Modelling the ATSF in 1970 in HO

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Greetings all.  I'm doing a bit of informal research into a compact HO US model and am wondering about the period 1968 - 1970.  Although I have a long-standing interest in American Model Railroads, and most of my small collection of railway books are Kalmbach Layout Ideas and Track Plans, my prototype railroad knowledge is patchy and very limited.  The period 1968 - 1970 however seems to be generating some interesting ideas, and I'm wondering if I'm on the right lines?  Am I getting my facts in order?:

 

1.  Passenger Trains - there is a short window between the cancellation of RPO contracts in Sept 1967 and the formation of Amtrak in 1971 that is throwing up photos of shorter or pike-sized passenger trains, still run by separate railroads but struggling without Mail traffic.

2.  Freight Cars and Trains - Cabooses were still required, and while 50' boxcars had become standard, roof walkways were not yet banned (1974?) and I'd expect a fair number of 40' cars were still in use (reducing the risk of anachronisms).  Intermodal trains were just getting started - but trailers (TOFC?) rather than containers?

3.  Locomotives - I quite like second generation diesels (early U-series?) and F-units, which I think would still be in wider use?  I'm not such a fan of earlier Alco RS units or later "Dash" power (my terminology may be completely incorrect of course).

4.  Modelling - while I find earlier periods equally interesting, and am very much enjoying following @JZ's Lucyville, Ava City and Western HOn3 thread for example, a realistic assessment of my own personal budget (money, time and space) as well as availability of second-hand items in the UK, suggests a more modern period might be easier.  I'm not an expert modeller, and am quite happy with Walthers' Cornerstone Kits (@SonOfMike's Apocrypha, USA is another current layout I really like, but my modelling is not to that standard).  I am committed to HO but happy with DC.

5.  Why ATSF?  Although my own US travels have been mainly in the North-East and no further than Chicago, one of my favourite all-time layout ideas was the MR Project Layout centred on Pauls Valley, Oklahoma: the Washita and Santa Fe (articles 1982-1984 and in "6 HO Railroads you can Build").  Although I've been mainly focused on plans for my parallel interest in UK GW Branch Lines* this year, when it came to a "dream layout" idea that was still my inspiration.  I'll happily admit to liking red Warbonnet F7s.

 

I'm not making any commitments or promises - I've caught myself out too often before, so this is really a placeholder in case anything develops (though I do have a birthday coming up).  Currently I have an urban HO Diorama making slow process.  Pre-lockdown, I'd been encouraged by @Allegheny1600's discussion thread: Where has everyone gone? , not only by the topic, but also by the level of interest and support there is on this Forum (hence this post).  And whenever my modelling 'mojo' evaporates, it is reading up on US modelling that recaptures my interest first, so maybe I should do more.

 

Because of my domestic set-up (ie: no dedicated layout space), indoor modelling is mainly a Summer activity (windows wide open, long hours of daylight), so work on my GW Branch Line project has slowed - I'd really wanted to make more progress before the Winter, but a combination of factors (including a need for landlord roof repairs!) have rather overtaken me for this year on that front and I have time for some background reading / internet browsing instead.

 

Any thoughts?  Keith.

 

* I guess this also shows I'm quite happy with cliches .

[Oldddudders]

The ATSF is a particularly legit railroad to model of course. 13k miles from Chicago to the West Coast, and branches, does offer plenty of scope for a choice of terrain and type of traffic. I'm a bit out of touch, but the typical US model used to be of the transition era, and I have shelves full of models that reflect my buying into that concept, too, although not very much of mine is ATSF. Your timeframe is later than that, but equally valid, of course.

 

Within limited space, freight is going to be your principal traffic, as was and is the case USA-wide. And in your era the passenger train was more than on its uppers, thanks to the Boeing 707 in the late-50s and the Interstates a bit before that, so any passenger train is going to be short - and infrequently seen. The frequency of passenger or freight service seen on a typical UK BLT would be wholly extravagant. 

 

Your perceived window makes sense, but the relatively-affluent Santa Fe was busy buying modern power and disposing of its first-generation units by then, so don't overdo the F-units. Even the iconic PAs were on the slide, with the famous quartet already seeing a new career on the Delaware & Hudson by 1967. OTOH, I think the sort of secondary line you might envisage would not be heavy on new power, so maybe Geeps 7/9 beckon. Their remanufacture into Cleburne F7s was still in the future. A switcher would be nice, too. Given that they still had at least one 1943 VO1000 on the books, as well as many elderly EMD switchers, you have a choice. 

 

Use of DC is not a problem on a layout that will not realistically see many trains on-scene at any one time. If you ever want sound, though, that works a great deal better with DCC, simply because you have easy access to a greater range of effects. But if you use the best of wiring regimes in construction, then later conversion to DCC will never be difficult. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have often felt tempted to model US railways. I like their style of layout and the quality of locomotives and rolling stock is so good.

 

But it is such a huge and complex subject to learn about and avoid errors.

[Oldddudders]

2 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I have often felt tempted to model US railways. I like their style of layout and the quality of locomotives and rolling stock is so good.

 

But it is such a huge and complex subject to learn about and avoid errors.

And it is all too easy for us to copy others' ideas which prove to be wrong! That said, the knowledge base this side of the Atlantic is obviously a little less, so we may never get found out....

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

A switcher would be nice, too. Given that they still had at least one 1943 VO1000 on the books, as well as many elderly EMD switchers, you have a choice. 

Good thought - would it be correct that Switchers would also be in blue and yellow by the late 1960’s: I think the black with stripes liveries were more 1950s?

[Oldddudders]

4 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Good thought - would it be correct that Switchers would also be in blue and yellow by the late 1960’s: I think the black with stripes liveries were more 1950s?

Limits of my knowledge, but I think so. 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I have often felt tempted to model US railways. I like their style of layout and the quality of locomotives and rolling stock is so good.

 

But it is such a huge and complex subject to learn about and avoid errors.

Don’t worry - I’ll make plenty of mistakes.  If I can avoid too many obvious / easily avoidable ones in any modelling I might do by thinking before I buy then I’ll be happy.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[EmporiaSub]

I model the Santa Fe, in Kansas, 1968. Essentially a branch line, with the obligatory one train a day in each direction. Combines were on the way out, but a caboose is essential.

Plenty of F units, and GP7's and 9's.

I rely on quite a substantial library I've built up over the years.

 

https://www.blogger.com/u/1/blog/posts/2013977473314576196

Edited November 7, 2020 by EmporiaSub

[Wendell1976]

On 07/11/2020 at 06:42, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Good thought - would it be correct that Switchers would also be in blue and yellow by the late 1960’s: I think the black with stripes liveries were more 1950s?

 

Keith, the Santa Fe Railway used blue and yellow switchers from the 1960's all the way into the 1990's. Here's some links to some Santa Fe switchers:

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/419001/

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/418077/

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/436683/

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/520259/

 

Wendell

Idaho, USA 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Wendell1976

[mdvle]

17 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

1.  Passenger Trains - there is a short window between the cancellation of RPO contracts in Sept 1967 and the formation of Amtrak in 1971 that is throwing up photos of shorter or pike-sized passenger trains, still run by separate railroads but struggling without Mail traffic.

 

How strong is the need to have passenger stuff on your layout?

 

And it's second part question, what size layout are you planning/dreaming?

 

Reason, most passenger equipment in the US is in the 85' length range, which can eat up track space quickly even for a pike-sized train unless you do something like a single car RDC (though the ATSF only had 2).

 

Thus the reason why many/most American modellers don't do passenger stuff.

 

Quote

2.  Freight Cars and Trains - Cabooses were still required, and while 50' boxcars had become standard, roof walkways were not yet banned (1974?) and I'd expect a fair number of 40' cars were still in use (reducing the risk of anachronisms).  Intermodal trains were just getting started - but trailers (TOFC?) rather than containers?

 

My understanding is containers are a 1980s and later thing, so yes TOFC would have been the intermodal of your proposed era.

 

How precise do you wish to attempt things?  Do you want to research things so your roster is as accurate as you can make it, or is this more of a having fun and run stuff that interests you?

 

Quote

3.  Locomotives - I quite like second generation diesels (early U-series?) and F-units, which I think would still be in wider use?  I'm not such a fan of earlier Alco RS units or later "Dash" power (my terminology may be completely incorrect of course).

 

What is it about the dash-2 line that you don't like?

 

Reason for asking, it is really a bit of an artificial distinction given that the units the dash-2 line replaced were in many ways almost identical in appearance, and were built starting around 1960.

 

I'm not an expert, but for example the SD40 and SD40-2 are substantially the same in appearance, so if you don't like the looks of the SD40-2 you presumably don't like the SD40 either, which could be a problem (though you could always say have a branchline that doesn't use the units you don't like, which may in turn give you more flexibility in terms of era).

 

The website I link to at the bottom will give you an idea of when locos first arrived so you can decide if that works for you, or if you want to be more flexible.

 

Quote

I am committed to HO but happy with DC.

 

Can you make a successful layout with DC only?  Absolutely.

 

However depending on what you want/layout size DCC can make American modelling a lot easier and/or a lot more fun.

 

If you are modelling anything that had more than a single loco on the train, then DCC has obvious benefits.

 

If you are really interesting in doing switching, then DCC/Sound can add a lot given the American rules - things like sounding the horn/bell before moving a train, for every grade crossing, etc (this is why the new Genesis cabooses from Athearn have a sound option)

 

There can be valid reasons to not go down the DCC route, but just consider what you want to do with the layout.

 

Quote

I'll happily admit to liking red Warbonnet F7s.

 

As good a reason as any.

 

This website (the author has done pages for most of the railroads) offers a good overview of the ATSF and a roster of locos that at least gets you a start on when a given model of loco was introduced.  There is also a system map, though usually of the 1950 or so era (and the use of Google images will often bring up a better link to the map that is larger).

 

https://www.american-rails.com/atsf.html

Edited November 8, 2020 by mdvle

[JZ]

19 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I have often felt tempted to model US railways. I like their style of layout and the quality of locomotives and rolling stock is so good.

 

But it is such a huge and complex subject to learn about and avoid errors.

If you went for a fictional shortline, you could get away with anything, almost. Leave loco's in original livery and just paint out the old road name, even leaving the original number. On a trip through the mid-west in 2014, this sort of thing was seen at several of the largest grain elevators. Set it in the 1960's and you could have your single passenger railcar, or even a single loco hauled coach.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Thank you - some helpful and interesting thoughts and replies already: some things to think through.  All much appreciated.

 

One thing I do know - I like passenger operations, and have always felt that US passenger workings are more interesting than UK:  I’ve written elsewhere about the switching of head end cars, and Division point engine changing (in the steam era), for example.  I’ve already been given some very old unfinished models of 85’ cars for a diorama - very impressive, but long!
 

For me personally, I’ve had a look and I could live with the overhang on a 2’ radius curve (which is about their minimum anyway) if I do any more with them.  Low / no platforms get round the unsightly gap with high-level platforms. Space is a bigger issue: it has been the ruling constraint in planning my other projects, but I’m thinking long-term here.

 

On the subject of passenger traffic, I hadn’t realised the Santa Fe only had two RDC units (actually - originally I didn’t know they had any, then starting seeing Rapido promo videos, and assumed they must have had a fleet of them!).  Thank you to @mdvle for that info.  I couldn’t afford a Rapido set on my budget, but they do make good videos!

 

Budget will always be a key consideration - I did have a big clear out of UK stuff a couple of years back, but we were moving house and I was raising money for a new fridge-freezer (which was fine - I also enjoy food), so taking my time will help.  I have my GW branch line projects to work on too, for which I already have what I need.

 

I’ll check out all the links - exactly the pointers I was after.  Thanks again, Keith.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, JZ said:

If you went for a fictional shortline, you could get away with anything, almost. Leave loco's in original livery and just paint out the old road name, even leaving the original number. On a trip through the mid-west in 2014, this sort of thing was seen at several of the largest grain elevators. Set it in the 1960's and you could have your single passenger railcar, or even a single loco hauled coach.

 

Indeed. After Oldddudders post, I started looking at the ATSF map for potential branchlines and looked at Lamesa, Tx. Towards the end of its existence, it became a shortline much as you describe.

Much of the USA is just so flat. Nice and easy for modular layouts but a bit uninteresting as a landscape on a layout. So I may take another look at the map for somewhere more scenic.

[PaulRhB]

As Wendell said Railpictures has some useful filters on their search including Fallen Flags section that includes the ATSF and there’s a year filter too  

It won’t show the search results for some reason but I used

ATSF

1970-79

(also below the ‘find photos’ button)

photos only

90 to a page 

https://www.railpictures.net/index.php

 

You’ll get pages of results and you can select individual years too. 

Edited November 8, 2020 by PaulRhB

[long island jack]

you could model the early days of the Santa Fe Southern 

 

https://trn.trains.com/railroads/2006/07/mixed-train-from-santa-fe

[Keith Addenbrooke]

15 minutes ago, long island jack said:

you could model the early days of the Santa Fe Southern 

 

https://trn.trains.com/railroads/2006/07/mixed-train-from-santa-fe

Brilliant!  Have to admit I’d never heard of this shortline - just that the ATSF mainline didn’t go through Santa Fe itself.

[F-UnitMad]

22 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

admit to liking red Warbonnet F7s.

 

5 hours ago, mdvle said:

As good a reason as any

Absolutely. Go for it.

[PaulRhB]

22 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

I'll happily admit to liking red Warbonnet F7s.

Should enjoy this then  I’ve got a four unit set A-B-B-A  and coaches with loksound decoders installed. Happiness is guaranteed!

[JZ]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Indeed. After Oldddudders post, I started looking at the ATSF map for potential branchlines and looked at Lamesa, Tx. Towards the end of its existence, it became a shortline much as you describe.

Much of the USA is just so flat. Nice and easy for modular layouts but a bit uninteresting as a landscape on a layout. So I may take another look at the map for somewhere more scenic.

Things is about the huge swathe of land that is the mid-west, is that you don't need backscenes, just the odd tree and lots of sky.

[EmporiaSub]

What isn't there to like about passenger trains....

A Bill Gibson photo, taken in 1970, in Denver, with Train No.191 to La Junta.

Steam Generator Car, Baggage Car and Chair Car.

 

[mdvle]

8 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

One thing I do know - I like passenger operations, and have always felt that US passenger workings are more interesting than UK:  I’ve written elsewhere about the switching of head end cars, and Division point engine changing (in the steam era), for example.  I’ve already been given some very old unfinished models of 85’ cars for a diorama - very impressive, but long!

 

I wonder if you have a conflict here (again, depending on how accurate you wish to be).

 

You say you have chosen your era because the mail contracts were gone, so shorter trains, yet the switching of passenger operations interests you and that switching was largely based around those head end cars that are missing in your era.

 

8 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

On the subject of passenger traffic, I hadn’t realised the Santa Fe only had two RDC units (actually - originally I didn’t know they had any, then starting seeing Rapido promo videos, and assumed they must have had a fleet of them!).  Thank you to @mdvle for that info.  I couldn’t afford a Rapido set on my budget, but they do make good videos!

 

Perhaps watch out for the P1K RDC's, the mechanisms weren't all that quiet is my recollection but they were reasonable models from a exterior looks perspective.

 

8 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

Budget will always be a key consideration - I did have a big clear out of UK stuff a couple of years back, but we were moving house and I was raising money for a new fridge-freezer (which was fine - I also enjoy food), so taking my time will help.  I have my GW branch line projects to work on too, for which I already have what I need.

 

I’ll check out all the links - exactly the pointers I was after.  Thanks again, Keith.

 

For any not aware a search on Google for "<location> sanborn maps" will bring up the LOC options (if they exist) for the fire insurance maps for the place you are interested in.  Copyright means you won't get anything newer than about 1920 online but it can be a start in many cases, though by your era much of the track would likely have been removed as industries went to road transport.

 

[Johann Marsbar]

The first time I visited the US, Back in December 1981, I was staying in  what turned out to be a "back of beyond" place called Independence in Kansas. The place was served by Santa Fe and Missouri Pacific on 2 seperate lines at that time and the first photos I took of railroads in the USA were of what seemed to be the daily(?) freight on the Santa Fe line - though there may have been other trains during the night.

The "local" is shown in the photos below, consisting of 2 locos, 2 road trailers on flat cars, two boxcars and a caboose - an ideal modellers length train!

The former station building was in use as offices, and the line still seemed to be signalled at that time, with a colour light gantry signal (displaying a green aspect) visible in the background of the "loco" shot.

 

 

[Yardman]

Its a time period and road I have modelled for some time, both in HO and G scales.

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Some really helpful responses once again, thank you: all helping frame some thinking.

 

A few thoughts to reply (I'll not fit them all into one post):

 

On 07/11/2020 at 11:50, Oldddudders said:

The frequency of passenger or freight service seen on a typical UK BLT would be wholly extravagant. 

 

Very true - and I'm as guilty as anyone on that front with my UK modelling.  I have always liked the way operating is often approached in US Model Railroading - it is one of the attractions.  

[Keith Addenbrooke]

22 hours ago, EmporiaSub said:

I model the Santa Fe, in Kansas, 1968. Essentially a branch line, with the obligatory one train a day in each direction. Combines were on the way out, but a caboose is essential.

Plenty of F units, and GP7's and 9's.

I rely on quite a substantial library I've built up over the years.

 

https://www.blogger.com/u/1/blog/posts/2013977473314576196

 

Hi there - I may have a problem with the link: it just takes me to the Blogger home page so I can set up my own blog.  Is there an alternative link?  Sorry to be a nuisance.