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Modelling the ATSF in 1970 in HO


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I have seen “depot” used to refer to the actual building(s) for passengers (and freight), with station referring to the whole site.

No doubt others have seen it the other way round...

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One thing you will find about US railroading is they weren't very creative with terms, they use the same terms to mean very different things in different contexts.  Don't know if overseas railroads are more specific.

 

Context means a lot in this discussion.  If you are discussing the building that the passenger buys his ticket in, where the agent or operator works, then there isn't really a difference between a station or a depot, station is a slightly more encompassing term and depot is in many cases used to describe a smaller station.    About the only place either term is "rigidly" defined is with respect to the rules.  The vast majority of rules define a station as a place named in the time table.  In that case a "station" isn't a building, its actually a sign, a name sign of the location.   Its possible that a station can have just a post with a name on it.  Stations are also used in billing.  Stations are defined in tariffs, and shipments are billed to a station, not a town.  A depot or town is undefined by railroads.  Context, context, context.  But the terms can be used interchangeably regarding structures, less so if its something that has to do with the operating rules, or billing or some other paperwork type thing.

 

If you really want to get confused, if you are at a location where there are two buildings a "passenger depot" and a "freight station", the depot will probably have the place name on it and the freight building would not.  That would mean, according to the rules,  the building not called the "station" (the depot) would be the station and the building named the station (the freight station) wouldn't be the station.  Clear as mud?  :D

 

If you really want to be confused, there are multiple uses and definitions of the term "block", it can means several different things as a verb, noun or adjective.

 

The Rock was a fascinating line because it was a scrappy "also ran", it had dozens of paint schemes and all sorts of oddball engines.  The ATSF was more of a standard railroad because is had the money to afford to "do it right".  The Lehigh Valley was another road that couldn't figure out how to paint its engines, it had odd little variations in its "as built" paint schemes.  One of my favorite quotes was a Chicago Great Western VP who described the CGW as, "A mountain railroad built in the prairie serving a traffic vacuum."

 

Edited by dave1905
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1 hour ago, dave1905 said:

One thing you will find about US railroading is they weren't very creative with terms, they use the same terms to mean very different things in different contexts.  Don't know if overseas railroads are more specific.

 

Context means a lot in this discussion.  If you are discussing the building that the passenger buys his ticket in, where the agent or operator works, then there isn't really a difference between a station or a depot, station is a slightly more encompassing term and depot is in many cases used to describe a smaller station.    About the only place either term is "rigidly" defined is with respect to the rules.  The vast majority of rules define a station as a place named in the time table.  In that case a "station" isn't a building, its actually a sign, a name sign of the location.   Its possible that a station can have just a post with a name on it.  Stations are also used in billing.  Stations are defined in tariffs, and shipments are billed to a station, not a town.  A depot or town is undefined by railroads.  Context, context, context.  But the terms can be used interchangeably regarding structures, less so if its something that has to do with the operating rules, or billing or some other paperwork type thing.

 

If you really want to get confused, if you are at a location where there are two buildings a "passenger depot" and a "freight station", the depot will probably have the place name on it and the freight building would not.  That would mean, according to the rules,  the building not called the "station" (the depot) would be the station and the building named the station (the freight station) wouldn't be the station.  Clear as mud?  :D

 

If you really want to be confused, there are multiple uses and definitions of the term "block", it can means several different things as a verb, noun or adjective.

 

The Rock was a fascinating line because it was a scrappy "also ran", it had dozens of paint schemes and all sorts of oddball engines.  The ATSF was more of a standard railroad because is had the money to afford to "do it right".  The Lehigh Valley was another road that couldn't figure out how to paint its engines, it had odd little variations in its "as built" paint schemes.  One of my favorite quotes was a Chicago Great Western VP who described the CGW as, "A mountain railroad built in the prairie serving a traffic vacuum."

 


Thank you - that took some careful writing (it does all make sense).  
 

I think there are also cases where a passenger Station has no railroad track there at all - passengers could be taken by bus for the first / last part of their journey.  If I’ve read up right, that may even have been the case at Santa Fe itself (of all places): there was a branch line, but also a Station from where passengers were taken by bus to the mainline some miles away?  I get the impression the passenger Station was downtown, not by the tracks? (I could be wrong of course).
 

One of the things I’ll have to watch is that most of the small collection of reference books / articles I have at the moment themselves date from the 1980s or earlier (back to the 1940s), so some things will have changed a lot - but others not at all.

 

The Lehigh Valley is an interesting line - and seems to be quite well represented by model manufacturers, although I believe passenger traffic ended in 1961.

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A plan is starting to emerge (thank you all for the help), but I could do with some advice to confirm the identity of this rather fine unit:

 

8670D074-32D6-44B8-943E-8160F0E9ACFB.jpeg.7c17a3761db04e255fc129e5c612b226.jpeg

 

 

Please forgive the rushed photo - and the ballasting (It’s an OO layout where I was using up some oversized ballast).  I have to wait for the end of the month to receive this properly but, as a second-hand unit, it made sense to test it and get it running before it was hidden away.

 

It looks to me like a GP9 - which would be perfect, but from what I can find out from a quick internet search, ATSF 8517 was a six-axle U33C.  I’ve found other photos of this HO Athearn model with the same number, suggesting it has not been renumbered.  The box it came in is an Athearn blue box, but labelled as a UP GP9.

 

My general research question is this: did numbers sometimes get swapped between ATSF locos, are some models less likely to have correct numbers, or is there an explanation I’ve not thought of?  It could be useful to know for future reference.
 

(After my birthday I can think about curing the light bleed beneath the cab.  I did need to remove the body to get it running as the connector clip was loose, but the retailer confirmed they’d tested it before posting so I was confident it wasn’t a big problem, and it glides beautifully now.  It needs couplers - I knew they were missing.  For £37.50 plus shipping from a reputable store I took the plunge).

 

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3 hours ago, dave1905 said:

The Rock was a fascinating line because it was a scrappy "also ran", it had dozens of paint schemes and all sorts of oddball engines.

One of the more bizarre was Alco DL109 #621. She was nicknamed 'Christine' because her 1941 Alco innards had been swopped in 1953 for an EMD 567 prime mover. This happened about the same time the world's first sex-change operation was news. The beneficiary of that was called Christine Jorgensen.

 

The Rock had a whole set of Rocket streamliners - splitting and joining the Denver and Colorado Springs portions of the Rocky Mountain Rocket at Limon, Colorado, seems to have been an exercise in operating complexity -  and in the rosy glow of post-war investment had set up a deal with Southern Pacific for a new luxury train to the Pacific Coast - the Golden Rocket. Since the two lines already collaborated on the Golden State this seemed a sure bet. SP got cold feet, however, leaving RI with a set and no train. The Pullman-Standard observation car for this service, 481 La Mirada, remains my favourite US passenger car. 

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1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

It looks to me like a GP9 - which would be perfect, but from what I can find out from a quick internet search, ATSF 8517 was a six-axle U33C.  I’ve found other photos of this HO Athearn model with the same number, suggesting it has not been renumbered.  The box it came in is an Athearn blue box, but labelled as a UP GP9.

 

This site (if accurate) seems to indicate the number is wrong

http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/CrossetGene/ATSF_all-time diesel roster/index.htm

 

but I am not a Santa Fe expert.

 

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

My general research question is this: did numbers sometimes get swapped between ATSF locos, are some models less likely to have correct numbers, or is there an explanation I’ve not thought of?  It could be useful to know for future reference.

 

So, not ATSF but certainly both CN and CP have renumbered units for various reasons, so it is possible.

 

But it is also possible that the model may be incorrect - it really only is the last 15 or so years that the manufactures have made an effort to be correct about what they are making and selling (for example, back in 1966 Athearn started selling a "SW1500" that was actually a SW7 - and the incorrectness didn't get corrected until Athearn eventually released a correct SW1500 in the 1990s.

 

Tony Cook (editor of several White River publications) appears to have this website that lists Athearn have putting out a GP9 model with 8517 as a road number

http://tycotrain.tripod.com/athearnlocomotives/id129.html

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2 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

It looks to me like a GP9 - which would be perfect, but from what I can find out from a quick internet search, ATSF 8517 was a six-axle U33C.  

ATSF #8517 was indeed a U33C. Built 8/1969, builder's number 37090. The whole class of 25 was withdrawn 12/1984 and returned to the lessor. 

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49 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

This site (if accurate) seems to indicate the number is wrong

http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/CrossetGene/ATSF_all-time diesel roster/index.htm

 

but I am not a Santa Fe expert.

 

 

So, not ATSF but certainly both CN and CP have renumbered units for various reasons, so it is possible.

 

But it is also possible that the model may be incorrect - it really only is the last 15 or so years that the manufactures have made an effort to be correct about what they are making and selling (for example, back in 1966 Athearn started selling a "SW1500" that was actually a SW7 - and the incorrectness didn't get corrected until Athearn eventually released a correct SW1500 in the 1990s.

 

Tony Cook (editor of several White River publications) appears to have this website that lists Athearn have putting out a GP9 model with 8517 as a road number

http://tycotrain.tripod.com/athearnlocomotives/id129.html


Thank you - two more really useful resources.  
 

Interestingly, Tony Cook lists this model as a 1996 release, and just behind it in my photo you can see the top of a Hornby Pannier Tank which I bought new in 1996 (Margate built).  There is no comparison in the running quality - I’d not realised the GP9 was quite such an old model, but it still ran like new when tested.

 

In terms of the early questions as to how realistic I’m aiming to be, renumbering won’t be a top priority for me to start with - if it’s from the right era and in the right livery that’ll do me for now (and be an improvement on some of my UK GWR stock).

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20 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

ATSF #8517 was indeed a U33C. Built 8/1969, builder's number 37090. The whole class of 25 was withdrawn 12/1984 and returned to the lessor. 


Thanks for checking this - the GP9 is the one I need.  The U33C would be a bit too big and a bit too new for the sort of ideas I’m looking at (although it is just about pre-1970).

 

Part of me is wondering if I’m taken by this Santa Fe blue and yellow freight livery - as well as the red warbonnets - because blue and yellow was the prevailing loco livery in the UK when I were a lad?  (different shades, but still what I expect to see?)

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5 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

The Lehigh Valley is an interesting line - and seems to be quite well represented by model manufacturers, although I believe passenger traffic ended in 1961.

 

The "Valley" was probably the only railway in the world that became visually better (at least in the eyes of enthusiasts) the more it sank into a financial mire...

 

Cheers NB

 

 

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1 minute ago, Nick_Burman said:

 

And arrived at many places after other, healthier, railways had already entrenched themselves...

 

 

Cheers NB


Good point - thanks.  Amongst many other places, I think the Rock Island served both Atchison and Topeka, for example.

 

They also ran the streamlined “Aerotrains” (I think that’s what they were called - to me they look more like cars on rails from the front than any other train I can think of).  I also believe however that they only took them after other roads turned them down: same point in a different way perhaps?

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The Aerotrains were GM's attempt to build a "universal" passenger body, the coach bodies were basically GM Bus bodies and windows on a heavy underframe with a "modern" (futuristic) looking power car.  They were not successful.

 

The big thing that killed the Rock was that it attempted to merge with the UP and held off a lot of capital projects waiting for the government to approve the merger.  However the bureaucracy at that time was so onerous that it took years and years for it to be approved.  By that time the UP decided it wasn't interested any more and the Rock was left high and dry.  That lead to the bankruptcy and sale of the Rock to many midwestern railroads (MKT, SP, CNW, (among others) and a gazillion short lines).  It also was so horrible a process that the US revised its merger approval process and changed its railroad supervision, forming the Surface Transportation Board to replace the Interstate Commerce Commission.

 

What killed the LV is collapse of the anthracite coal market (oil and electric heating and power generation).  By the 1960's 90% of its revenue was carried on 10% of its route miles.  Most of the other smaller coal routes were circling the drain by then too (LNE, LHR, CNJ, NYOW).

 

At one point in the mid 1970's the ATSF and MP looked at merging but decided not to.  That led to the UP/MP merger in response to the BN merger which in turn cause the BN and ATSF to merge, which then ended up with the UP/SP merger.

Edited by dave1905
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An iconic ATSF unit of the early 1970's was the CF7.  The ATSF had a gazillion F3 and F7 streamlined units.  They recylced many of them by cutting down the cab and removing the shell, replacing it with a beefed up underframe and a GP style long and short hood.  They were used as branch line and yard engines and continued into the 1990's and 2000's as short line engines.

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I agree that in general the Midwest portion of America is flat and boring, I should know having been stuck in this region for 25 years now.  There are, however, small pockets of respite from the depressing monotony.  
 

I suggest the ATSF branch to Sun City, Kansas as an example.  It is closed now but served a gypsum mine.  Trains ran to Medicine Lodge which is still active with a short line serving the town.  Google gypsum hills region of Kansas to get an idea of the geography.  
 

Another option would be the Burlington Northern and Union Pacific lines that ran through the Flint Hills region just east of Wichita.  BN ran through Augusta, Beaumont and on east while UP ran through El Dorado on out to Yates Center.  A small section of the UP line from Wichita to El Dorado is still active, passing by my house before going through Greenwich, Benton and Towanda and terminating in a small yard in El Dorado.

 

There are other examples but hopefully this gives a couple of options.

 

Nick

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Thank you - some helpful information: I didn’t know the ICC got replaced, for example.

 

Regarding the CF7, I think they’re also the units @Oldddudders referred to earlier:

 

On 07/11/2020 at 11:50, Oldddudders said:

Their remanufacture into Cleburne F7s was still in the future.  

 

On 10/11/2020 at 23:31, dave1905 said:

An iconic ATSF unit of the early 1970's was the CF7.  The ATSF had a gazillion F3 and F7 streamlined units.  They recylced many of them by cutting down the cab and removing the shell, replacing it with a beefed up underframe and a GP style long and short hood.  They were used as branch line and yard engines and continued into the 1990's and 2000's as short line engines.


I think Cleburne was the name of the shop that did the conversion?  Compared to other hood units, the cabs seem larger to me as a way of identifying them.  
 

One of the books I’ve ordered to update my collection is a modeller’s guide to diesels.  I don’t expect it to cover every variation, but certainly the main types.  It’ll be especially helpful for units built more recently than the other books I already have of course.  This is my all-time favourite (from 1944):

 

spacer.png

 

I read my Dad’s copy so often as a kid I can still quote parts of it - I managed to find my own copy a few years ago.  Not much on diesels (though Al Kalmbach’s own layout ran overhead electrics).

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6 hours ago, Nick said:

I agree that in general the Midwest portion of America is flat and boring, I should know having been stuck in this region for 25 years now.  There are, however, small pockets of respite from the depressing monotony.  
 

I suggest the ATSF branch to Sun City, Kansas as an example.  It is closed now but served a gypsum mine.  Trains ran to Medicine Lodge which is still active with a short line serving the town.  Google gypsum hills region of Kansas to get an idea of the geography.  
 

Another option would be the Burlington Northern and Union Pacific lines that ran through the Flint Hills region just east of Wichita.  BN ran through Augusta, Beaumont and on east while UP ran through El Dorado on out to Yates Center.  A small section of the UP line from Wichita to El Dorado is still active, passing by my house before going through Greenwich, Benton and Towanda and terminating in a small yard in El Dorado.

 

There are other examples but hopefully this gives a couple of options.

 

Nick


Thanks Nick - I’ll have a look later.  Appreciated, Keith.

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Several references have been made to the Rock Island RR - hat tips to : @Allegheny1600, @APOLLO, @dave1905 and @Oldddudders.  I’ve had a quick browse on the internet and I have found a livery I quite like on the post-war E-units painted for the Rocket: red with vermillion / maroon and silver, small lettering.  The later liveries don’t grab my attention in the same way though.

 

Of course, the post-was story of the Rocket is another tale to tell - and in the right hands would make a great model (more a ‘tragedy’ than a ‘superhero movie’ if I may be so bold).

 

In terms of F-units, last year I was given a dummy CP unit for my HO diorama.  It looks like it may have been hand painted with added decals:

 

spacer.png

 

I think it’s an F7.  It needs glazing, and couplers (like the passenger cars it came with), but a workbench project could be to convert it for Santa Fe use (I’d want a powered unit to go with it as an A-A set).

 

It may be a question for the workbench part of this Forum when the time comes, but are decals still produced by anyone, or do people now print their own?

 

For now, I think the next stage is to look at some maps.

Edited by Keith Addenbrooke
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Hi Keith,

 I am fairly sure that Micro-Scale decals are still going, no doubt Mech Models could obtain them for you or simply hunt British eBay for them, you might be lucky. There are also European dealers of American outline stock, I've found they are usually top whack on price but (for now) cheaper shipping and no import duty to pay.

I'm not at my big pc right now or I could post links.

You might even have luck if you contact Ken Eaglesham, formerly of MG Sharp OR Model Junction might still have some stock, these are the kinds of things that hang around for a long time.

Cheers,

John

Edited by Allegheny1600
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With regard to Athearn Geeps?

At what stage/age did Athearn change to correct width hoods[car bodis] on their geeps?  I know the old style Athearn Geeps [I have one or two] had wider -than -scale hoods [the sort that would dim  street lights when pulling away].....and I realize the ever-so-costly newer Athearn geeps are to scale width....just wondered when that happened?

 

As an aside, I have to say, I much much prefer the 'feel' and character of the old Athearn geeps & SDs to more modern finely detailed 'scale' models, in appearance.

I have an affinity with UP for which I suppose I ought to grovel and beg forgiveness, but....I have an Athearn SD7 which I detailed up to match a photo in one of my UP loco roaster manuals....many years ago now......and have recently acquired a Proto-2000 UP SD7....thinking it would do as a  'running mate'..and, oh how the more modern, more 'scale, P2000 lacks the 'presence' of the old Athearn [1980's] model.

There is a difference when viewed end-on...but from the side, the Athearn has an air of solidity the P2000 newcomer lacks.

 

Somewhere I also have an old Athearn SW7/9 destroyer-of-Powergrid's-infrastructure...sorry, switcher......including one with Ernst gearing! Which made a nicely smooth, slow running, switcher even more  slow running.  Just don't turn the power up full.....especially if on a Smart meter?

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BTW, a simple [but not conclusive] way to tell an EMD F7 from an F9 is, the F9 will have an additional louvre on the bodyside, ahead of the forward porthole.

 

A nice wee upgrade for an F  unit is to make/buy/ & fit a winterisation hatch on the roof....Not sure if Rock had any F units with winterisation hatches, but, hey ho?

The other upgrade is to put dings and delves into the nose?

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Athearn changed to scale width hoods in the 80’s. I had a blue box GP50 in CNW with scale with hoods about 88 and a couple of SD40-2’s soon after. 
This gives the date as 1984 with the SD40-2 release followed by the GP38 & GP50

http://www.tcawestern.org/athearn.htm
 

Edited by PaulRhB
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Sorry, all this talk of F-Units... couldn't resist Gratuitous Photo, but to make it more interesting it's my Atlas O models - started out as F9s, but one is now an F7 & the other an FP7. :sungum:  Edit - photo taken before I weathered the F7.

000024893696.Jpeg.49364a59cd734177612f4f688a9db586.Jpeg

 

There's slightly more to the difference between F9 & F7 than the 5th louvre on the F9 body side - the forward porthole is in a different position, too (further back on the F9) ;)

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