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Withdrawal of the Clans


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There were only ten 72XXX Clans - generally five were at Polmadie and five at Kingmoor. The Polmadie ones were all withdrawn  on Dec 29 1962, while the Kingmoor ones carried on until 1965/66.

 

What are we to make of this? Polmadie's simultaneous withdrawal suggests it was a matter of policy rather than the locos coming up for overhaul. At this time hardly any other Standards had been withdrawn so why this particularly targetted vendetta against one class? Even if Polmadie didn't want them, mightn't work have been found for them elsewhere? 

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Little logic to anything going on at times within BR.

For instance when Annesley depot and a large chunk of the GC London extension was transferred to the midland region they withdrew a lot of the ex LNER 2-8-0s based there, replacing them with mostly Stanier 8Fs which were often seen as inferior.

If Yeadon is to be believed, and I think it's the accepted authority, some of the locos were only a few months out of works, one I think, something like 3 weeks!

Another mass withdrawal was the L1 2-6-4T locos at Colwick, a dozen or more if memory serves on the same day as your Clans

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This has been the subject of great debate within the fraternity.  Clearly the class was something of a niche machine given its power-rating and general heft, and it probably was a square peg to the district controllers - a bit of an oddity, neither one thing or another, and easily substituted by other common types, like Black 5s, Jubilees and not to say Type 2 diesels.  In such a way one can imagine it being given (ironically) a non-standard cachet relatively quickly and thus always prey to falling out of favour as soon as circumstances allowed. 

 

Reputedly, Kingmoor was able to wrangle some excellent work from its charges, if footplate crew tales of the era are to be believed.  Nonetheless, by 1966 and with the vast majority of the remaining, big sister class, Brits allocated to either that shed or nearby Upperby, it's easy to see how faced with a Death Steam loco surplus, the fires would be dropped for good on the English Clans too.

Edited by 'CHARD
tpyo
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Dont forget of course the significance of the date. A few days later the BTC was no more and the British Railways Board began life. A number of Southern classes were also culled in late 1962 prior to the BRB coming into operation.

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My only photo of a Clan (unknown) heading north through Garstang & Catterall station (Between Preston & Lancaster) around 1965/6.

 

A Clan usually headed the afternoon Manchester - Glasgow express which ran to Wigan via Tyldesley in the early 60's.

 

1585388952_GarstangandCatterallnorthboundClan.jpg.14b290a5e6b0c05b07e27092ea390465.jpg

 

Brit15

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1 minute ago, slilley said:

Dont forget of course the significance of the date. A few days later the BTC was no more and the British Railways Board began life. A number of Southern classes were also culled in late 1962 prior to the BRB coming into operation.

 

Why do you think that was, a paperwork/ inventory exercise possibly?

 

I heard of something similar occurring when the RoSCos were set up pre-privatization - with Porterbrook having the few surviving Class 50s on its books - although they were hurriedly withdrawn before the business was actually hived-off.

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Anecdotally, and we've been here before, Kingmoor quite liked them because they were rostering them on Class 6 turns, not putting them on Class 7/8s and wondering why they couldn't perform. 

 

The ScR Duchesses were withdrawn at the same time. Was this the point at which Kingmoor itself was transferred from the ScR to the LMR ? I lose track...

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16 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Anecdotally, and we've been here before, Kingmoor quite liked them because they were rostering them on Class 6 turns, not putting them on Class 7/8s and wondering why they couldn't perform. 

 

The ScR Duchesses were withdrawn at the same time. Was this the point at which Kingmoor itself was transferred from the ScR to the LMR ? I lose track...

The regional boundaries were redrawn as at 1 Jan 63 when the BRB started officially so Kingmoor going to the LMR is quite feasible. 

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On 04/11/2020 at 00:40, Andy Kirkham said:

There were only ten 72XXX Clans - generally five were at Polmadie and five at Kingmoor. The Polmadie ones were all withdrawn  on Dec 29 1962, while the Kingmoor ones carried on until 1965/66.

 

What are we to make of this? Polmadie's simultaneous withdrawal suggests it was a matter of policy rather than the locos coming up for overhaul.

 

16 hours ago, Wheatley said:

The ScR Duchesses were withdrawn at the same time.


The withdrawal was a result of policy. As well as the  Polmadie Clans, on that date all the 11 Scottish Region Jubilees were withdrawn from Corkerhill, all the 5 Scottish Region Royal Scots were withdrawn from Polmadie and Corkerhill, and the first 3 Duchesses to be withdrawn went from Polmadie. (The other 6 Scottish Region Duchesses went gradually from Polmadie over the next couple of years - none survived to the mass withdrawal of the last members of the class at the end of the summer timetable of 1964.) 

 

By that date - the end of December 1962 -  all of the Britannias previously shedded in the Scottish Region had been transferred to English sheds from Polmadie and Corkerhill. That meant that, with the exception of those 6 Duchesses at Polmadie, all ex-LMS and Standard express locos had gone from the Scottish Region, leaving only ex-LNER express engines shedded there. Some A2s were transferred to Polmadie, whether they were meant as replacements for withdrawn Duchesses I do not know, but they were not well received and did not last long.

 

Why the cull? I’ve never seen it properly explained.  By then, the Scottish Region had more express steam locos than it needed (Clans were being used on pickup goods), since all (?) Scottish-English expresses were diesel hauled, so some had to go. But why leave only ex-LNER engines? It wasn’t for standardisation, since there were A1s, A2s, A2/3s, A3s and A4s. I’ve read that at Nationalisation, more ex-LMS staff ended up in the operating departments in the Scottish Region, while ex-LNER people predominated in management. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but the mass withdrawal at the end of 1962 would have been a management decision.

 

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Withdrawal by a list sent from Control was not confined to the Clans. Sheffield Millhouses was told to withdraw all its re built Patriots and re built Scots on a given date. This annoyed the sheds boiler smiths as they were in the process of completing a. re tube one of the re built Patriots. Because the shed was now in the Eastern Region the locos were not transferred away. The Caprotti Stanier Black 5s suffered a similar fate, Control instructed all sheds that no money was to be spent on any repairs. Southport received a loco a week out of Crewe works which needed some adjustment to the brake gear, this was not authorised and the loco withdrawn 2 weeks after leaving Crewe works.

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The postings on Clans reminded me of some b+w images in my files which I took in 1962 at Kingmoor Shed - on a school education trip - when four Clans were stored there, and withdrawn.  Images attached are

 

72001 Clan Cameron

72002 Clan Campbell

72003 Clan Fraser

72004 Clan Macdonald

 

Also stored and withdrawn there at that time were 46200 Princess Royal and 46201 Princess Elizabeth and 46247 City of Liverpool and some LMS Horwich Crabs.  Can upload these also images if you wish. (AM)

72001 clan cameron (2).jpg

72002 clan campbell (2).JPG

72003 clan fraser (2).JPG

72004 clan macdonald (2).jpg

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1 hour ago, ardbealach said:

The postings on Clans reminded me of some b+w images in my files which I took in 1962 at Kingmoor Shed - on a school education trip - when four Clans were stored there, and withdrawn.  Images attached are

 

72001 Clan Cameron

72002 Clan Campbell

72003 Clan Fraser

72004 Clan Macdonald

 


Sorry, but I have to ask - are you sure those pictures are taken at Kingmoor? After withdrawal the Clans were stored for a time at Polmadie, then moved to Parkhead shed. I thought they had gone from there to Darlington for scrapping.

 

And they still have all their rods fitted - those were usually taken off before engines were towed ‘dead’.

 

P.S. Interesting that 72003 kept the old emblem till withdrawn.

Edited by pH
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It's a long time since I visited Kingmoor (1966), but I cannot recall there being tall chimneys in the area.  IIRC, and sometimes I don't,  the shed was on the northern edge of the city and surrounded west, east, and north by open, rather bleak, country stretching away to the Solway bridge; it was a hot, hazy day and visibilty wasn't good, but those chimneys are not much more than about a quarter of a mile or so in the background and I reckon my memory would have at least a suggestion of their presence.

 

On the WR, any shed allocated a diesel had to 'trade in' 3 steam locos of similar capacity (or so I was told at the time by a neighbour who worked in the Traffic Office at Queen Street, then Marland House.  So, a Hymek meant that 3 Halls, Granges, or 28xx had to be taken out of service.  At least the shed had some control over which locos were taken out of service, and inevitably the dogs went first and the good 'uns were kept as long as possible. 

 

It sounds as if, on the LMR and ScR, the decision was probably made based on the number of diesels coming into service, perhaps on the same 3 to 1 basis (the idea was that a diesel can remain in service 24/7 whereas the steam locos could only manage an 8 hour duty, so 1 diesel could do the work of 3 steam locos), but made higher up the management food chain and the decisions not left to the shed foremen.  'OK, we don't need those Clans, we've got enough D200s now, scrap 'em.  Instruct the sheds', who of course did what they were told.  The locos in the photos are not in service but not yet withdrawn, they are in store (though it is unlikely any of them ever turned a wheel in anger again) , as evidenced by the sacking over the chimneys, which prevented the fires being lit.

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Sorry chaps - the postings mentioned Kingmoor and the Clans sent me scurrying for the photos in my library taken all those years ago.  I know we had a school trip to the Carlisle sheds in 1962, but I was living in Glasgow at that time so Polmadie was a regular Sunday afternoon visit - on our bikes.  I picked up the chimneys in the background when I looked at the images and I agree I should not have identified the location as Kingmoor.     Apologies  Alisdair 

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I have since had another look at the pictures of the Clans - and the doubt from postings that they were taken at Kingmoor.  I have gone back to the original strips of six black and white images where they came from, and all were taken from the same 36 exposure film. All I have on the description on the cover of the film file is the year 1963 with images taken at Polmadie and Kingmoor - and others from Corkerhill and Dawsholm.  The images included 42320, 42830, 42882, 42883 and 42884 - all 12A Kingmoor engines, and of 46200 and 46201 and 46247 which I presume were 'parked up' with the Clans .  So yes I go along with 66A Polmadie for the Clans.  And definitely not Parkhead  (Alisdair)

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15 minutes ago, ardbealach said:

... and of 46200 and 46201 and 46247 which I presume were 'parked up' with the Clans .  


46200/01/47 were all Carlisle engines (Kingmoor or Upperby) when withdrawn. 46200 was still dumped at Upperby in the summer of 1964. So the pictures of those 3 engines would have been taken at Carlisle, not Polmadie.

 

The tall chimneys in the background of the pictures of the Clans have appeared in previous pictures on here of engines in Polmadie shed yard. They are at the Corporation incinerator in Polmadie Road.

 

Since you were a regular at Polmadie on weekends in the early 1960s, there’s a good chance we passed each other somewhere in the shed or yard. I wasn’t there as regularly as you, but managed quite a few visits 1962-66.

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Excellent stuff.   I have it on very good authority from an ex Canal and Kingmoor friend of mine that the Clans were superb machines when given the correct load of a class 6. Strangely the doubters and commentators never say this, often finding themselves disappointed when the clan not surprisingly can't do the work of a class 7 or 8.

 

A little note to the info above, City of Liverpool wasn't withdrawn until June 63.

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5 hours ago, The Border Reiver said:

 

Aye, I was a Carlisle lad and went round all the sheds there at least 4 times a week.


Lucky you!

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Going slightly off topic, but following up Clagmeister's post, I hope you don't mind that I now attach the two photographs of City of Liverpool from 1963.  These images must have been taken around the time the locomotive was settling into retirement.

 

And back on the topic of the Clans 72000 - 72004 were Polmadie locomotives and 72005-72009 were Kingmoor engines according to my Autumn 1962 Locoshed Book.  (AM) 

46247 city of liverpool 01 (2).jpg

46247 city of liverpool 03 (2).jpg

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I just had another look at the Clan images I posted recently. On the image of 72002 I am surprised at the difference in the height between its front buffers and the height of the buffers of the tender to the beastie in front of it.  I presume the tender would drop on its springs when it was laden with water and coal.    (AM)

72002 clan campbell (3).JPG

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