas, and fortuitously just before another UK lockdown, Hornby is making a determined effort to get parents on-board. Are Simon Kohler and Boris Johnson in cahoots? We need to be told! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 30801 Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, tomparryharry said: Are Simon Kohler and Boris Johnson in cahoots? We need to be told! Just popping off to Durham for an R186 signal box. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium RichardT Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, jonny777 said: So why are we supporting projecting an image of Victorian motive power on toddlers? Hi Jonny777 You might be overthinking this a bit! Happens to all of us when something touches on one of our specific hobby hot buttons: witness my constant incoherent annoyance at Farish’s inexplicable twenty-year blind spot about not upgrading their shonky LNER V2 to modern standards, which “it’s obvious” (to me) would be an easy win. There, I’ve shoe-horned it in again. Have a good Christmas with your grandson, and keep up the class 66 brainwashing... Cheers, RT Edited November 3, 2020 by RichardT Clarity 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, 30801 said: Just popping off to Durham for an R186 signal box. No thanks, I've already got an 'ology'. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 22 hours ago, Billystanier said: Another effort to get rid of J15s. 22 hours ago, JohnR said: At least its a different number on the J15. We should probably be grateful that its a loco from the same region and era! Is one of the Mark 1's in chocolate and cream though? Difficult to tell. IMO the J15 is a pretty little engine, and that is what the target market's looking for. Seems like a good choice to me. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 3, 2020 2 hours ago, jonny777 said: So why are we supporting projecting an image of Victorian motive power on toddlers? As has been pointed out, go into any primary school and ask the kids to draw a train. A large proportion will draw a STEAM loco. Hornby exist to make money for their shareholders, not 'correct' peoples thinking. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 1 hour ago, RichardT said: Hi Jonny777 You might be overthinking this a bit! Happens to all of us when something touches on one of our specific hobby hot buttons: witness my constant incoherent annoyance at Farish’s inexplicable twenty-year blind spot about not upgrading their shonky LNER V2 to modern standards, which “it’s obvious” (to me) would be an easy win. There, I’ve shoe-horned it in again. Have a good Christmas with your grandson, and keep up the class 66 brainwashing... Cheers, RT I'm not sure where all this emotive language is coming from. The Hornby offering has not hit any of my "hot buttons" (whatever they are). I like the family box. It is an excellent idea. I just wondered aloud why there is not an equivalent with a class 66 and some aggregate wagons? Hornby might have lots of J15s unsold, but that is none of my business. Their choices are commercial ones. I am speaking as a potential customer. Yes, I am fully aware that if I go into any classroom around the UK and ask children to draw me a train, they draw a steam engine - probably because when they see one it is a big day out and all the adults are getting excited over it. I am puzzled why my seemingly perfectly logical suggestion has resulted in a whole bunch of very defensive replies, which include completely unfounded accusations about my relationship with my grandson? - even if it was meant tongue in cheek. I have not brainwashed anyone about class 66s. I don't particularly like them. However, I don't force my favourites on anyone else; relatives or otherwise. My grandson asks if he can see trains on my laptop, and I have let him see numerous cctv or Youtube footage. He does not seem to have any preference for steam locos, because I have zillions of hours of commercial dvd/video footage if he shows an interest. He is mildly keen on cab ride videos, but only to see the trains coming in the opposite direction. He soon gets bored if there aren't any. He watches Thomas The Tank engine videos but has never been looking at a 158 unit leaving York and asked 'where is Thomas?' He loves Clapham Junction or East Croydon videos because there is a lot of movement and the trains are all different colours which he points out to me. I tend to scroll through the still images and he chooses what to watch. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium RichardT Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 3, 2020 4 hours ago, jonny777 said: I am puzzled why my seemingly perfectly logical suggestion has resulted in a whole bunch of very defensive replies, which include completely unfounded accusations about my relationship with my grandson? - even if it was meant tongue in cheek. “Defensive replies” - eh? And “Unfounded accusations about my relationship with my grandson” - what??!! Obviously we always have to be aware that the written word can be a bit of a blunt instrument, conveying nothing of the nuance of face to face conversations. In this instance I’ve clearly failed to convey the light-hearted tone I intended about what I thought was a bit of inconsequential model railway chatter. My apologies for offending you, and that’s me out of this. Yours faithfully, Richard Taylor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 31 minutes ago, RichardT said: “Defensive replies” - eh? And “Unfounded accusations about my relationship with my grandson” - what??!! Yes. Sadly for those egos are so inflated they fail to read posts before replying, they might have noticed this - "Have a good Christmas with your grandson, and keep up the class 66 brainwashing..". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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