Repair to Lionel Standard Gauge tin plate #384 loco and coaches

[sncf231e]

You might consider using a Märklin AC controller, like 6647 or 66471 or an older version like 6631. Before I managed to get a Lionel transformer I ran my Lionel trains with a Marklin AC controller.

Regards

Fred

Note: of course check an input voltage as needed (110/220)

Edited November 5, 2020 by sncf231e

[BR60103]

Are old Hornby O gauge controllers available? Probably out of safety certificate.

Lionel used variable transformers. The couple that rented my grandparents' upstairs had an O gauge set of that vintage. Their transformer had a lever that contacted different studs (or whatever) as it moved around. 

 

[Il Grifone]

A Hornby* Transformer would be well out of safety certificate and plugging it in should be avoided.

 

I did try an ancient Trix transformer once (from a safe distance). To me surprise it worked without sparks or bursting into flame. I didn't push my luck beyond a few seconds however!

The controller might be OK, but will still have dodgy insulation and should be checked by a competent electrician before use.

 

* Meccano motors used 20V AC and there may be a suitable transformer, but they did switch to DC battery motors fairly early on post war. Reversing was by means of a substantial (but rather crude) switch on the motor.

[gordon s]

13 hours ago, sncf231e said:

You might consider using a Märklin AC controller, like 6647 or 66471 or an older version like 6631. Before I managed to get a Lionel transformer I ran my Lionel trains with a Marklin AC controller.

Regards

Fred

Note: of course check an input voltage as needed (110/220)

 

Thanks Fred. Just checked out the manual for the 6647 and that looks ideal. A plastic case with the transformer and controller in one package. The manual says you can reverse by going beyond the 0 mark, so it will be interesting if that works with the Lionel loco. No reason why it shouldn't as it should just replace the reverse lever on the loco. There seem to be several on eBay right now for £25-£35 plus shipping, so that could provide a solution. I'll have a chat with the owner and see what he wants to do. It would take a qualified electrician to rework the Alderman B controller and I won't touch it.

 

Took the roof of the both coaches this morning and surprised to find 2 of the 3 bulbs still work. Hennings have an enormous range of spares so I'll order some spare bulbs, motor brushes and four new driving wheels. The acetate window  glazing is in two parts, a white strip at the top and clear for the glass. Sadly it has some damage, but most of the problems are minor and they could be careful glued into position. The originals have tiny slots in them that engage with triangular fold down tabs in the bodywork, but most of the slots are either elongated or torn.

 

I'm in two minds whether to glue the original strips back in place or cut some new ones in clear film. I guess it's important to retain the original parts if possible, but they are discoloured and very brittle. A wipe over with a damp cotton wool pad worked wonders in removing 80 years of dirt this morning. The Observation car is in very good condition whereas the Pullman car is good for its age, but does have some very fine surface rust under the paintwork in a couple of places.

 

Suddenly lock down doesn't seem some bad.....

[Nearholmer]

Go carefully on reversing. 
 

Im pretty sure the Maerklin automatic reverser works on the basis of a short pulse of ‘over voltage’.
 

What I don’t know is whether your Lionel loco has an automatic reverser, or just a manual reverser switch, and if it does, how it works - they aren’t all the same.

[sncf231e]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Go carefully on reversing. 
Im pretty sure the Maerklin automatic reverser works on the basis of a short pulse of ‘over voltage’.

Yes, indeed. The Märklin reverse works on a higher voltage pulse (24V AC) and will sure not work with Lionel. 

Regards

Fred

[gordon s]

Funnily enough I was just wondering how it worked....

 

Here is the reverser. The lever has moved off centre in the pic, so ignore that. It is concentric once fixed in position.

 

 

There are four sprung loaded contacts and the wipers on the switch lever connect 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 in one direction and then 1& 4 and 2 & 3 in the opposite direction.

 

Having buzzed them through with my meter, I have labelled them up accordingly and the reversal makes sense. DCC and DC with their polarities is all straightforward, but getting my head around AC is a whole new ball game....

 

If anyone is attempting a similar dismantle, be very careful removing the top disc as springs and contacts are just waiting to fly everywhere. Thankfully I saw that coming, so all was OK....

[gordon s]

2 minutes ago, sncf231e said:

Yes, indeed. The Märklin reverse works on a higher voltage pulse (24V AC) and will sure not work with Lionel. 

Regards

Fred

 

I haven't ordered the Marklin controller yet, but guess that would be a problem. Can that be disconnected or will I need to fabricate a mechanical stop to prevent that happening?

[Nearholmer]

That’s presumably a purely manual reversing switch. I can’t see any mechanism to drive it other than a finger-lever.

 

Looking at it, what it is doing is reversing the current-flow through the armature windings.

 

The field windings will be wired in a separate, not-switched, circuit direct between pick-ups and chassis.

[gordon s]

Yes, I should have said, it's purely manual. I had hoped the Marklin unit would simply reverse the current flow, but I guess not.

 

I now realise my life has gone full circle....

 

My very first train set in the 50's was Trix Twin with an 0-4-0 loco which also ran on 16vAC. To reverse the loco (from memory) you had to flick a lever on the controller which clicked over a solenoid device in the cab to reverse the current flow.

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, gordon s said:

Yes, I should have said, it's purely manual. I had hoped the Marklin unit would simply reverse the current flow, but I guess not.

 

With a wound-field motor of this kind the direction is changed by reversing the direction of current flow through one (not both) windings, the armature coils or the field coils. This applies whether it is being supplied with ac or dc (unlike a permanent-magnet motor they can digest either).

 

In a permanent magnet motor (which can digest only dc), the permanent magnet field is fixed, it can only be in one direction, so all that is needed to reverse it is to reverse the current via the armature, by reversing the polarity of the supply.

 

All sorts of subtly different automatic reversers, of varying levels of reliability, were fitted to model trains with wound-field motors, but they were (indeed are) an annoying source of failure and maloperation. Hornby Dublo's choice of permanent magnet motors and a dc supply in the late 1930s was quite brave, and exceedingly far-sighted. Trix, who had entered the H0/00 market before them were just a tiny bit too early, or too conservative, so lumbered themselves with the wound-field motor and their version of the automatic reverser.

 

Nowadays, it is simple to convert an old wound-field motor to behave like a permanent magnet motor, making it good for use on dc supplied railways, by fitting a diode rectifier to the loco, and a lot of people do that.

 

The Maerklin controller pulses their reverser, but if you pulse your loco, all you will do is risk damage to the insulation, so probably safest not to.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Il Grifone]

I have replaced all my AC reversers with rectifiers (bar my Trix Scotsman) to ensure they run and reverse properly (possibly heresy?).

 

A bit off topic for Lionel, but it is all AC.  Märklin use an over voltage pulse (I thought it was 20 volts, but it is not critical) to operate a relay selecting one of two field windings wound in counter phase. Trix on the other hand interrupt the supply to operate the reverser in sequence: forward - neutral - reverse - neutral (the 'Scotsman, and other Pacifics use the neutral to operate a tender uncoupling device which is why mine is untouched). The brush tension is set to stop the motor with less than 6V traction voltage.The reversing switch then operates the sequence reverser which changes the direction of current flow through the armature. Unfortunately dirt on the track has the same effect , so the system is not quite 100% reliable....

Edited November 5, 2020 by Il Grifone

[Mark Carne]

Lionel used a break in the current to cycle their sequence reverser, but as this loco is manual reverse, that doesn't matter. The only thing to bear in mind, is these locos require more current than your average 00 or 0 gauge loco, particularly when running with an illuminated train. My 408E, which has 2 of these motors, pulling 4 state cars with lights, pushes my 5 amp, 20 volt bench top power supplies to the limit. This loco and train will need something like a 2 amp power supply.

 

Mark

[BR60103]

If you know how a DC motor works: the armature is electrified to magnetize it one direction. This is pulled to the opposite pole in the field. When it gets there the electricity is reversed and it is pulled to the other pole.

Under AC the same happens except that the field magnetism and the armature magnetism reverse 60* times every second. 

* 60 over here. It was 25 at my grandparents place in the 40s and 50s.

 

[Il Grifone]

50 Hz this side of the pond.

It gave problems watching each others TV....

Initially we pointed a camera at a monitor with understandably poor results. BBC engieers invented a digital converter. This was a huge device with its own department. I fixed it once - located which of the 74 series ICs had failed.

 

The mechanical operation of AC and DC motors is identical.  AC motors are universal AC/DC, having a wound field so the magnetic circuit is always in phase. DC motors have a permanent magnet (or a rectified field winding) so the current has to be unidirectional too.

[Nearholmer]

Well OT really, and mighty picky, so, in the immortal words: I shall say this only once.

 

It is more helpful to differentiate between these motors by calling them "permanent magnet" and "wound field" than "DC" and "AC", for two reasons:

 

- the wound field commutator motor is 'universal', it can be supplied with AC or DC; and,

 

- there are other types of motor, lots of them, especially for AC.

 

As a side-note, the vast majority of real railway traction motors were wound field commutator motors until the advent of practical power electronic control in recent years, and, just like the toys, the real trains have on-board reversers, with operation initiated by the driver.

 

For all sorts of electrical reasons, these motors can't practically operate at 50 or 60Hz in real traction applications, which is why, until engineers from Alsace solved the problem of on-train rectification to allow the motors to operate from DC, just either side of WW2, early AC electrification used "strange" low frequencies, 16.66Hz, 25Hz etc.

[gordon s]

I will come back to you on using a Marklin unit as clearly I have a lot to learn on AC motors....

 

I was going to order all the required parts via the web today but found that overseas orders on the Henning’s Trains website have to be done over the phone. Called in and mentioned a Pre War Lionel loco and was immediately transferred to an expert. Harry Henning, no less who at 78 had forgotten more about Lionel loco’s than I’ll ever know.

 

What a pleasure to speak to the ‘top man’ who had been in the business over 60 years......

 

Wonderful guy who answered all my question as we chatted away for 15 minutes or so. Based in Pennsylvania, his opinion of Trump was priceless.......

 

A real reminder of old fashioned customer service with knowledgeable people.....and what a lovely place.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/uv?pb=!1s0x89c6a3c7b3685119%3A0xd0bf3e7b780cdbc!3m1!7e115!4s%2Fmaps%2Fplace%2Fhenning%2Btrains%2F%4040.2374778%2C-75.2809152%2C3a%2C75y%2C322.65h%2C90t%2Fdata%3D*213m4*211e1*213m2*211sFZ15ZBcpGQpGU_KqeVnVBw*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x89c6a3c7b3685119%3A0xd0bf3e7b780cdbc%3Fsa%3DX!5shenning trains - Google Search!15sCgIgAQ&imagekey=!1e2!2sFZ15ZBcpGQpGU_KqeVnVBw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjIi6r4ye7sAhWEUMAKHVduCakQpx8wFnoECBcQCA
 

Edit: Just had a mail that all parts have been sent today, so couldn’t ask for more. Now at the mercy of the US Post.....

Edited November 6, 2020 by gordon s

[PatB]

On 05/11/2020 at 02:51, gordon s said:

Thanks IG. I will be ordering a complete new set of wheels and a pair of carbon brushes tomorrow from the US. Managed to slip some washers behind the rod to test that it all rotated freely and very happy to say the whole of one side works. As I hope to have new wheels arriving in the next four weeks or so, I feel fairly confident this old lady will run again soon.

 

At present I'm using the 16vAC fixed output from my Gaugemaster controller to run the loco, but I will need to start thinking about how this beauty is going to be controlled. My electronic knowledge is fairly limited, but I'm going to need a controller circuit capable of supply an AC voltage from 0-16vAC that will handle this motor. The Gaugemaster D is a 1A unit and the motor runs quite happily. I have a separate Gaugemaster 16vAC transformer which would be ideal, so I guess I need some form of electrical control to provide the variable voltage from 0-16v.

 

Grateful for any ideas how this can be done at a reasonable cost.

The universal wound field motors in old American locos will run quite happily on DC. My small collection of Lionel and Marx engines generally get run from a cheapo universal laptop power brick, with a 5A output, variable in 3V steps up to 15V. Anything more than 9-12V means my locos fall over on 0-27 corners. Reversing is effected by momentarily interrupting the supply. 

[gordon s]

That's a surprise....I have tried this morning for a few seconds and it does run on DC power. Will that do any long term damage?

 

I suspect I will still go down the variable AC power pack from Marklin, but will either need to disconnect the beyond zero reverse function electrically or incorporate a mechanical stop that will prevent operators pinging a higher voltage without realising.

 

Woke up in the middle of the night thinking about pressing the new wheels on (as you do...) and found this on YouTube. I managed to knock out the axles from the geared drivers this morning, but removing the gear wheel broke away the boss on the old wheels as expected.

 

This guy shows the existing gear wheel being replaced on the new wheels (same as me), but shows the small bosses being peened over to hold the gear in place. (3min 20sec in).

 

Despite his method appearing OK, I'm very reluctant to take a centre punch and bang away on the back of the new wheels as the old ones were so fraglie. Perhaps the news ones are much stronger.

 

Any alternative ideas?  Would some form of glue or even silicon be sufficient to hold them in place? They are sandwiched between the back of the wheel and the chassis, so can't go far, but would probably benefit from being held in position.

 

Interesting choice of wheels as he has two plain wheels and two driving wheels with the coupling rod boss. I did wonder at first but now realise the 8E loco is an 0-4-0 electric with the wheels hidden from view.

 

I don't think this one would slip through prototype comparison these days......

 

Love the lights compared to the pantograph.

 

https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/locomotive-electric-locomotive-no-8e-lionel-corporation/UAGmRgj0bW9KGw?hl=en

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by gordon s

[Mark Carne]

2 hours ago, gordon s said:

That's a surprise....I have tried this morning for a few seconds and it does run on DC power. Will that do any long term damage?

 

I suspect I will still go down the variable AC power pack from Marklin, but will either need to disconnect the beyond zero reverse function electrically or incorporate a mechanical stop that will prevent operators pinging a higher voltage without realising.

 

Woke up in the middle of the night thinking about pressing the new wheels on (as you do...) and found this on YouTube. I managed to knock out the axles from the geared drivers this morning, but removing the gear wheel broke away the boss on the old wheels as expected.

 

This guy shows the existing gear wheel being replaced on the new wheels (same as me), but shows the small bosses being peened over to hold the gear in place. (3min 20sec in).

 

Despite his method appearing OK, I'm very reluctant to take a centre punch and bang away on the back of the new wheels as the old ones were so fraglie. Perhaps the news ones are much stronger.

 

Any alternative ideas?  Would some form of glue or even silicon be sufficient to hold them in place? They are sandwiched between the back of the wheel and the chassis, so can't go far, but would probably benefit from being held in position.

 

Interesting choice of wheels as he has two plain wheels and two driving wheels with the coupling rod boss. I did wonder at first but now realise the 8E loco is an 0-4-0 electric with the wheels hidden from view.

 

I don't think this one would slip through prototype comparison these days......

 

Love the lights compared to the pantograph.

 

https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/locomotive-electric-locomotive-no-8e-lionel-corporation/UAGmRgj0bW9KGw?hl=en

 

 

 

Did you read Nearholmers reply about universal motors running perfectly well on AC or DC?

 

Here is the important bit from Nearholmers reply, in case you missed it.

 

"It is more helpful to differentiate between these motors by calling them "permanent magnet" and "wound field" than "DC" and "AC", for two reasons:

 

- the wound field commutator motor is 'universal', it can be supplied with AC or DC; and,

 

- there are other types of motor, lots of them, especially for AC."

 

Yes, the replacement wheels are more robust than the old ones, the old ones have Mazac rot, technically known as intergranular corrosion, which the new ones do not suffer from. Fixing the gear wheels by spreading the spigots on the back of the wheel is 100% the correct way to do it, I also spread the centre boss a bit too, and ream out the hole a little after. And here is a picture of the Lionel Super Motor that I rewheeled.

 

Mark

[Il Grifone]

I  (mis)use my drill stand* to press wheels onto their axle. I find any attempt using some sort of percussion device results in damage to the wheel or axle or both. Even if the wheel goes on, it is invariably skew and at best needs tweaking, at worst is a write off.

 

* A good vice will probably work too.

[gordon s]

Thanks guys and apologies if I missed (or forgot I'd read) some salient points before. Sadly as the years roll by, it's something I have to live with....

 

The upside of running DC will be the availability of control boxes, but all the lights are 18v bulbs, so I have yet to check their brightness running at a much lower voltage. I guess it would certainly prolong their life.

 

I will be using a drill stand to insert the axles. either my Proxxon bench one or my full size pillar drill in my workshop. Thanks for allaying my fears on peening the gear bosses. I was thinking of drilling them a mm or two on the back before spreading them with a centre punch to basically create a shallow hollow rivet. I'm sure a little lubrication will help also.

 

I must be honest, I'm really enjoying undertaking this work. Possibly because my sausage fingers and sub perfect eyesight is not an issue with such large components. My friend and his wife were really excited when I took the  loco over to them a few days ago. For them to see one pair of drivers with the slide rod, rotating after all these years, was a real pleasure, so I know once it's all working properly, they will be very happy seeing it run again, something I think they thought would never happen again.

[PatB]

16 hours ago, gordon s said:

That's a surprise....I have tried this morning for a few seconds and it does run on DC power. Will that do any long term damage?

 

 

Shouldn't do. There are rumours that running on DC will eventually magnetise the plunger in reversing units, but noone seems to have actually seen it happen. Besides, your loco hasn't got one, and I don't care because I wire mine with a bridge rectifier, giving reversing by altering track polarity rather than iffy electromechanical arrangements.

 

Whilst I've never run any of my US locos on AC, not having a suitable source, they do appear to be significantly smoother and quieter than similar locos run on AC seen on YouTube. On AC they all seem to emit a loud, mains frequency buzz, especially just before they start to move. American enthusiasts seem to love this as, presumably, it's part of the nostalgia, along with the smell of ozone. Personally, I'd find it very irritating, and it is, of course, entirely absent when fed on reasonably smooth DC.

 

The only disadvantage of DC that I can see is that some of the operating accessories that are part and parcel of US toy trains require AC to work. Again, I'm not that bothered as I don't own any. If I did, I'd obviously have to consider alternative arrangements.

Edited November 8, 2020 by PatB

[gordon s]

Stumbled across one of these this morning.....As always really wary about cheap electrics from a safety and spec perspective.
 

Could this (or similar) be used as a cheap and cheerful solution, bearing in mind it’s likely to only be used for demo/play situations.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AC-DC-3V-24V-Electrical-Power-Supply-Adapter-Charger-Variable-Voltage-Adjustable/363109269512?hash=item548affc008:g:6mcAAOSwdipfYwi1

[sncf231e]

Interesting, but you have to choose for a 3V-12V or a 9V-24V version. Both are not good enough for model trains I think. There is no on/off switch so you will always have voltage on the track, not a good idea.

Regards

Fred