A question from Accurascale - At what stage of development should a manufacturer announce a new model?

[slg]

16 minutes ago, Accurascale Fran said:

and this is the long wait

 

I'm only using this small part as this question got me thinking about how long some items take to get to us, the customer. 

When you think about your post on the 12/11/2017 - 

 

- and you look at how many products you've released and announced, I stand by what I said in my earlier post

 

As a comparison in February 2013 Bachmann announced 37-560 45 Ton Class B TTA Conical End Wagon

nearly 8 years later it is still in the drawing office.

 

Doesn't time fly.

[Accurascale Fran]

4 minutes ago, slg said:

 

I'm only using this small part as this question got me thinking about how long some items take to get to us, the customer. 

When you think about your post on the 12/11/2017 - 

 

- and you look at how many products you've released and announced, I stand by what I said in my earlier post

 

As a comparison in February 2013 Bachmann announced 37-560 45 Ton Class B TTA Conical End Wagon

nearly 8 years later it is still in the drawing office.

 

Doesn't time fly.

 

Time flies indeed! I think we are on the right track (to pardon the pun) in our approach, but as we have seen in this thread so far there are lots of different thoughts and approaches to announcing a new model. As @AY Mod rightly says in the video there is no right or wrong way, and everyone will have a differing opinion. But that was our approach to begin with, and so far on those projects it has served us well, whereas the announcing from beginning (Class 92, Mark 5) have shown that later in the process might indeed be the right way to go!

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

[Mike at C&M]

Fran,

    From a retailer's point view, I prefer a bit of notice so that it builds up a demand from potential customers, and we get an idea of what quantities we need to order.

 

The Bachmann approach of announce on Tuesday, and be sold out by Friday is of no use to us. We need a chance for Tom, Dick and Harry to say I would like one of these, two of those and half a dozen of the other to allow us to get our orders right. The Bachmann approach sees Tom come in for his Saturday visit to order a couple of 'Thingy' diesels, but Bachmann and you are already sold out within hours of announcement and the order book being opened. Tom has to do without his much desired 'Thingy's

 

The approach you use now is ideal. A prime example is the Class 37. Many of our customers have asked us to order models, and the numbers are different to what we would have anticipated. With yourselves inviting Class 37 trade orders prior to finalising your production run, we know we will be able to satisfy all our customer requests.

 

Keep it as it is, and that includes your excellent chain of information, keeping us all informed of how things are progressing.

 

Mike at C&M

[JSpencer]

I think a loco should be announced once CADs are complete. Probably to arrive within a 18-24 month period (yeah there will be exceptions especially if you are innovation new features which you guys tend to do).

 

Coaches are quite big and I'd say the same as locos.

The above are high ticket items and doubtless shops (and many customers alike), like to plan their budgets before hand.

 

For wagons, unless they were small in number, these will probably survive duplication. I have Warwells and Turbots from both makes for example. I think people will get bored waiting 18 months for these and do feel that what you have done to date was pretty good for timescales.

 

I agree with comments above about Bachmann's last minute approach as going from one extreme (waiting for years) to the other. And can fully understand a retailer going "how the hell am I supposed to know how many I want right away?". Cert. some items will be obvious sellers to a retailer, but many will not. If Bachmann did that for an entirely new 4 car EMU, there would be no way most people could save up for one. 

Edited November 9, 2020 by JSpencer

[BR Blue]

Lots of different views but I think the one thing most if not all would agree on is no vapourware or land grabbing. 

 

I think it is a bit of a how long is a piece of string question. It  depends on the model. If it is niche model like your KUA, that will probably not be repeated, or if it is not for a long time, then letting people know well in advance so that the orders can build is probably a good idea. Additionally a niche model is less likely to face competition so you can allow times for orders to build.

 

No doubt when you announce your TT gauge Fell, you will need to allow some time for the 7 people on the planet who will order one, to find out about it. Other models like the class 37, that is likely to be in the range indefinitely, can have less of a lead time. 

 

However, it also depends if you are duplicating an existing model. This could lead to a reaction and dumping of lots of product from a competitor. Therefore a manufacture may wish to keep it under their hat until the very last minute. This is obviously why we have not heard about your class 66 yet.

 

It is not east estimating demand and there will always be surprises in demand both good and bad, it is definitely a black art.

 

PS. I know Accurascale are not doing a TT gauge Fell, KR Models are

 

[shunny]

I think it might be a mixture of the 2 if the model is specialised you might want more notice to avoid duplication for example Cavalex are doing  the Bardon JGA  if you had both anounced this model and been at tooling stage it could have been risky for both, the duplication of the HAA is different there were thousand all over the UK for many years and demand should hopefully be good enough for both to succeed. 

 

[NIRCLASS80]

I think your current announcement tactics/program is pretty much as good as any model company.
 

Just don’t get into the two year plus drag like some companies. Then rumours of vapourware start to tarnish  a company’s image very quickly and customers confidence in the brand drops. 

[scottystitch]

I don't model 4mm (in any great depth) nor 7mm, but from a general point of view, I'd say I'd prefer to have at least something to look at, at the time of announcement.  At the very least a CAD, but preferably a 3d print as well or an EP.

 

Best

 

Scott.

[adb968008]

February, for anything controversial.*

At early EP stage is best, it shows commitment and not too long a timescale.**

 

*That way Hornbys catalog is out of the way.

** The class 55 wait has been a long journey, the Mk5 is a growing journey.

 

I don't mind paying up front for a model, but I dont want put a limit on how much credit i’d give.. Ive a lot of stuff I want, but i’m a bit reluctant to commit to the newer stuff too much, with the older outstanding, which goes back to my point of what time... EP good,CAD ..too early, boxes in the warehouse...i’d love it, but not sure your accountant would.

 

Theres always going to be risk, at any stage..  especially when duplicating older toolings or picking obvious low hanging fruit.. HAA is obvious, HEA is too as is a 6 wheel milk tank and an Electrostar.  Picking less obvious will give you lesser risk, in my mind thats 1st Gen Multiple Units (Electric & Diesel), as is Todays Multiple units... Pick a 20,31,50.. its obvious what will happen.

fyi, this time of year, is a really good time to look at ebay... when you suddenly see a stream of rare kits or models suddenly bubble to the surface, often its a sign of insider knowledge cashing out just as the printers goto press... 6 W1s appeared last November/December, couldnt believe it at the time... Warleys a den of spies.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by adb968008

[virginhst539]

Personally I think the shorter time for announcement to release is fantastic. Especially when a payment plan is offered along side to make getting the models you want that little bit less stressful and a lot easier to manage. The transparency and frequent updates on the projects as well is brilliant. Think many will agree the way you do announcements, updates and the finished product have been a very welcome addition to the hobby 

[Roy Langridge]

I have to say that I echo the thought of those who think you have it just right as you do it now. It seems to be working for you, don't change it.

 

Announcing early will not get rid of all duplication and may even result in it where it would not otherwise have happened.

Roy

Edited November 9, 2020 by Roy Langridge
Can't type!

[Axlebox]

5 hours ago, Porcy Mane said:

"...and pressurised using  your Eco friendly bicycle pump..."

 

 

Presta or Schrader? These things are important.

[scottrains29]

I like the shorter announcement time. It creates excitement that will help sales.

I'm also for the odd duplication. It helps drive innovation, gives customers more choice, and helps to keep the cost of the models competitive.

[96701]

I've gone through a mix of purchase options, including losing money with DJM, funding KR Models on some of their adventures, ordering a Deltic direct from Accurascale, but also ordering their 37 from Derails. I have only paid deposits so far for Accurascale's products, but have paid no deposits on Heljans forthcoming diesel products with Hattons and Rails at n cost to me.

[Accurascale Fran]

I think an important aspect is that we do offer payment plans and a lot of ways to pay (no money up front, deposit up front, pay all up front, pay weekly or monthly at no extra cost) and with payment plans etc on pre-order items we need to allow space for the customer to pay between announcement and delivery. Having a bit of time between announcement and delivery allows it to be manageable in payment terms. We go into that a bit more in this part of the video. 

 

 

[newbryford]

Please, please, please.

No more ghost images of Andy.

It looks like some cheap special effects from a BBC 80s sci-fi series.

Including a railway version of Davros sitting in a bogie

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by newbryford

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, slg said:

 

As a comparison in February 2013 Bachmann announced 37-560 45 Ton Class B TTA Conical End Wagon

nearly 8 years later it is still in the drawing office.

 

High time somebody called out the breakdown gang to remove it and then maybe the draughtsmen will go back to work!

[adb968008]

17 minutes ago, Accurascale Fran said:

I think an important aspect is that we do offer payment plans and a lot of ways to pay (no money up front, deposit up front, pay all up front, pay weekly or monthly at no extra cost) and with payment plans etc on pre-order items we need to allow space for the customer to pay between announcement and delivery.

I can think of two ways youve not yet thought of...

 

Bingo.

Lottery.

 

[Markwj]

I think a year as Hornby do (although sometimes there are slippages with timings) works pretty well but I also think that the fact you ask for deposits when buying direct means customers are committed to buying from you regardless of what the competition may do. I have for example 2 class 92 ordered and even if say Bachmann announced one last week and it was delivered tomorrow I would buy one probably but wouldn’t be cancelling my pre orders which I have already put money into.

It helps that you are producing quality products too!

[Michael Hodgson]

10 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I can think of two ways youve not yet thought of...

 

Bingo.

Lottery.

 

 

I think the lottery is whether certain other manufacturers ever get round to delivering products they've announced.

Credit where it's due - no gripes against Accurascale on that front. 

 

I'm always wary about payment in advance especially to sole traders/smaller companies, but crowd funding does have its place.

[dogbox321]

Its certainly a question with many answers......Isn't that one for Graham?  Is Accurascale going to fund a PHD for me to answer that question?  

 

However - firstly there are two important caveats -

Firstly - I am in no way discussing the recent "HAA" as both manufacturers have proven themselves to be very capable in producing superb models, and are pushing the boundaries in model railway manufacturing.

Secondly - Model railways are a business- "fact".  Yes, sometimes those involved have a "healthy interest" but ultimately its a "business" that runs under commercial principles, especially when dealing with the Chinese manufacturers, bringing in cash to invest in other projects etc.    However, I do not believe that the Accurascale Team wish to do any damage to the hobby - in any form whatsoever.  However they are very proactive in developing the hobby, and this does give them from a business perspective - a very competitive position.

 

If you did a very brief analysis - then as a manufacturer - Accurascale products so far have been pretty spot on with your attention to detail and accuracy.  Likewise they are competitive within the market place.  It is an exceptionally strong position that can be maintained as long as fixed costs are carefully managed, fair pricing and the products quality remains very high.  More established manufacturers also have what I will call "legacy" issues - i.e. old tooling which they continue to attempt to charge relatively high prices for.  For example some very simple 2 axle wagons costing circa £30, whilst a MDO/V with all its refinements is still coming in at £25, and less with the previous runs of PCA's and PFA's.  There is also the case that certain manufacturers tend to try to "retaliate".

 

In view of this I think a three stage strategy is appropriate:

1 - "If" no one has declared an interest then it is highly appropriate to release a model at a time when you feel it appropriate.  Its your "baby"!  Ultimately - a time frame light years ahead is too long, whilst too short does not permit people to budget for their most desired purchases.  I'd also consider timing to coincide with "complimentary" purchases.

2 - If someone else announces a product then declare your intentions, but I do not believe based on your following then there is any reason to change course.  You can produce models as good, if not better than most of your established competitors.  As long as Accurascale continues to produce exceptionally high quality and value for model products, then your brand will make the sales, just like a competing product will stand up to the same scrutiny.  If both are great - then as soon as one sells out the other will follow very shortly!  The only exception is the start out "train set market" where you can pretty much "bet" whose product will be purchased.   It's not playing dirty - its just that sometimes 2 entities believe there is a commercial business case for the product in question.  (Note to modellers - don't lobby multiple companies for the same product - otherwise we get into the busses analogy - More than one comes along at the same time!)

3 - If going up against certain competitors - keep it quiet and announce "late" enough that they cannot retool hence then the only retaliation is a price reduction!  (But why have cotton when you can wait and have silk?) I'd also be considering getting it to market or announced prior to any popular re-liveries appearing.    Besides they like surprises..........  

 

Apologies to anyone to anyone who thinks the above, is too clinical - but as per my second caveat - model railways are a wonderful hobby, but its a business - you try to get a manufacturer in China to do things altruistically!  

 

Looking forward to the exciting times ahead and innovations from what I would term - the "3rd Generation" of model manufacturers (A non exhaustive list including the likes of Accurascale, RevolutioN, Cavalex and Rapido).  

 

Hoping everyone remains safe,

 

Best Wishes,

 

Christopher.

 

 

[Damo666]

Interesting question Fran.

 

I've read on this forum (and that TV programme a few years ago hosted by James May) where two different retail outlets announced a loco and then had the big boys rush out their spoiler first. One was from similar tooling in one case IIRC and with the other loco, they suddenly produced lots of duplicate liveries applied to their 'adequate' model.

 

Too early and you might find another manufacturer trying to grab a bit of the market after you guys spotting an opening.

 

Then again, too late and you might miss out on some of the incredible expert knowledge which is available on various forums. We can all concentrate on something and get focused on a particular aspect and miss another issue. It never fails me that I can produce a drawing from scratch over a period of days / weeks and be totally happy that it's all 100% correct. Then I'll send it to the plotter and I can immediately see an error as it's coming off the print roll. It's there, and blindingly obvious but for the life of me I couldn't tune into it on the screen. No matter how long you look at a CAD screen and twist that model inside out, you'll only spot the error when you've got something tangible. It's at that point that, maybe, other parties who may not be blinded by the process, can offer comments.

 

I've no idea of manufacturing processes so I'm not going to proffer any definitive advice, but I think you have it right on the MDO model: You've done a lot of work and are now committed, so you are ahead of any potential spoilers by others, but yet can avail of encyclopaedic knowledge from a few experts too.

 

Speaking of which.......

 

6 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

Maybe that's just us, and we do enjoy the participation (one member very cleverly spotted that the body of our MDO sample is on the wrong way round on Saturday, easy fix of course but as we rushed the samples over direct to Andy before seeing them ourselves to support the virtual show something was bound to be off!) 

 

I'm sure you'd have spotted this yourselves before production, but where do I pick up my prize? I'll happily accept that CIE livery Class 37.

 

[adb968008]

One food for thought..

 

when announcing the models, why not poll for popularity of some selective liveries/numbers to be produced ?

you have plenty of time still before production commences to finalise. SLW have done something similar with their 24’s which I thought was quite good, and (predictably) got us the RTC 24 a bit faster.

imagine the froth of a Poll on 1980’s 37/4s to be done ?

 

That then leads to solving my dilemma..ordering direct vs ordering via a shop.

 

For pre-orders on a new release via your site, perhaps different numbers (not liveries or variants, keep it simple just alternative numbers) could be done differently to those of the trade. Keep the liveries (Blue 37 is a Blue 37, but 37001 is yours, 37002 is everyone elses)... you get the idea what I mean.., even if it was slow, you can always put it to trade later.

 

E.g.  if you did two WHL white stripe 37’s many would buy both, one direct one from trade. At manufacturing its just printing a different name /number... i’m highly likely to end up doing it myself with 2 identical ones anyway (its just me being even more lazy)

 

it keeps incentive to have the pre-orders at your site as something special whilst motivating to & not competing with the trade, some of us would go fishing to buy the duplicates too.
 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by adb968008

[atom3624]

Stating the obvious, this year has been an exception!!

 

Models announced a year ago, due into production during this year had been delayed a minimum of perhaps 6 months through COVID.

 

Others already posting are far more experienced than I, but as a fellow 'fan' of model railways, it's nice to prepare and budget, so timeframe would be 6-9 months prior to sale, typically for me.

 

Al.

Edited November 9, 2020 by atom3624

[25901]

To be honest I think you've answered your own question already.

You have released some stunning wagons and they have sold well for you, even selling out therefore what you are doing works for you, and more importantly puts a roof over your heads.

The one thing I will point out is don't over stretch yourselves with too many projects, some may hate me for saying this but it is always better to make us want more than flooding yourselves with too much work all at the same time.

I also love how open you are with everything and everyone unlike some companies who say they are doing an item and five years down the line no other comments.

 

PS HEA HEA HEA lol