RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Rob F said: So this is still your business then, just curious? If anyone worked for me in a public facing role and was that discourteous to a member of the public, who should all be treated as prospective customers, we would be sitting down and having a serious chat. There are times a certain tone is required. The alternative is that the Mods sit back and let things descend into chaos and madness. Rob. 2 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forest2807 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 If one of the mods hadn’t made the rude comment earlier in the thread then it wouldn’t have started it’s descent into chaos and madness. 1 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 I wonder if the BWT has the original Dapol motor or the second generation DJM gutless coreless motor 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Popular Post Oldddudders Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted November 3, 2020 There is an argument for announcement threads to be locked immediately after posting. Every single one is swiftly accompanied by the completely pointless remarks about the price of this or that, compounded by the whingeing that not only has the "right" livery not been announced, but also this or that model has not appeared, and wouldn't it be great if they were to do so? The price is the price, although it may be discounted in due course. If a member thinks a certain model should be made, or a certain livery, perhaps contacting a manufacturer direct would achieve more than boring the rest of us. Then there's "If only they'd do it in N Gauge"..... Turning an announcement into another pointless wishlist is unhelpful at best. 4 17 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted November 3, 2020 Author Moderators Share Posted November 3, 2020 15 minutes ago, forest2807 said: If one of the mods hadn’t made the rude comment earlier in the thread then it wouldn’t have started it’s descent into chaos and madness. No, it would have just the same eternal whinging. I get fed up of it and I say so. 6 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Pilotman Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, Oldddudders said: Then there's "If only they'd do it in N Gauge"..... Works both ways, Ian. Just have a look at the last few N gauge product announcements by RevolutioN Trains. Hardly is the ink dry before the “how about doing these in OO” posts begin. Human nature, innit. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 3rd Rail Exile Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Oldddudders said: There is an argument for announcement threads to be locked immediately after posting. Every single one is swiftly accompanied by the completely pointless remarks about the price of this or that, compounded by the whingeing that not only has the "right" livery not been announced, but also this or that model has not appeared, and wouldn't it be great if they were to do so? The price is the price, although it may be discounted in due course. If a member thinks a certain model should be made, or a certain livery, perhaps contacting a manufacturer direct would achieve more than boring the rest of us. Then there's "If only they'd do it in N Gauge"..... Turning an announcement into another pointless wishlist is unhelpful at best. On balance I'm inclined to agree with this, but buried in the whingeing there are some sensible questions and useful comments about details of the announced models/liveries, which it would be a shame to lose. I'm lucky in that I can chuckle at both the frothing beforehand and the hand-wringing after announcements without taking either too seriously. If a model/livery I want is announced at a price I'm content to pay, I'll put a pre-order in somewhere. Otherwise I won't. I don't (generally) feel the need to tell the world about it, or about what I think should have been announced instead... 5 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILLIAM Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, Oldddudders said: There is an argument for announcement threads to be locked immediately after posting. Every single one is swiftly accompanied by the completely pointless remarks about the price of this or that.... But why is it so pointless to try and have a reasoned debate about product prices? My earlier comment on the price of the 58, which got badly bounced on, was in part trying to understand if there were any improvements over the previously issued Heljan model to help justify the significant increase in price (given there are no development, tooling costs etc.) over the normal inflation factors. Is it so wrong to debate such a thing on an open forum such as this? Is it really off topic to the new announcements? I can imagine it is frustrating to be a moderator sometimes when they're doing this 24/7 and I put the moment of bluntness down to this as these guys do a great job overall but it's a bit stange to be allowed to applaud or even laugh at such public rudness but not be able to discuss product pricing in an attempted constructive way. 1 7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffolk Rob Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 As an N gauger myself, I'll admit to frequently thinking (but not posting) "I wish they'd do that in N" but think this is the really exciting aspect of today's news- that the wide distribution network that the EFE brand brings gives Kernow the confidence to shrink one of their OO products. Hopefully it sells well and becomes the first of many including in due course, some of their locos but mustn't get ahead of myself. Rob 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, WILLIAM said: But why is it so pointless to try and have a reasoned debate about product prices? My earlier comment on the price of the 58, which got badly bounced on, was in part trying to understand if there were any improvements over the previously issued Heljan model to help justify the significant increase in price (given there are no development, tooling costs etc.) over the normal inflation factors. Is it so wrong to debate such a thing on an open forum such as this? Is it really off topic to the new announcements? I can imagine it is frustrating to be a moderator sometimes when they're doing this 24/7 and I put the moment of bluntness down to this as these guys do a great job overall but it's a bit stange to be allowed to applaud or even laugh at such public rudness but not be able to discuss product pricing in an attempted constructive way. Development / Tooling is only part of the cost of a model - you still have production costs - raw materials, labour, power and alternative products (i.e. what else could you produce in the production slot in place of this model that would make more money) - these all have a bearing on price. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zunnan Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 26 minutes ago, Western Aviator said: Works both ways, Ian. Just have a look at the last few N gauge product announcements by RevolutioN Trains. Hardly is the ink dry before the “how about doing these in OO” posts begin. Human nature, innit. I have to chuckle at this, even if it is poking a hornets nest, as even AY is guilty of this one and in print to boot! "we deserve a 4mm:1ft scale model to the same standards now" BRM Dec 2020 as written by Andy York. And I wholeheartedly agree with his sentiment! 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Pilotman Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Zunnan said: I have to chuckle at this, even if it is poking a hornets nest, as even AY is guilty of this one and in print to boot! "we deserve a 4mm:1ft scale model to the same standards now" BRM Dec 2020 as written by Andy York. And I wholeheartedly agree with his sentiment! Surely “the guv’nor” can do what he likes; it’s his train set after all Edited November 3, 2020 by Western Aviator 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted November 3, 2020 Author Moderators Share Posted November 3, 2020 31 minutes ago, WILLIAM said: But why is it so pointless to try and have a reasoned debate about product prices? Just go and read any previous announcement topic, they're all the same in that regard. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted November 3, 2020 Author Moderators Share Posted November 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, Zunnan said: "we deserve a 4mm:1ft scale model to the same standards now" Guilty as charged, it's an excellent model. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zunnan Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 Just now, AY Mod said: Guilty as charged, it's an excellent model. Excellent doesn't do it justice, there are just some models which are the epitome of what a scale stands for. Farish with their 8F have raised the bar over what should be in larger scales...OK, I may be very biased towards Stanier produce, but this one goes above and beyond! I'm now very guilty of topic drift... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 31 minutes ago, WILLIAM said: But why is it so pointless to try and have a reasoned debate about product prices? I think I see price as the province of the manufacturer. Even if every member of RMweb agreed on here that the price of this or that model was exorbitant, would they suddenly change it? No. In every case they would let the market decide. Dealers might agree, of course, so too many might sit in the warehouse, rather than on dealers' shelves. But only in extremis would the model be reduced in 'list' price, and then some considerable time after release. Things cost what they cost. Manufacturers need to create profits - and eat. As customers we have the ultimate sanction of not buying. By all means query model details or liveries or whatever about the model. Gaffes have been made, and can be exposed thus. But price is something each of us considers before purchase, and very little is achieved by agreeing in a forum that it is too high. 1 10 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 39 minutes ago, WILLIAM said: But why is it so pointless to try and have a reasoned debate about product prices? Personally, I just can't see what it would achieve. The manufacturer isn't going to change the price on the basis of the forum equivalent of a 'down the pub' chat (socially distanced and only until Thursday). Most of us on here, myself included, don't know enough about the way model railway pricing works, we generally react on a more personal, emotive level, indicating whether we personally find the model expensive, correctly priced or cheap. The expressing of an opinion is all well and good, but it's not going to change a thing in the real world of how much you will pay for that particular model in a shop. And a lot of folk do what to express an opinion about prices. No one is denying anyone a right to have an opinion, but I do sympathise with Andy Y, because he is seeing this all the time and I can well imagine how tiresome this can get! 4 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 Quite frankly the prospect of Bachmann doing a 4mm 8F is to be applauded.........but for gawds sake let's not add a wish list aspect into the mix. There's enough issues on here already. Rob. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 1 hour ago, WILLIAM said: But why is it so pointless to try and have a reasoned debate about product prices? It would probably be a good idea to have such a debate. At least it might lead to some people getting a better grasp of world economics. But not in a thread about a small group of products from a particular company. When it happens in almost every product thread it does get a bit over the top. I gave up trying to read the Hornby thread. I just wonder if these people gather in the supermarket to rant about the price of groceries. I just wish they would get the message. If you cannot afford it then ranting about it is not going to make any difference. I did manage to see enough here before things went down hill to salivate over the gate stock and even to positively dribble at the the idea of a second well tank. Bernard 1 7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 3, 2020 2 hours ago, NHY 581 said: but for gawds sake let's not add a wish list aspect into the mix. People always do. I wish they wouldn't. 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 Just now, Flying Pig said: People always do. I wish they wouldn't. Best of luck........pigs might fly..........oh, hang on. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shunny Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 Price debate in model railways is never going to go away but its hard to get some people to understand that even in our small hobby there are many factors affecting cost. My local shop owner was telling me some of things he has to look at such as profit margins differ for each manufacture and some give early settlement discount some don't, no of days to pay etc This can mean simple things to him like if stocks more or less of some manufacturers products or if he sells more but makes less money on each it is still worth stocking that item. In the context of this thread Heljan will charge a price for the class 58 on their terms and margins for sale by Heljan and the Efe model will then be produced and a price given to Bachmann who will add their own cut and retailer terms and margins. He did add some margins can vary by third or even a half from various companies and at the end of the day he needs to make money to stay open but as you can see not as easy to compare prices between companies by rrp alone. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, JSpencer said: Just gave Kernow a Well tank in preserved SR green order. Should fit in with my projected Bluebell layout. Has it ever actually run in preservation in that livery? It carried it whilst on display at Buckfastleigh before it was restored as 30587. Edited November 3, 2020 by Butler Henderson 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Harvey Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, PMP said: Those links go to a sign in section I think of the n forum, I can’t read them. See above post re King CADs... Apologies for giving a useless link. As others have pointed out the Shark topic under KR Models confirms that KR Models bought the CADs from the liquidators. KR Models’ post on February 18, 2020 is one example. Edited November 3, 2020 by Mike Harvey Added reference Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted November 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2020 5 hours ago, tender said: I wonder if the BWT has the original Dapol motor or the second generation DJM gutless coreless motor Yes I'm interested in that too. Also is it the same tooling that produced the Dapol and DJM versions of the model, or was it different tooling, or maybe an evolution of it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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