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RAIB Press Release - driver unaware of emergency speed restriction


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42 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Sounds like your company's management need a good kick up the backside - and with two RAIB reports now highlighting the need for real time info to be provided as regards speed restrictions I would have thought your safety reps could make a good case for a more sensible policy to be adopted.


yes I fully agree about management, but something you may not know Gsmr has that ability already to give real time reporting, but it was disabled when it first came in as it was being abused by signallers if memory serves to put out football results in Scotland.

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1 hour ago, caradoc said:

 

The railway industry also has a confidential reporting system, CIRAS, now expanded to include other transport operators:

https://www.ciras.org.uk

 

And I don't believe it is necessarily the railway's choice to turn accidents into crime scenes; The recent tragedy at Stonehaven being a prime example. 

 

 

 

 

Ciras what a joke!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Andymsa said:


sorry I have to disagree having actually tried it, any decent train driver can do this keeping a train to time by allowing for route knowledge ect,  If you start to rely on this kind of technology you will undermine the core skill in driving a train. Let me give an actual example, one of our drivers got a please explain why he was 15 minutes late. The reply was DAS told him to do speed X and the system did not take into account of what was actually happening at that time, management reply was common sense should prevail in other words ignore it when needed. DAS is just a tool to save money as you point out and not to run a train to time and get passengers to there destinations on time.

 

I didn't say it was necessarily a good thing for drivers or should be followed slavishly (hence the word supposedly)  - but I understand the financial been counters who run things these days are very impressed with it. Like it or not between financial whizz-kids, Whitehall mandarins and H&S zealots (all of which really do not 'get' the intricacies of the industry) the old sensible railway is rapidly disappearing.

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3 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

And I don't believe it is necessarily the railway's choice to turn accidents into crime scenes; The recent tragedy at Stonehaven being a prime example.

 

 

 

Correct - but that decision is entirely in the hands of the Police service. Some are better, some are worse, but definitely Police Scotland took an awful long time to finish their work (including a fingertip search for incriminating evidence). While I have no idea if its a factor its worth noting that Scottish Politicians were mighty pissed off when they couldn't find a way to overcome the serious opposition to the BTP in Scotland being merged with the civil police to create a truly 'national' Police force. One can't help wondering if there are some within Police Scotland who are getting a bit too big for their boots as it were.

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53 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

the old sensible railway is rapidly disappearing

I'm bloody glad I got out when I did! I wouldn't want to be on the footplate now with all the crap you chaps and chapesses have to put up with.

 

Andi (happy that trains are just a hobby now)

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1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I didn't say it was necessarily a good thing for drivers or should be followed slavishly (hence the word supposedly)  - but I understand the financial been counters who run things these days are very impressed with it. Like it or not between financial whizz-kids, Whitehall mandarins and H&S zealots (all of which really do not 'get' the intricacies of the industry) the old sensible railway is rapidly disappearing.


couldn’t agree more that the traditional practices and railway men ( persons) are disappearing to the detriment of a proud British industry.

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37 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

I'm bloody glad I got out when I did! I wouldn't want to be on the footplate now with all the crap you chaps and chapesses have to put up with.

 

 

Couldn't agree with you more - DAS sounds like something else that makes me feel even happier with my decision to take redundancy/early retirement!

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1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

While I have no idea if its a factor its worth noting that Scottish Politicians were mighty pissed off when they couldn't find a way to overcome the serious opposition to the BTP in Scotland being merged with the civil police to create a truly 'national' Police force. 

 

I heard that pensions was a big problem in that the liabilities for the new employing authority were in the £ billions, yet the amount the BTP section of the Railway Pension Fund could be forced to hand over to cover the liability was £0.

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16 hours ago, NorthEndCab said:


You might very well think that, but out policy is a bit more draconian. Having your mobile phone switched on while walking up to the station to get your set or walking back from the station to the depot (even if you’re not looking at it) is a disciplinary offence.

 

Once you book on it must be switched off unless on a PNB. 
 

Like a lot of theoretical disciplinary offences on the railway it’s one they seem to keep up their sleeve to hang you with if they’re looking for the opportunity. 

I retired in 2007, but for most of the last 10 years of my railway career is was a roster clerk working in the Trainsmasters (TCS) office. I do not know what the actual rules were regarding phones, but it was interesting listening to the Trainsmasters conversations.

Many times the TCS sent a driver out for a job which involved travelling as a passenger to pick up a back working with the instruction 'keep your phone on, I will let you know how your train is running'. Then the TCS finds out the booked working is cancelled or hours late and tries to contact the driver to avoid a wasted journey only to find the drivers phone switched off! Sometimes I suspected the driver deliberately left it off to avoid being contacted and called back for another job. Sometimes that would backfire as the message to the driver would be 'your job is cancelled, you can get off home as soon as you like'!

 

cheers

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4 minutes ago, NorthEndCab said:

 

 

I refuse to believe a driver would actively try and avoid work.... ;-)

Ha!

I don't like to generalise.

I worked with a lot of very good railwaymen (and women) of all grades during my railway career, including drivers

many were very helpful during my rostering period.

 

cheers

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13 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

I worked with a lot of very good railwaymen (and women) of all grades during my railway career, including drivers

many were very helpful during my rostering period.

Which says to me that you probably tried to be helpful to them, and guess what, you got a response from the vast majority. 

 

Unsocial hours and some harsh working conditions, particularly when things go adrift, can sometimes make the railway a horrible place to work, especially for traincrew. But most of the time the railway is a rewarding place to earn a legit living. 

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16 hours ago, Andymsa said:

Ciras what a joke!

No it can work, when all other avenues led nowhere it put a rocket up where it was needed to the benefit of colleagues of mine. It got it to the attention of someone in higher management they couldn’t contact direct, without causing trouble for them, that understood why and figured out who had probably reported it and asked the relevant team what they thought too ‘as a check’. 
I don’t think he knew for certain but he had a damn good idea and said thanks. 
As usual it didn’t completely solve a problem due to cost but it put adequate protection in place. 

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1 hour ago, NorthEndCab said:

 

 

I refuse to believe a driver would actively try and avoid work.... ;-)

I retired recently after 23 years as a Crew Controller at Eurotunnel. I did know of some drivers who didn't reply to their radios, or who turned them off when on their breaks; generally, I'd let them know the next day that they'd missed an early bath. Curiously, they were always contactable after that... I had some colleagues who would try the 'I'm in charge' approach, and would even ask that tapes of calls be pulled- very counterproductive, they soon found.

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You'd always get someone who thought they could get away with anything....

When I was on the Relief staff, we had a job that mutually changed over at 1pm (vice 3pm) on a Saturday. Needless to say, being Relief, I was invariably Late Turn on a Saturday. My last shift in that job I was actually Early Turn. Yes, you can guess I didn't get relief until 3pm.

Roll forward 20 years when I was a Controller, and he was a Signalling Shift Manager.

Payback time came at about 2am, when I was doing a driver a favour, at the expense of the SSM....

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On 18/11/2020 at 23:41, 101 said:

 

Couldn't agree with you more - DAS sounds like something else that makes me feel even happier with my decision to take redundancy/early retirement!

 

DAS is certainly not compulsory on the TOC I work for. Personally I don't use it , relying on my own route knowledge instead - to coin a phrase , I'll take the DAS doorstep challenge and see whether I'm more efficient than a box. Sadly , some of the information suggested by DAS is incorrect ( linespeeds) - when I raised this with management the answer was that it was "only advisory" so wouldn't be changed - this is a concern to me as some drivers seem to use it like a sat-nav as a substitute for proper route knowledge. Probably the only useful functions are the timekeeping section where it shows how you are running compared to the WTT , and the miles and chains location - useful for when being cautioned or reporting things. I also suggested that DAS should have an "emergency" 9999 login so that if you don't use it but need a precise location in a hurry it goes directly to that screen. As that costs money to do , naturally it has never happened.

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2 minutes ago, Supaned said:

relying on my own route knowledge instead - to coin a phrase , I'll take the DAS doorstep challenge and see whether I'm more efficient than a box.

Several of the drivers I know well have a similar opinion. One had a ride by his DSM who commented he was a few seconds ahead of the DAS every time. I guess the idea is to help out the drivers without the natural talent but as you say it’s then easy to rely on it too much and end up in trouble if it fails and you have little actual knowledge of where you are, especially in fog!

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  • 1 month later...

It is no surprise to any of us who are regularly inflicted by BBC Scotland but their report on this last night barely even formed coherent sentences. They seemed more focused on linking these to the Carmont derailment than actually reporting any facts. Possibly the same people who previously tried to suggest the driver of the derailed train was exceeding the speed limit.

 

It's hard to tell if it is an anti-rail agenda or just the usual standard of so called journalism that passes for news reporting in Scotland.

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On 18/11/2020 at 20:40, Andymsa said:


sorry I have to disagree having actually tried it, any decent train driver can do this keeping a train to time by allowing for route knowledge ect,  If you start to rely on this kind of technology you will undermine the core skill in driving a train. Let me give an actual example, one of our drivers got a please explain why he was 15 minutes late. The reply was DAS told him to do speed X and the system did not take into account of what was actually happening at that time, management reply was common sense should prevail in other words ignore it when needed. DAS is just a tool to save money as you point out and not to run a train to time and get passengers to there destinations on time.

All I use DAS for on our routes is mileage function as a large number of our mileposts are obscured, deteriorated or missing (been reported numerous times). As you say, it’s down to the skill of the driver to know his route and traction capabilities. 

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30 minutes ago, sulzer27jd said:

It is no surprise to any of us who are regularly inflicted by BBC Scotland but their report on this last night barely even formed coherent sentences. They seemed more focused on linking these to the Carmont derailment than actually reporting any facts. Possibly the same people who previously tried to suggest the driver of the derailed train was exceeding the speed limit.

 

It's hard to tell if it is an anti-rail agenda or just the usual standard of so called journalism that passes for news reporting in Scotland.

The BBC clearly trying to link the two events. Very poor and extremely disrespectful for the families. Just allow the RAIB to investigate both cases and wait till the reports published. 

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55 minutes ago, keefer said:

Another one - Two drivers unaware of the 40mph TSR in place between Laurencekirk and Portlethen in December.

 

This was an ESR, not a TSR, and was applied as a precautionary measure against the possible effects of adverse weather rather than for a known actual defect, therefore a different methodology from normal speed restriction procedures. As Eddie R says we should await the RAIB investigation. 

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1 hour ago, keefer said:

Another one - Two drivers unaware of the 40mph TSR in place between Laurencekirk and Portlethen in December.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-55587231

 

RAIB response:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/overspeeding-trains-between-laurencekirk-and-portlethen

Not an RAIB response to the BBC, Its really the other way around, the BBC is reporting on the RAIB statement, and basically just quotes the RAIB.

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