Heljan announce Class 104 DMU in OO gauge

[50A55B]

I saw a 104 working on the Hertford East branch in the early 80s, when the power was off for engineering work.

[Roadrails]

Now that is something. They ran to Buxton a lot you know(!)

There is a pic of a white stripe set to Clayton West, and a black stripe did the Stockport Stalybridge

[SRman]

Having converted a Hornby 110 to a 3-car 104 many years ago, then adding a 104 DT from a Hornby TS, I would like a better model, and Heljan's looks to be promising.

In the 1980s I had a very stirring ride in a pair of 104 power twins from Manchester Victoria via the Oldham loop to Preston. The acceleration was electric, and arrival at every stop was early so we had to await time. The Hornby conversions I did are in plain BR blue, reflecting those memories, but I might be tempted by either an earlier green Heljan model, or possibly one of the NSE sets as being a bit closer to "home" for my London area SR-based layout.

[adb968008]

9 hours ago, SRman said:

In the 1980s I had a very stirring ride in a pair of 104 power twins from Manchester Victoria via the Oldham loop to Preston. The acceleration was electric, and arrival at every stop was early so we had to await time. The Hornby conversions I did are in plain BR blue, reflecting those memories, but I might be tempted by either an earlier green Heljan model, or possibly one of the NSE sets as being a bit closer to "home" for my London area SR-based layout.

Are you sure it wasn't to let the engine cool and put the bits back on, while the driver poured a cuppa, had a fag and put his feet up ?

Edited November 13, 2020 by adb968008

[montyburns56]

 

Even third rail modellers can justify buying one....

 

Croxley Green 1987

 

 

Watford West 1986

 

 

[Johann Marsbar]

On 12/11/2020 at 21:29, Kieranthetrain said:

They were used up until 1982 on the branch and based out of Stratford I think.

 

Southminster in May 1977...

 

 

--and Braintree, May 1977...

 

[Market65]

Well, in early June, 1987, an LMR power twin arrived at Beverley Station on a service from Scarborough to Hull. It was DMBS and DMSL. I travelled to Hull in the DMBS. It then went on to form the next service to York - I think the mid afternoon departure. I recall it rode very smoothly, and the luggage racks vibrated in tune with the engines. 
So here’s a photo’ of the twin arriving in Beverley Station, which is followed by one of the interior of the DMBS.

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

 Rob.

[nigelwright7557]

Nice to see someone making new DMU models.

DMU's bring back happy memories of the Keswick line which I managed to go on the last day of operations.

Managed to get myself on the video "Trains to Keswick" by Lapwing productions.

Typical grey day on the Keswick line and some snow around too.

Sadly didnt take my camera.

After the line closed they started a model railway exhibition in Keswick station in around 1981.

 

 

[Atilla]

In the early 1980s there was at least one hybrid 104/105 set operating in East Anglia (I remember travelling on it on the Cambridge - Ipswich route on various occasions).

[birdseyecircus]

Hull Paragon Station. 16th May 1985.

 

Paul

[TravisM]

3 hours ago, Atilla said:

In the early 1980s there was at least one hybrid 104/105 set operating in East Anglia (I remember travelling on it on the Cambridge - Ipswich route on various occasions).

What you think the chances of them working well with a Bachmann 105 and a Heljan 104?

[Roy Langridge]

5 hours ago, jools1959 said:

What you think the chances of them working well with a Bachmann 105 and a Heljan 104?

Somewhere near zero...

Speed profile will be different, couplings different etc. Which is a real shame. 
 

Roy

[SRman]

7 hours ago, jools1959 said:

What you think the chances of them working well with a Bachmann 105 and a Heljan 104?

 

I'm not sure they'd work well togetehr on DC, but with a bit of work in DCC they could probably be adjusted to play nicely together, without too much fighting.

[BR(S)]

14 hours ago, Atilla said:

In the early 1980s there was at least one hybrid 104/105 set operating in East Anglia (I remember travelling on it on the Cambridge - Ipswich route on various occasions).

 

Some pictures here of 104/108 and 104/101/117 hybrids:

 

http://www.hondawanderer.com/Misc_DMUs.htm

[BR(S)]

More hybrid sets here:

 

https://railcar.co.uk/data/set/L704

[Kieranthetrain]

Most of the units running in the Thames Valley in the early 90s were running as hybrids as they were coming to the end of the life. Also lots of hybrid sets appeared went the 15x sprinter were delayed.

[Broadway Clive]

13 hours ago, jools1959 said:

What you think the chances of them working well with a Bachmann 105 and a Heljan 104?

On DC I've regularly mixed Bachmann 105 or 108 with Lima and Black Beetle based Silver Fox 105s (3 X 2) without any trouble.

[walrus]

13 hours ago, jools1959 said:

What you think the chances of them working well with a Bachmann 105 and a Heljan 104?

Shouldn’t be a problem on DC if one of them is an unpowered trailer unless there are coupling issues?

[Zunnan]

13 hours ago, jools1959 said:

What you think the chances of them working well with a Bachmann 105 and a Heljan 104?

 

Depends on the hybrid. A 104/105 twin, if it requires a non motorised vehicle from one and motorised from the other then it only becomes a coupling issue, and you'd hope both are NEM compliant so that becomes a non issue.

 

If however they go the class 117 route with bespoke conductive couplers, hybrids are a bit (lot) more tricky.

 

Running two powered units together shouldn't present too many issues either, as long as they behave relatively similarly. With DCC that should not be an issue as you can speed match and consist them. On DC you just want them to behave broadly the same and they should be fine.

 

The only issues with mixing DMUs I have are with my Dapol 122s, they have a higher starting voltage and lower operating speed than anything else I own...so (almost) anything running with them would wheelslip until the 122 moves off, and then be held back by the 122s lower overall speed throughout the range of the controller. With a Heljan 128 and Dapol 122 combo, thats just an ugly tug of war that the 128 will win all day long, the 128 will drag the 122 off long before the 122 begins to turn a wheel...Needless to say, my 122s operate alone because of their running characteristics, but the 128 is broadly similar to everything else so I have no issue tagging it on the the head or tail of another unit. I'd hope the 104 behaves much like the 128, with maybe not quite as much heft behind it perhaps!

[cravensdmufan]

11 hours ago, Kieranthetrain said:

Most of the units running in the Thames Valley in the early 90s were running as hybrids as they were coming to the end of the life. Also lots of hybrid sets appeared went the 15x sprinter were delayed.

My photo from the early 90s.

 

Who'll be the first to replicate this set up in 4mm?  Photo when the time comes please!

 

Edit:  I don't know why my photo has come out on here with horizontal shady lines across the middle - the image appears perfect on the file on my laptop.  I tried removing it and loading it again but the lines still appear on here.  

  

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by cravensdmufan
comments re: poor image quality

[Kieranthetrain]

14 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

My photo from the early 90s.

 

Who'll be the first to replicate this set up in 4mm?  Photo when the time comes please!

 

Edit:  I don't know why my photo has come out on here with horizontal shady lines across the middle - the image appears perfect on the file on my laptop.  I tried removing it and loading it again but the lines still appear on here.  

  

 

The class 121 and 117? (51385?) will be the easy bit the 104 to 117 will be more difficult but it mainly depends on what type of connector Heljan decide to use.

[Zunnan]

Unless Heljan mimic the Bachmann PCB and coupler mapping, the 117 DMS would need a significant rewire in order to get the lighting and motor functioning away from the DMBS PCB which it is reliant upon, as well as provide a coupler in the inside end. In fact, it would probably be easier to mount the DMS shell on a 121 chassis and have to deal with the decoder socket and massive gap in the seating!

 

The 117 is a cracking model, but having had a few units since they landed, I dislike the coupling arrangement even more now than I did when this arrangement was first disclosed. Please Heljan, no bespoke couplings between trailers on the 104! I like to be able to run my hybrids!

[Kieranthetrain]

Is the main reason for the strange coupling arrangement so they can have 2 motors on 1 decoder as in my opinion 2 motors is a bit over the top. A coupling like the Bachmann class 101 is good as you only need 1 decoder and you can still mix it with other ones like the class 105/108 if you don't mind having 2 decoder.

 

Putting a class 117 DMS shell on a class 121 chassis might need a bit of modification but making a small amount of seating shouldn't be that difficult.

[Zunnan]

I'd surmise that the coupling arrangement of the 117 is to exploit the functionality of modern decoders for all of the lighting functions the model has, which is fine if you want to make the most out of what DCC can offer. But that does create its biggest drawback when the subject is something that in reality was very flexible in its use.

 

It removes the possibility to run a DMS/DMS/DMBS set, which was a rather common event with the Tysley sets in use here and was something that I wanted to be able to replicate. Yes, I could quite easily do a DMBS(121)/DMS/DMBS...but those were really quite rare here unless the bubble was replacing a DMBS for a DMBS(121)/TCL/DMS formation or strengthening a 3 car to a 4 car in place of the more usual 4 car formation of DMBS(class 116 or 117)/TS(class 115 usually, sometimes a declassified 116 TC)/TSL(class 127)/DMS(class 116 or 117). The 121 standing in for a DMBS also can't be done without surgery as the DMS won't run and lights in TCL/DMS won't operate without connection to the DMBS PCB. It was more unusual to see a set from all one class than it was a hybrid of bits from everywhere, only really the GWR and reggie rail sets stayed together, even the NSE 117 sets wound up running in DMS/DMS/DMBS form. That DMS/DMS/DMBS formation could also have released the TCL into 'preservation' service with a little industrial tank engine, but even that is a no-go without a fair bit of work. I'm holding out for a damaged set to appear so I don't feel as reluctant to go ripping into them...one day maybe.

 

I can see why they offered the model as they have done it, and reluctantly I agree that it was probably the better option in order to provide a modern standard of functionality. For me the formation is more important than the functionality, and I accept that I'm probably in the minority there. I'd still much rather have had the class 108 style arrangement and fitted a decoder in every coach to be able have that massive flexibility the real things were afforded.

 

We shall see how the 104 fares, they were rare birds around here, but they did show up on occasion so I wouldn't mind a set to dissect into 101 and 108 hybrids.

[cheesysmith]

Be interesting to see the powered chassis. Would be a easy win using a longer Clayton chassis with the bogies from the 128. Or will it be more like the replica chassis, as taking it apart it looks like it was made in the same factory, with the same design of bogie mounting to both.