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Withdrawal of the Clans


Andy Kirkham
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It was very much a policy decision to eliminate as many classes as possible. Classes eliminated in December 1962 from Scottish Region stock included Stanier 3P 2-6-2T, Fowler 4F 0-6-0, Jubilee 6P 4-6-0, Royal Scot 7P 4-6-0, J39 0-6-0,  8F WD 2-10-0. In addition large numbers of Black Five 4-6-0, Ivatt 4MT 2-6-4T, Gresley V2 2-6-2, and  3 Duchess Pacifics were included. Not all of them were in poor condition!!

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On 06/11/2020 at 06:36, ardbealach said:

Sorry chaps - the postings mentioned Kingmoor and the Clans sent me scurrying for the photos in my library taken all those years ago.  I know we had a school trip to the Carlisle sheds in 1962, but I was living in Glasgow at that time so Polmadie was a regular Sunday afternoon visit - on our bikes.  I picked up the chimneys in the background when I looked at the images and I agree I should not have identified the location as Kingmoor.     Apologies  Alisdair 

 

Would love to see the photos of 46200 and 46201, sad though they may be. Thanks for the Clan photos.  edit and the sad 46247.

 

Cheers

Edited by robmcg
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32 minutes ago, robmcg said:

 

Would love to see the photos of 46200 and 46201, sad though they may be. 


46200 at Upperby in September 1963:

 

Princess 4-6-2 46200 'The Princess Royal' at Carlisle Upperby shed 7 September 1963

 

and in July 1964:

 

Princess 4-6-2 46200 'The Princess Royal' at Carlisle Upperby shed 29 July 1964

 

 

Edited by pH
To change links to images (mine).
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2 hours ago, Clagmeister said:

Was cascading not  a thing then?  The newish Clans and others surely could have displaced older more work hungry designs elsewhere.  I am always surprised they didn't move en masse to Kingmoor, where they knew them and had work for them.


I think it’s been mentioned on here before - apparently when the Scottish Region were known to be about to withdraw the Polmadie Clans, Kingmoor shed asked to have them transferred there. The request was turned down.  (Whether by ScR or LMR I don’t know.)

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10 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

It would but not by that much. On the other hand, that Clan has had a fair old front end knock and the buffer beam has been pushed back, so they could be anywhere.

 

I think the biggest contributor is the state of the track, looks like it drops quite a bit past the fishplate.

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7 hours ago, Caley739 said:

It was very much a policy decision to eliminate as many classes as possible. Classes eliminated in December 1962 from Scottish Region stock included Stanier 3P 2-6-2T, Fowler 4F 0-6-0, Jubilee 6P 4-6-0, Royal Scot 7P 4-6-0, J39 0-6-0,  8F WD 2-10-0. In addition large numbers of Black Five 4-6-0, Ivatt 4MT 2-6-4T, Gresley V2 2-6-2, and  3 Duchess Pacifics were included. Not all of them were in poor condition!!

 

Yes, it is operationally inconvenient to have a small class in traffic,  as not only may you need extra spares for maintenance in addition to the more numerous examples , there is all the extra crew training required to ensure there is always someone available.  Five or six years later it was more or less the same policy for the diesels, with a surplus of type 1 and  type 2 power the smaller classes were scrapped.  Of course in most cases the diesels built in smaller numbers had crap reliability which strengthened the case for their elimination.

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Ref PH's recent uploaded pics of 46200 - attached are my own from the same time of 46200 and also of 46201.  With the narrow Fowler tender on the locomotive stored behind 46200, it suggests our pictures are of the locomotive at same location.  As PH said I am sure our paths must have crossed all those years ago! (AM)   

46200 princess royal (2).jpg

46201 princess elizabeth (3).jpg

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Many, many moons ago, I was talking with several friends about BR’s policy about the introduction of diesel traction and withdrawal of steam.  One had worked for BRB at Marylebone in the 60’s and he said there (as stated before) was a rush by senior management to dispose of steam as quickly as possible and replace with modern traction, and we all know how well that went!

 

He also stated that there was also targets to withdraw steam traction by x numbers per month so when it was decided to withdraw the Polmadie Clan’s, they were just written off as per the monthly/yearly target, so their transfer to Kingmoor wouldn’t have come into the picture.  This would explain why the transfer was refused.

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Kingmoor found quite a few diagrams for its allocation.  As far I can tell Liverpool portions were common as were the daytime (ish) Perth turns and the Paddy.

 

I guess, although I've never looked into it in any detail, that they were replaced with 47's and line closures.

 

 

Edited by Clagmeister
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The Clans ran to Stranraer from Dumfries and Carlisle on troop trains, and when that line closed in 1965 there would have been less rosters for them out of Kingmoor.  

Was there not a notion for more Clans to be built for the Southern in the early Fifties?  Hence the present newbuild Hengst. (AM)

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4 hours ago, Clagmeister said:

Kingmoor found quite a few diagrams for its allocation.  As far I can tell Liverpool portions were common as were the daytime (ish) Perth turns and the Paddy.

 

I guess, although I've never looked into it in any detail, that they were replaced with 47's and line closures.

 

 


The kingmoor clans got around a bit....


Seen at Gloucester on at least two occasions 

 

 

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4 hours ago, ardbealach said:

Was there not a notion for more Clans to be built for the Southern in the early Fifties?  Hence the present newbuild Hengst. (AM)

To remedy the desperate shortage of light pacifics on the Southern Region of course.;)

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10 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

To remedy the desperate shortage of light pacifics on the Southern Region of course.;)


One encounter with 34043 was probably enough to convince S&D footplatemen that there must be something better.....

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3 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

To remedy the desperate shortage of light pacifics on the Southern Region of course.;)

 

I think the Clan's would have been ideal for the S&D had they been built, but we'll never know now :scratchhead:

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On 07/11/2020 at 23:21, Titan said:

there is all the extra crew training required to ensure there is always someone available

Type training was not a feature of steam engine operation. Any crew was expected to operate any steam engine without specific training.

 

Occasionally this could have dire consequences. An example. On 10th September 1940 Coronation Pacific 6224 in charge of a passed fireman and passed cleaner dropped a plug between Cleghorn and Carstairs. The fireman was killed in the resulting boiler explosion. These  inexperienced men had no real  experience of the type on main line work.

Edited by Caley739
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I know this is slightly off topic but what were Polmadies’s Clan’s routes that they were used on.  I know Kingmoor’s batch were well travelled, certainly getting to Stranraer via the Port Road and Preston, but I’m not sure about Polmadie’s.

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Earlier discussion of duties for the whole class:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/23890-standard-class-6-clans-operations/

 

Basically, the Polmadie engines were used on Manchester and Liverpool trains. Once those were dieselised, there wasn’t much work for them, though one regular duty was the daily pickup goods on the Gourock line until they were withdrawn at the end of 1962.

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16 hours ago, pH said:

Basically, the Polmadie engines were used on Manchester and Liverpool trains. Once those were dieselised, there wasn’t much work for them, though one regular duty was the daily pickup goods on the Gourock line until they were withdrawn at the end of 1962.

I think their decline commenced even before dieselisation when Polmadie aquired 5 Britannia Pacifics. They still retained the Clans essentially because no other shed would have them. There were several attempts to palm them off on Haymarket and St Margarets but they were always quickly returned with thanks but no thanks. So they seemed to have little diagrammed work and would only appear on weekend or special passenger workings with only freight train working for most of the time, or standing "not required".

Edited by Caley739
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10 hours ago, Caley739 said:

I think their decline commenced even before dieselisation when Polmadie aquired 5 Britannia Pacifics. They still retained the Clans essentially because no other shed would have them. There were several attempts to palm them off on Haymarket and St Margarets but they were always quickly returned with thanks but no thanks. So they seemed to have little diagrammed work and would only appear on weekend or special passenger workings with only freight train working for most of the time, or standing "not required".

 
Polmadie got its Clans in late 1951/early 1952. It got its Britannias in 1954. The Clans were in regular use for some time after the arrival of the Brits and were still there after all the Brits had been transferred away. I don’t think the presence of the Brits had much effect on Polmadie’s use of its Clans. 
 

I agree Haymarket and St Margaret’s didn’t seem too keen on keeping the Clans that Polmadie (and Kingmoor) sent them. But it’s been recorded, and mentioned a couple of times in this topic, that Kingmoor tried to have the Polmadie engines transferred there rather than have them withdrawn, so Kingmoor would probably have taken them if offered.

 

Just reading about these engines at Polmadie and remembering other allocations, it just seems that the shed didn’t feel it had much need of Class 6 steam power. It had also had Class 6 Jubilees at various times, but its last ones had gone to Corkerhill by (I think) early 1960. However, it kept its Class 7 Scots almost to withdrawal (2 went to Corkerhill for their last couple of months). None of its Class 8 Duchesses was transferred away after 1958, and those that went at that time were replaced later.

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On 05/11/2020 at 15:28, ardbealach said:

The postings on Clans reminded me of some b+w images in my files which I took in 1962 at Kingmoor Shed - on a school education trip - when four Clans were stored there, and withdrawn.  Images attached are

 

72001 Clan Cameron

72002 Clan Campbell

72003 Clan Fraser

72004 Clan Macdonald

 

Also stored and withdrawn there at that time were 46200 Princess Royal and 46201 Princess Elizabeth and 46247 City of Liverpool and some LMS Horwich Crabs.  Can upload these also images if you wish. (AM)

72001 clan cameron (2).jpg

72002 clan campbell (2).JPG

72003 clan fraser (2).JPG

72004 clan macdonald (2).jpg

I noticed that 72003’s tender still had the early crest on.  Was that the last one to carry it or did a few others keep theirs?

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