Modelling the ATSF in 1970 in HO

[Keith Addenbrooke]

2 hours ago, alastairq said:

With regard to Athearn Geeps?

At what stage/age did Athearn change to correct width hoods[car bodis] on their geeps?  I know the old style Athearn Geeps [I have one or two] had wider -than -scale hoods [the sort that would dim  street lights when pulling away].....and I realize the ever-so-costly newer Athearn geeps are to scale width....just wondered when that happened?

 

As an aside, I have to say, I much much prefer the 'feel' and character of the old Athearn geeps & SDs to more modern finely detailed 'scale' models, in appearance.

I have an affinity with UP for which I suppose I ought to grovel and beg forgiveness, but....I have an Athearn SD7 which I detailed up to match a photo in one of my UP loco roaster manuals....many years ago now......and have recently acquired a Proto-2000 UP SD7....thinking it would do as a  'running mate'..and, oh how the more modern, more 'scale, P2000 lacks the 'presence' of the old Athearn [1980's] model.

There is a difference when viewed end-on...but from the side, the Athearn has an air of solidity the P2000 newcomer lacks.

 

Somewhere I also have an old Athearn SW7/9 destroyer-of-Powergrid's-infrastructure...sorry, switcher......including one with Ernst gearing! Which made a nicely smooth, slow running, switcher even more  slow running.  Just don't turn the power up full.....especially if on a Smart meter?

Thanks Alistair - raises two important points on compatibility:

 

1.  In my experience, a model looks more coherent if the different elements are of similar vintage: if locos are built to the latest standards, it helps if rolling stock is as well, in addition to buildings and scenery.  In my case here, it looks like I’ll be OK: the building kits I’m looking at the moment have been around for a good number of years, likewise the rolling stock.

 

2.  The same applies electrically.* I don’t know enough about the latest US models, but with UK products I’ve seen debate as to appropriate controllers for coreless motors (etc), or how well new controllers work with old motors.  Again, my controllers aren’t that new either, so I’m hoping I’ll be OK - though it’s one part of the hobby I know I don’t understand well enough.

 

If I take @Allegheny1600’s suggestion earlier in the thread of getting going then refining, I hope it will sustain interest, but some elements of an upgrade need to be more carefully planned.  It’s a bit like when you decorate one room in a house - and the first thing you notice is that the rest of the house ‘suddenly’ needs doing too.  Keith.

 

* I tend to use ‘electrically’ for references to DC, ‘electronically’ for DCC - it’s not that simple of course, but gives me clarity.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Keith Addenbrooke]

45 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Sorry, all this talk of F-Units... couldn't resist Gratuitous Photo, but to make it more interesting it's my Atlas O models - started out as F9s, but one is now an F7 & the other an FP7.   Edit - photo taken before I weathered the F7.

 

There's slightly more to the difference between F9 & F7 than the 5th louvre on the F9 body side - the forward porthole is in a different position, too (further back on the F9)

Not gratuitous at all - thanks for the clarification.  Looking up the numbers, my guess is the F7 is in front and the FP7, being longer as well, is at the back?

Edited November 11, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Barclay]

Can I suggest a perusal of RRPictureArchives.Net  Sorry that's not a proper link.

 

This site contains zillions of locomotive photo's that you can search by Railroad and then by locomotive class. Really useful for finding examples to model from.

 

I'm planning a micro Santa Fe layout set on the San Francisco waterfront around 1975 so I will follow your progress with interest.

 

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just now, Barclay said:

Can I suggest a perusal of RRPictureArchives.Net  Sorry that's not a proper link.

 

This site contains zillions of locomotive photo's that you can search by Railroad and then by locomotive class. Really useful for finding examples to model from.

 

I'm planning a micro Santa Fe layout set on the San Francisco waterfront around 1975 so I will follow your progress with interest.

 

 

 

 

San Francisco does not feature on any of the ATSF maps that I have seen. It ran to a shared terminal on a pier at Oakland for connecting ferries to San Francisco.

Oakland looks very interesting with quite a length of street running although the modern station at Jack London Square is rather dull.

[Barclay]

6 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

San Francisco does not feature on any of the ATSF maps that I have seen. It ran to a shared terminal on a pier at Oakland for connecting ferries to San Francisco.

Oakland looks very interesting with quite a length of street running although the modern station at Jack London Square is rather dull.

China Basin is my inspiration, or at least a good enough excuse...

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Barclay

[Keith Addenbrooke]

23 minutes ago, Barclay said:

Can I suggest a perusal of RRPictureArchives.Net  Sorry that's not a proper link.

 

This site contains zillions of locomotive photo's that you can search by Railroad and then by locomotive class. Really useful for finding examples to model from.

 

I'm planning a micro Santa Fe layout set on the San Francisco waterfront around 1975 so I will follow your progress with interest.

 

 

 

Thanks - I can’t promise anything too soon: I started the thread for some informal research, but it has rather taken off, which is hugely encouraging of course.   Be good to see how yours turns out: looks like a very interesting prototype.
 

Some years ago (1980s I think), Model Railroader built a small working diorama 6’ x 30” based on the Port of Los Angeles that was reprinted in 6 HO Railroads You Can Build - I bought the book for other projects in it, but was impressed with how well they could represent a major port in such a small space.

 

More recently, Bernard Kempinski wrote another Kalmbach book on Waterfront Terminals and Operations which might have useful stuff in it (I’ve not got a copy - but I’ve got one of his other books, which is very good).

[alastairq]

I recall seeing an article about a typical eastern seaboard 'Union' station...seemed quite appealing. Basically consisted of 3{?} loops, and I think, IIRC, single track in & out? Middle of a town...It was the first time I noticed that some US trackage differed from recognised UK practise in that the turnouts didn't seem to have check rails?

I will conduct a search at some point...but if someone  here knows more, please interrupt?

[dave1905]

Mission creep.

 

You started with red and silver F units with stainless cars and are now at a waterfront theme.  Two completely different worlds that don't intersect.

 

If you want switching and war bonnets, I suggest Kansas City.  That would be a place that would have just about any industry and any passenger service you could want.  You can even have model railroad sized hills and river valleys.  Plus interchange with most of the midwestern roads (MP, CNW, UP, CRIP, CGW, MILW, MKT, NW, etc).

 

[dave1905]

4 minutes ago, alastairq said:

I recall seeing an article about a typical eastern seaboard 'Union' station...seemed quite appealing. Basically consisted of 3{?} loops, and I think, IIRC, single track in & out? Middle of a town...It was the first time I noticed that some US trackage differed from recognised UK practise in that the turnouts didn't seem to have check rails?

I will conduct a search at some point...but if someone  here knows more, please interrupt?

 

I assume "check rails" are what we in the states call "split point derails" and no we don't generally use them on station tracks.  They are used before drawbridges, some major junctions and at industrial leads or junctions where the railroad wants to keep loose cars from reaching the main.

[dave1905]

Kalmbach published the "Diesel Spotter's Guide" which would be perfect for your era.

[alastairq]

8 minutes ago, dave1905 said:

 

I assume "check rails" are what we in the states call "split point derails" and no we don't generally use them on station tracks.  They are used before drawbridges, some major junctions and at industrial leads or junctions where the railroad wants to keep loose cars from reaching the main.

 I did not mean those sort of check rails..

I meant the check rails that lie opposite turnout crossings,  [or, frog, in US parlance] to help prevent wheelsets taking the wrong route.

[alastairq]

Something similar to this

 

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, alastairq said:

 When were the older Geeps re-tooled then?

[My Geeps were purchased new from UK dealers [MG Sharp. Victors] in the 1980's and early 1990's...]

I don’t know date but through the 90’s they introduced one or two a year. I had GP38-2’s, GP40’s and various SD’s. Others did the GP7 & 9 so I don’t think Athearn revisited those until ready to roll saw the handrails retooled as plastic for the older shells and new models were pretty much all Genesis in the 2000’s. Lifelike Proto2000 / 1000 did the definitive early GP’s for a while but they were very delicate. 

[dave1905]

Guardrails in US parlance.  In slow speed applications in yards they often use the "self guarded" frogs like the one you pictured.  Higher speed frogs, above 10-15 mph, will have guardrails.  For lower speed yard and industrial applications, self guarded frogs are cheaper and require less maintenance.

[Johann Marsbar]

They even have points with moveable frogs over there as well now....

 

 

... which I came across for the first time as shown above, in Boone, Iowa.

 

.

[Nick_Burman]

16 hours ago, dave1905 said:

What killed the LV is collapse of the anthracite coal market (oil and electric heating and power generation).  By the 1960's 90% of its revenue was carried on 10% of its route miles.  Most of the other smaller coal routes were circling the drain by then too (LNE, LHR, CNJ, NYOW).

 

Small anecdote: the present owner of Morning Sun Books (producer of those wonderful all-colour photo books of US railways) was for a while LV's 3rd largest shareholder... he recounted the story years ago on Trains magazine on how on a whim he purchased tens of thousands of shares for peanuts. When Penn Central went finally bust LV went with it (PC controlled something like 90% of LV's stock, a holdover from PRR control of LV) ; PC's (and LV's) rail assets were conveyed into Conrail while PC went into Chapter 11 reorganization as a real estate holdings company. He shrugged and held on to the scrip he had accumulated, thinking that maybe one day he could sell it to collectors. Many years later he received a letter from PC telling that the reorganization procedure had finished and that company would continue operation. Fine - then some time later another letter from PC arrived, telling that the company was de-listing itself from the stock exchange and because of this it was compulsorily purchasing all remaining outstanding shares. And inside the same envelope was a fat check, worth several hundred times the original investment! That money supplied the seed to get Morning Sun started...

 

 

Cheers NB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

19 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Thanks for checking this - the GP9 is the one I need.  The U33C would be a bit too big and a bit too new for the sort of ideas I’m looking at (although it is just about pre-1970).

ISTR that the Santa Fe had few if any GP9s — mostly GP7s — but then I think the old Athearn "GP9” was actually a GP7…

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

ISTR that the Santa Fe had few if any GP9s — mostly GP7s — but then I think the old Athearn "GP9” was actually a GP7…

The Santa Fe had 52 GP9s, delivered in the black and silver stripes between 3/53 and 4/57. 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Re: Small Eastern Seaboard Station:

 

4 hours ago, alastairq said:

I recall seeing an article about a typical eastern seaboard 'Union' station...seemed quite appealing. Basically consisted of 3{?} loops, and I think, IIRC, single track in & out? Middle of a town...It was the first time I noticed that some US trackage differed from recognised UK practise in that the turnouts didn't seem to have check rails?

I will conduct a search at some point...but if someone  here knows more, please interrupt?

 

I wonder if the place you're looking for might be here?  Quotes from the Track Plans for North American Layouts thread in this Forum (page 26):

 

On 22/10/2019 at 17:18, mdvle said:

For those who prefer passenger trains, a compact inner city style station from Troy, NY.

 

Troy Union Station shared by the NYC, D&H, and B&M (with trains from the Rutland using running rights) was demolished in the late 50s and at some point later most of the surrounding buildings along the rail line seem to have been demolished.

 

The station and platforms (Fulton Street to Broadway) were a mere 461' by Google Maps (HO: 5'3.5" / O: 9.6' / S: 7.2' / N: 2.9') and a doubling of those numbers gets you not only the station throats on each end but likely also a bit of regular track and the 2 over-the-track signal boxes.  With the station being so small (only fit 5 passenger cars at most without blocking roads) you could likely even shrink it by 1 car length with nobody noticing.  There's even a short tunnel at one end that could be moved closer.

 

A search will pick up some photos showing how compact and surrounded the station was.

 

Library of Congress have some from maps apparently from the early 1900s that either predate the station in question or have shown it incorrectly:

 

https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3804tm.g3804tm_g06307188501/?sp=41&r=0.182,0.759,0.941,0.577,0

 

https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3804tm.g3804tm_g06307188501/?sp=42&r=-0.66,-0.08,2.32,1.601,0

 

And someone got access to the 1955 version and posted them to Tumblr:

 

https://k-gnome.tumblr.com/post/60791239116/sanborn-maps-of-troy-ny-in-1955-merged-together

 

Finally, someone actually filmed the station and some nearby trackage in the final years prior to closing and demolition:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw8AnDnDmwI

 

 

 

On 22/10/2019 at 21:07, Satan's Goldfish said:

Fascinating little site, scope for operations of different lines is huge, the video of operations was good too. Like you say, even a HO model based on the site would only take a few feet in length (good for a double track roundy?) But looks good fun for scenery and showing off different stock.

 

Just a thought, Keith.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

4 hours ago, dave1905 said:

Kalmbach published the "Diesel Spotter's Guide" which would be perfect for your era.

 

Thanks - I've seen a second edition version published 1974: as you say, spot on for the era I'm looking at.

 

For now I've ordered "The Model Railroader's Guide to Diesel Locomotives" - it won't be as in-depth, but I like the style of the MR Guides, and as a 2009 book will help me get up to date with more modern units for general interest: some gentle winter evening reading.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

3 hours ago, Nick_Burman said:

 

Small anecdote: the present owner of Morning Sun Books (producer of those wonderful all-colour photo books of US railways) was for a while LV's 3rd largest shareholder... he recounted the story years ago on Trains magazine on how on a whim he purchased tens of thousands of shares for peanuts. When Penn Central went finally bust LV went with it (PC controlled something like 90% of LV's stock, a holdover from PRR control of LV) ; PC's (and LV's) rail assets were conveyed into Conrail while PC went into Chapter 11 reorganization as a real estate holdings company. He shrugged and held on to the scrip he had accumulated, thinking that maybe one day he could sell it to collectors. Many years later he received a letter from PC telling that the reorganization procedure had finished and that company would continue operation. Fine - then some time later another letter from PC arrived, telling that the company was de-listing itself from the stock exchange and because of this it was compulsorily purchasing all remaining outstanding shares. And inside the same envelope was a fat check, worth several hundred times the original investment! That money supplied the seed to get Morning Sun started...

 

 

Cheers NB

 

 

Great story - I've been loaned a couple of Morning Sun books, which is the first time I've come across them, but they do seem to have a big catalogue.  Great use of the windfall he got.

[Nick]

As far as I know, Athearn GP7/9 never did go to scale width hood until the Genesis models. 

 

For railroads in Kansas City, the West Bottoms area is really interesting, so is the Fairfax Industrial Area/Quindaro Yard.  Most of this is UP but all railroads ran in the area.

 

If thinking about more of a switching layout rather than a roundy layout, have you considered modelling a terminal association railroad?  In Wichita, the terminal association is supported by all the railroads in town and has a dedicated crew (train and rail maintenance).  However, the motive power is supplied by the owning railroads depending on how much of the traffic they generated for the terminal in the previous year.  If the ratio is 50% UP, 30% BN and 20% ATSF, the following year UP would provide motive power for 6 months of the year, BN power for 4 months and SF for 2 months.  A lot of times the power donated to the terminal is older power which makes for interesting viewing.  Much larger terminal railroads may justify their own dedicated locomotives.  BTW, back in the day, when Wichita had a railroad depot downtown, it was run by the terminal association, meaning that any passenger cars being moved were moved by terminal crews.

 

Regards,

 

Nick

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Looks like homework time on the locomotive:

 

On 11/11/2020 at 17:02, D9020 Nimbus said:

ISTR that the Santa Fe had few if any GP9s — mostly GP7s — but then I think the old Athearn "GP9” was actually a GP7…

 

On 11/11/2020 at 18:08, Oldddudders said:

The Santa Fe had 52 GP9s, delivered in the black and silver stripes between 3/53 and 4/57. 

 

The loco I've got coming my way is this - and I am happy with it: fits perfectly.

 

 

@Oldddudders has confirmed my suspicion that ATSF #8517 was actually a U33C.   

 

Using the Reference Sites suggested earlier in this thread: I can confirm Athearn sold it as a GP9,  and had previously released it years before as ATSF #2685, although in reality ATSF #2685 was a GP7. 

 

I can't find any photos of #2685, but a photo of #2686 is on RRPictureArchives.net and, other than yellow handrails, looks like a match to me.

 

So I'll call it a GP7.  Final check - looking more closely at photos of the MR "Washita and Santa Fe" Project Layout mentioned in my opening post, and there is the Athearn #2685.  So I am getting the unit I wanted.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Reinstating photos

[Northroader]

One of the sites I like is the “fallen flags” one, but it’s been taken over and is riddled with adverts now, which strains my patience. If you’re persistent, on the archive photos section, you can find around 3000 pics of the old ATSF, as well as every other road back then.

https://www.american-rails.com/fallen-flags.html

On from there, another good link is “modelling the SP” full of information, not only of that, but good explanations of operating practices and ideas such as what a typical American freight roster should be.

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com

Lastly, the soundest suggestion has come from Allegheny1600, using the layout type as done by Peter North, a simple oval type run with limited sidings, where you could have your warbonnet with a couple of passenger cars, and a geep with a few freight cars. Tailoring this setting with appropriate scenery could fit damn near any American line. Give me a bit of time and I’ll do an edit with photos and notes I took at an exhibition 25 years ago.

”Keep it simple” is the best possible advice anyone could have.

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Northroader

[dave1905]

There are numerous places that the ATSF was involved with joint facilities or terminal lines.  The Houston Belt and Terminal in Houston, Kansas City Terminal in KC, St Joseph Terminal in St Joseph, MO.  The ATSF had big junction terminals around Houston, Galveston, Ft Worth, Dallas, Oklahoma City, Wichita, Kansas City, St Joseph, Topeka, Chicago, Denver, El Paso, LA and Oakland.  Those would have multiple railroads interchanging so there would be more chances to run other road's engines.

 

Really the decision is what other roads do you want to possibly want to use and do you care whether or not its prototypical.  Obviously, if you don't care it doesn't matter.  If you do then choose an area of the country that has those other roads.  For example if you want to include the Rock, Chicago (Joliet, IL), Kansas City, Wichita down to Texas would be a likely area.  If you want the UP (1970) then that means Kansas City, Wichita, Denver or California.