Building The 1947 Great Western TPO

[The Fatadder]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Cheap Airfix B Sets pop up quite often, including on Hattons pre-owned pages. I've bought a few (and a few Bachmann Colletts) just for the bogies.

I do keep looking, but so far the price hasn’t quite worked. Will be keeping an eye out going forwards.  What I need is the exhibition circuit to open up again, as without postage sourcing cheap coaches is so much easier.    I think most likely I will end up ordering from either comet or 247 in January depending on what else I need at the same time...

 

 

[The Fatadder]

7 hours ago, Wenrash said:

This is an eye opening series of posts!

Is there anything wrong in using the Lima I/F Siphon to form a base for the above vehicle in this train?

I think I am right in saying that the Lima model is an O33, but it is from a very small batch with that door planking.  Hopefully someone else can advise exactly which lot of diag O33 it is as I have two of them!   The model comes with DC brakes and BR bogies, although I’ve replaced the latter with Collett 9ft bogies. 
For the GW TPO there were 3 O33 allocated to the TPO pool (to the same lot as my build with leaver brake), along with 2 O22 and an O11 (the latter also available RTR with incorrect bogies)

 

if I didn’t have the kit I would have used to the Lima model with a new chassis. 

[Coach bogie]

On 24/11/2020 at 22:54, The Fatadder said:

 

 

There were rumours a couple of years back that the ex 247 TPO kits had ended up in the Stevenson range, does anyone know if that is the case?  Would be good to confirm if there is a reliable source for the missing L25

This was also in the Hammond range. I did build one but rarely used it as it was really too late for me so sold it on. It did appear via 247 for a short time. Saying that, it has so few windows, it would not be a major scratchbuilding task, especially as you have the Hammond recessed doors for reference. The underframe is the same as the Hawksworth passenger stock from Hornby.

 

Enjoying your progress. it took me several years to complete my full TPO train.  I have duck out some Trevor Charlton sides for a L14 which I might make a start on.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[WillCav]

7 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

I think I am right in saying that the Lima model is an O33, but it is from a very small batch with that door planking.  Hopefully someone else can advise exactly which lot of diag O33 it is as I have two of them!   The model comes with DC brakes and BR bogies, although I’ve replaced the latter with Collett 9ft bogies. 

Hi Fatadder

 

It doesn't seem to be the entire lot that have the Lima planking. I have only found one photo of that planking - and the Lima underframe is wrong for it (wrong brakes).

 

There also seems to be an O33 variant with narrower planking - probably a WWII economy measure.

 

If you want an easy modification for the Lima O33, put some shell vents on the roof and it's an O59 (if you can ignore the planking).

 

Will

 

P.s. thanks for sharing your progress on this thread - I'm finding it really interesting and it may push me into digging out the soldering iron!

[The Fatadder]

44 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

This was also in the Hammond range. I did build one but rarely used it as it was really too late for me so sold it on. It did appear via 247 for a short time. Saying that, it has so few windows, it would not be a major scratchbuilding task, especially as you have the Hammond recessed doors for reference. The underframe is the same as the Hawksworth passenger stock from Hornby.

 

Enjoying your progress. it took me several years to complete my full TPO train.  I have duck out some Trevor Charlton sides for a L14 which I might make a start on.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Thanks, I see what you mean about it being a fairly easy scratch build.  If i cant source any sides I will keep that in mind.  I havent built the Hammond L24 so I will take some measurements of its doors for my records.   Thanks again for selling me the set of coaches!   

 

I think for the time being I will be sticking with my spring 47 formation with the LMS coach I think.  Free up some modelling time to complete other projects.

 

1 hour ago, WillCav said:

Hi Fatadder

 

It doesn't seem to be the entire lot that have the Lima planking. I have only found one photo of that planking - and the Lima underframe is wrong for it (wrong brakes).

 

There also seems to be an O33 variant with narrower planking - probably a WWII economy measure.

 

If you want an easy modification for the Lima O33, put some shell vents on the roof and it's an O59 (if you can ignore the planking).

 

Will

 

P.s. thanks for sharing your progress on this thread - I'm finding it really interesting and it may push me into digging out the soldering iron!

That makes sense of something that had been troubling me, as I was under the impression that the lima model (with its unusual planking was like you say a wartime measure.) which would mean lot 1651 the same as the kit.  Rather sinks my plan of using the left over components from the kit to modify the Lima brake gear with the spare DC bits.  Though I suspect I will ignore the doors on one and do the DC conversion and convert the other to leaver brakes.  A conversion to O59 sounds sensible for a little variation (and I'd be interested to see the differences to an M34.   I could sertainly do with a copy of Slin, but given the prices it goes for I keep holding out for the long promised 2nd edition.....

 

Once lockdown has finished I will head over to Halfords and get a tin of etch primer needed to finish off priming, though I suspect I may be out of luck weather wise now even for that...

[WillCav]

58 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

A conversion to O59 sounds sensible for a little variation (and I'd be interested to see the differences to an M34.

 

Simplifying it a bit:

O59 is an O33 with shell vents in the roof, M34 also has Louvres plated over or made into windows.

 

The window arrangement on M34s is a bit random - I have found pictures of both sides of one and they don't match.

 

Slinn has more info on both.

 

Will

Edited November 26, 2020 by WillCav
To make more sense!

[The Fatadder]

Back to work on the O33, last night I was having a quick look at the other TPO's working out what task to do next and ended up getting distracted by the temporary bogies under the O33.   As mentioned previously the etched bogie frame included with the kit is designed to work with the MJT sideframes.  I had a set of Comet frames, however these come with the passenger steps moulded as part of the side frame.  I had looked as to whether it would be possible to remove these (as the etch has the smaller non passenger stock steps as part of the sub frame.  Likewise I have Mainline / Bachmann frames which have the same issue, unfortunate given they are sold separate to the coaches.  However the temporary bogies I had been using are clearly of Airfix origin now I have even less of a clue where they came from, the Airfix bogie has much finer steps that do not overlay any of the "core" frame.

 

A little time later with the scalpel later and all of the steps (along with the moulded brake gear) has been removed and this evening I will make a start on building the bogies.  As an aside I need to buy some wheels now in order to get it running, so if any P4 modeller has a bunch of RTR 14mm coach wheels they want rid of please drop me a PM.

 

Moving back to the L22, detailing has now been completed on this coach with the final parts now added (corridor connections and  connector wires).  I have also fitted the bodyside steps, so far only on the collector equipment side (because the other side will not be seen).  I am trying to confirm where the dynamo belt goes, typically at my RMWeb Didcot visit when I took a lot of photos of their L23 I didnt photograph the underframe.....    

I am about to place another order with Comet as I need another batch of vac cylinders and dynamos, I think I may well just place the bogie order at the same time...  

Edited November 27, 2020 by The Fatadder

[Mike G]

12 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

 I am about to place another order with Comet as I need another batch of vac cylinders and dynamos, I think I may well just place the bogie order at the same time...  

Hold your horses Rich, I have an absolute mountain of Comet bogies, what size do you need? If I have them, they're yours for the postage. I'll never use them - I have been meaning to put them on Ebay....

 

But I do have a question on the L22, were the rain strips really that thick?

 

Stay safe

 

Mike

[The Fatadder]

13 hours ago, Mike G said:

Hold your horses Rich, I have an absolute mountain of Comet bogies, what size do you need? If I have them, they're yours for the postage. I'll never use them - I have been meaning to put them on Ebay....

 

But I do have a question on the L22, were the rain strips really that thick?

 

Stay safe

 

Mike

Will drop you a pm in a moment

 

as for the strips on the roof, I’ve looked again and would agree definitely too wide.  Will get them removed later and try again, though I’m now debating after looking at photos If it’s worth bothering adding them at all...

[Mike G]

RIch

This is what I use for my coaches.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/c20/

 

Mike

[The Fatadder]

The O33 is now complete, having assembled the Airfix / kit hybrid bogies this afternoon.  It now needs a coat of etch primer (which has now been sourced) and it can go in the stock box awaiting spring and painting weather.  Once painted it will need retracted corridor connections, card inserts to remove the see through louvers on the sides.  I realised after taking the photos that I hadnt fitted buffers, so these have now been glued in place! 

Edited November 28, 2020 by The Fatadder

[The Fatadder]

On to the K17

 

The combination of the arrival of a Hornby clerestory brake, plus getting Autocad running on the new laptop has led to some real progress on the K17 project.

 

The plan for the build:

Modify the bogies to remove the footsteps

Modify the ends to the offset TPO (this will also involve repairing the damaged area where the old corridor connection was)

New sides (with the recessed doors)

New clerestory sides

Rebuild the chassis (battery boxes, new trussing)

 

After some preliminary work removing the corridor connections and the bogie steps (along with removing the rest of the boards from the chassis).  It was time to start work on the drawing, an hour's work in CAD with some side on photos of 1125 and I had a drawing (I have since matched it up against a copy of the drawing in Russell and I am very happy with it.)  The drawing is based upon the two photos in Russell showing both sides of 1125 circa 1950.  This has enabled me to get the plated over panels accurate to period.  

The next step was to brake the drawing down into two layers, both to be cut in ten thou one as a flush overlay and the other for the beading.

 

These now need to be run though the cutter, but before fitting it will also need to have 40thou plates fitted to the windows.  My plan is that I will glue the beading to the flat sheet before gluing to the model. 

 

[The Fatadder]

The state of play so far

 

all of the window blanks have now been fitted, along with opening out the hole for the new window on the guards door.

 

tomorrow I will hopefully get the sides cut (if I can find a big enough sheet of 10thou) and cut/prep the new door openings.   Once in place it was given a skim of filler to fill any remaining holes.

 

I have forgotten to fill the shallow recess left by the duckets on the original brake coach, must remember to add tomorrow before doing any more... 

[The Fatadder]

The next task was to cut out the new doors, fortunately with the thick Hornby sides there was plenty of rigidity with 4 big holes in the sides.  Further to this I also

cut a rough hole in the side for the additional guards door window.

 

with that done I cut and fitted the first two of the new side overlays, once all 6 are in place it will then be fitted with the beading overlay and the new doors (once I’ve got them cut...)

[The Fatadder]

This was followed by repeating the process for the other side.  After cutting the side for the right hand panel I spotted a mistake in my drawing in that I had only included the droplight outline not the window (this should have been a 3 layer section).  Fortunately I spotted it before hitting cut.  While the drawing was open I also removed the redundant parts and re-nested (along with adding some spares for the doors.  

Hopefully I can get the cutter out this evening and get it cut and finish off the build...

 

 

I have been thinking about the bogies, would be interested to hear if anyone makes the spring / axle box casting for the Dean bogies.  I have been having thoughts about taking an etched bogie frame, a silhouette cut bogie frame fitted with white metal castings.  All be it I have now finished cutting the steps off one side of the bogies.  While they are available on shapeways they are incredibly expensive, and there is still a big question mark on Shapeways quality (in terms of the layering that you get with the ALM process).  While the only other provider of 10ft Dean Bogies (247) includes the footboards so is not a massive improvement on the Hornby ones. 

 

 

[Coach bogie]

I have used these from Dart castings on a 10ft bogie etch that had the castings missing. dart have various length of springs.

 

https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2258.php

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Fatadder]

thanks Mike,

 

now thinking I could fairly easily scratch build the central bars (dampers?)  which when matched with the MJT springs could be fitted to the Hornby bogies with all the detail filed off.  
 

but for now it’s back to the model, and currently the silhouette cutter is running (making a lot of noise) cutting out the beading for the top layer (along with the remaining side / door sections)

[The Fatadder]

After about 40 minutes cutting I now the first two panels have been installed 

 

it’s a bit of a pain with the long lengths that are missing their uprights (the first panel was a lot easier given the plates panel at the bottom.

 

The doors have all been laminated together and will be fitted to the crude backing piece seen in the photo 

all being well tomorrow will see a completed coach.

 

 

while the cutter was going I made a start on the underframe, cutting away all bar the queen posts (which were drilled to accept 0.5mm wire). I need to find some more info out before adding vac cylinders and battery boxes...

 

[The Fatadder]

Another hours work this morning and the body is now pretty much complete, with just one more door awaiting fitting.

 

The beading continued to be an absolute pig to fit, I think eventually I will end up replacing the sides with an etch to do the job properly  however it will do the job for now. 

 

The chassis needed only minor modification to clear the doors (adding a 45 degree cut to the top 1.5mm or so of the underframe moulding.)   

 

Moving onto the clerestory section.  I have two potential solutions here, so I am starting with the easy option of filling in the holes on the Hornby moulding and then adding an overlay.  So after adding a backing plate I have filled all of the existing holes, which will hopefully be hard enough to add the overlays this evening. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by The Fatadder

[The Fatadder]

Looking at the photo I posted I think the coach looks a lot better in the flesh, however it does rather show up the issues using 0.5mm width cuts on 10thou plasticard for long components.    The 40mm with panel on the left hand side has worked well, but it was a) short and b) had a plated over lower panel for added strength.  The centre panel had less strength (which clearly shows in there being slightly more waviness present, it didnt help that there was an error in the drawing in the plated over centre double panel which saw it cut out.  Easy enough fix as the cuts are so fine, but did mean a loss of rigidity.  The final right hand panel looks the worst, unsurprisingly as it is purely formed of 0.5mm beading (the door / plated panel are separate in order to get the door gaps)    

 

I think once i have finished adding the remaining door and the roof section this evening, I will prime the sides and give it a coat of Triumph Russett Brown tomorrow.  While this gives more of a Wartime reddish brown than GWR chocolate, my logic is that it will give a consistent colour to view how the sides look before spraying in GWR chocolate in the spring along with the rest of the rake. 

[The Fatadder]

The shadow in the previous photo certainly seems to be making it look worse than it is in reality, however I do think the second line from the top in the right hand panel is going to have to be replaced.  The other side looks worse (not the end of the world given it will never be seen, but still...)  This is because the centre panel has no uprights along its length, meaning you have 5 long thin lines of .5mm plastic.  The issue is compounded because after cutting you have to peel the plastic off the sticky base sheet (which distorts the plastic.)  One solution (and how I repaired the worst part on the other side) was to use 20thou by 10 thou Evergreen plastic strip.  This is milled rather than cut and is perfectly flat.  It also holds a straight line a lot better.   Using this along with the cut end sections (which include the radius in the corners), makes a big difference so I might replace a couple more lines. 

 

However that said I still think that the best solution is likely going to be commissioning an etch, and to that end I am planning to start converting my master drawings into etch format over the next few weekends.  The sides wont be too bad as they just need the infill adding and colours mapping out, but the doors will need a complete redraw to work out the folds etc.  This will be a little more tricky than just copying the Hammond parts given the need to add the beading on.  So my thought is a two part etch, a rear part with the folds for the sides (with the window droplights integrated), and an overlay with the beading detail (with half etched base).  I will post some drawings once they are complete.

 

Going back to an earlier comment in this thread about the simplicity of the L25, I think if I get an etch done I will likely draw that up as well...

[Neal Ball]

Truly amazing story to follow though. 
 

From drawing it up, based on photos and latterly a plan, then cutting it all out and then finally seeing the model take shape, is great to see.

 

Good luck with the etches. Although I do wonder, if the plastic was painted, would you notice from the normal viewing distance?

 

Good work Rich.

[57xx]

Nice to see the O33 completed Rich. I really need to get my mojo back and resume work on my 2 kits. I keep stalling even on the smaller Siphon C, although that has been more of a scratch aid when it came to the chassis.

[The Fatadder]

On 10/12/2020 at 07:47, Neal Ball said:

Truly amazing story to follow though. 
 

From drawing it up, based on photos and latterly a plan, then cutting it all out and then finally seeing the model take shape, is great to see.

 

Good luck with the etches. Although I do wonder, if the plastic was painted, would you notice from the normal viewing distance?

 

Good work Rich.

It’s probably good enough looking at it in primer, but would be better still as an etch.  I need to etch the L25 van anyway so might as well do the K17 at the same time.  As I think the combined cost would not be much more.  (The biggest portion of the cost always used to be the tool, and that wouldn’t be hugely different between one one set of sides and two.) 

 

13 minutes ago, 57xx said:

Nice to see the O33 completed Rich. I really need to get my mojo back and resume work on my 2 kits. I keep stalling even on the smaller Siphon C, although that has been more of a scratch aid when it came to the chassis.

was very pleased to have finished it, Really regretting not  using one of the previous O63 kits now I’ve seen the first lot was introduced in late 47!