The problem that is Stranraer

[Jamie]

I don't really see any problem at Stranraer per se.  

 

Sure it's at the wrong end of the pier to the town centre, but few people will be commuting into the town by rail, as the next station is Barrhill.  People choosing to head out of Stranraer by rail probably aren't fussed too much if there's adequate parking and if the town bus services link the station to the town centre and housing areas.  As there's little else on the pier now, one would hope that parking was available.  Surely rail could be an attractive "easy option" compared to driving or being rattled around in a bus to the central belt and back?

 

A lot of NI supermarkets seem to be served from Scottish distribution centres, could we not see the likes of the Inverness "Tesco train" where road transport starts on the Irish side of the ferry?

 

As mentioned Girvan - Maybole - Ayr sees more passenger traffic, in part due to a woefully slow circuitous bus service and reasonable onward connections to Glasgow.  Stagecoach Western could readily take chunks out of that if they ran a direct bus service up the A77 from Girvan.

 

Galloway seems somewhat 'forgotten' and remote from the central belt.  Removing infrastructure would just make it even more remote.  Railways are easily lost but murder to reinstate if demand increases in future.

[Flittersnoop]

10 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

True, but the 5(ish) daily trains of 2 cars doesn't justify the amount of money thrown at it every other winter.

 

The politics of railway closures at present means that the line is highly likely to remain part of the network for the foreseeable future. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some scope to develop it into something more than the underused backwater that it is, but that will require investment, probably quite significant. But a relatively scenic line like that might well be able to support some kind of tourist oriented service. A regular (during summer/ peak tourist times) run from Edinburgh to Stranraer with an electric loco to somewhere like Barassie or Newton on Ayr and a kettle to/from Stranraer might draw in enough punters to be worthwhile, and would take some of the Edinburgh tourists down there. Whether they'd have any time to spend any money is another matter... Anyway, that's essentially importing what they do in Japan on routes like the Hisatsu line, and there's a few in this country where we could potentially do something along those lines on the Stranraer line and others.

I tend to agree with you, although who in their right mind would invest any money in a line that hardly anyone would use afterwards? Any tourist taken to Stranraer Harbour station would be very, very disappointed, and to get a more acceptable destination would involve lots of cash. But then again, I visited Blaenau Festiniog on a wet day in the early 1970s, and that was pretty depressing, so who knows?

[Zomboid]

There'd need to be something to do at Stranraer, at least up to a point. My parents did Fort William to Mallaig and found that there was nothing there (on a normal train, but I doubt it would have been huge fun to fill the time with if they'd taken the steam train, and that still does decent business). But being at a harbour the same company as promotes the train could offer a "cruise" on the loch, or a coach ride to something in the local area whilst the train is being sorted out for the return. I've no idea what there is to do in the area, but there must be something that'll kill an hour or two of the afternoon...

Edited November 12, 2020 by Zomboid

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

If anything they would extend the line to Cairnryan.

But that would need EU funding and that supply of cash has been turned off.

Bernard 

 

I still don't see how that would help. Rail travel to Cairnryan via Stranraer (or to be pedantic the area just outside it) would take an extremely long time and no sane ferry passenger would use it!

 

For a rail connection to work it needs a new line coming in from the north like the A77 road does - but what with low cost airlines and the rise of mass car ownership* thats nowhere close to being viable.

 

 

* Note, P&O, the last ferry company to accommodate foot passengers on the Dover Calais route is set to abandon the traffic next year such is the decline in foot passengers.

 

[ardbealach]

I thought ferry passengers were bussed from Ayr to Cairnryan and they did not travel by train south of the town (AM)

[TomJ]

With the closure of the port I don't think its just the railway station that is a problem. Stranraer is one of the most remote towns in Scotland, far from other centres of population - built around a port that is no longer in use. I fear the whole town is at risk of decline. Even without Covid foot passenger numbers must be very low, why would you take a long slow train, bus, ferry route when there's a cheaper and more convenient flight. Vehicle traffic just goes straight to Cairnryan and onto the ferry

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, Flittersnoop said:

If there is, by your own admission, very little traffic south of Girvan, then what is the reason to retain the line, other than sentimentality?

 

As Luckymucklebackit has said, it wouldn't take much more than a landslide or bridge damage for the line to be closed, "temporarily"...

 

And as for reopening the Port Road - was there ever a railway that better succeeded in avoiding every potential source of traffic along its route?!

 

1. As already mentioned, closing lines is (currently) politically unacceptable, even to traditionally anti-rail parties.  

 

2. There is virtually no through traffic on the S&C, and the local traffic between Appleby and Carlisle could transfer easily to Penrith. Yet Network Rail spent millions the other year when it fell off the side of Eden Brows, the sensible option would have been to close it north of Kirkby Thore. But that is politically unacceptable, see 1. 

 

3. The Port Road was built specifically to go after Irish mail traffic, not to serve local populations. It's route reflects that and the sensibilities of the big estates / coastal shiping interests / potential shareholders along the coast who wanted an income from it but didn't want it on their land or in direct competition with their other interests. They had their direct connection eastwards via the almost contemporaneous Kirkcudbright Railway so didn't need the PPR running along the coast, they would make just as much money from it as an inland route. 

[phil-b259]

22 minutes ago, ardbealach said:

I thought ferry passengers were bussed from Ayr to Cairnryan and they did not travel by train south of the town (AM)

 

They are as (1) the train service north of Ayr is much better and (2) Distance / timewise the trip by coach along the A77 is quicker than going the long way round via Stranraer and the train from there.

 

That said I believe there is a local bus service that connects residential areas of Stranraer and Cairnryan via the railway station and is timetabled to meet the trains. This is however not really aimed at ferry travellers as such - more likely for ferry terminal workers and locals moving between the two.

[Flittersnoop]

I still haven't read any reason not to close the line south of Girvan except that it would be "politically unacceptable". Are there really that many votes in south-west Galloway? I suspect that in the near future, when the financial Covid chickens come home to roost, such sentimental thinking may be ditched, sadly.

[keefer]

I think the difference is that with the station/line reopenings, the demand was there but the railway wasn't.

Whereas here, the railway is present but without much in the way of (sizeable) demand.

There had to be a quantifiable reason for the process and expenditure, quite often residential growth in new commuter belts for the bigger towns/cities, and so the reopenings worked.

But if there isn't really anything in the area to sustain, let alone increase traffic over a number of years, then there may come a point when closure may/should be considered.

I suppose it all comes down to costs in the end, as to whether a line is kept going/Parley'd/mothballed/closed completely.

Politicians may well balk at closing a line but it may be more likely if there's no realistic reason to keep it open.

 

[luckymucklebackit]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

There'd need to be something to do at Stranraer, at least up to a point. My parents did Fort William to Mallaig and found that there was nothing there (on a normal train, but I doubt it would have been huge fun to fill the time with if they'd taken the steam train, and that still does decent business). But being at a harbour the same company as promotes the train could offer a "cruise" on the loch, or a coach ride to something in the local area whilst the train is being sorted out for the return. I've no idea what there is to do in the area, but there must be something that'll kill an hour or two of the afternoon...

 

Stranraer is very ordinary but there are some nice places to visit, Portpatrick, Logan Botanical Gardens or Wigtown with its many bookshops, however you would need an local outfit to organise the connecting tours

 

Jim 

[Flittersnoop]

The closest analogy I can think of is the Irish line from Waterford to Rosslare. That closed in 2010 as the number of foot passengers on the ferry declined. Until ordinary passenger numbers pick up again after Covid, perhaps the Girvan - Stranraer line should be mothballed and a bus service substituted?

[lmsforever]

I went to Stranraer once many years ago and felt I was at the end of the world stayed at a lovely caravan site with our van looked over a loch.But regularily an RAF fighter would roar by dropping bombs went well with a calming cup of tea! The area is indeed interesting but the road there is terrible ,you did not go on it when a ferry docked formula one summed the driving.Still wonder how the train service still runs most of the final thirty miles are fields populated with hundreds of sheep.

[darrel]

I agree that in Scotland at least closing a railway line would have been politically unacceptable. England may be a different matter at the moment with the treasury unhappy about all the extra subsidy they are sharpening their knifes. With all Governments spending being much higher costs will need to be cut somewhere. 

The Scottish government have announced they want to see the line electrified from Ayr to Girvan I would expect services from Glasgow to Ayr to be extended to Girvan. 

South of Girvan there is very few people travelling pre covid and even less now, whether passenger numbers rise again to previous levels remains to be seen. The line is expensive to operate given the manual signal boxes. It will require investment in new alternative traction over the next couple of decades. It would be more cost effective to close the line south of Girvan. 

[keefer]

I suppose it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation.

Local attractions and amenities won't be developed unless there are the visitors to make it worthwhile but visitors are unlikely to come in any great number unless the attractions are already there for them.

Edited November 12, 2020 by keefer

[Zomboid]

I'd imagine that most of the tourism that there is in that area is hiking and other outdoor type pursuits, since there doesn't seem to be a huge amount else going on. What kind of transport infrastructure is needed to support that is another thing. Are there any good hikes that start and finish at Barrhill?

 

If there's any desire to develop the area economically then closing the railway and making it even harder to get to/from there isn't likely to be in the agenda.

[Legend]

The Burns Line . American Tourists , when they come back , would love it 

[luckymucklebackit]

17 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I still don't see how that would help. Rail travel to Cairnryan via Stranraer (or to be pedantic the area just outside it) would take an extremely long time and no sane ferry passenger would use it!

 

For a rail connection to work it needs a new line coming in from the north like the A77 road does - but what with low cost airlines and the rise of mass car ownership* thats nowhere close to being viable.

 

 

* Note, P&O, the last ferry company to accommodate foot passengers on the Dover Calais route is set to abandon the traffic next year such is the decline in foot passengers.

 

 

I was looking at the maps of the area last night and it underlined the impossibility of a rail link to the ferry ports (and yes that is ports plural) .  If you drive north from Stranraer along the A77 some remains of the old military railway can still be seen, although i think coastal erosion has encroached on part of the formation.  The main obstacles come at Cairnryan itself.  P&O have the southernmost of the two terminals, and own and have developed everything from the waterline to the A77 and on the other side of the road is private housing with a steep slope behind.  You would need to stop the line short of the P&O depot, but if you did that how would Stena react, their terminal is about two miles north of Cairnryan village, at the old northern terminus of the military railway at Old House Point, to be fair you would have to have two stations, one for each terminal, but I would doubt that P&O would allow a line right through their infrastructure to get to a rival terminal!!

As for coming in from the north, if you drive the A77 you will see why the GSWR went inland, a coastal route would have been mega-expensive to build and would have required extensive tunnelling.   The current route of the road either twists and turns sharply along the shoreline or climbs and falls steeply, particularly between Ballantrae and Glen App.

 

Jim

[Zomboid]

The port isn't really relevant to the railway these days, being so far from any station and passenger journey times between any significant settlement in Scotland and NI will always be highly uncompetitive if you have to get to Loch Ryan. Even if the railway went to Cairnryan it's still too far from Glasgow to be competitive.

 

Foot Passengers (ie the possible rail users, and those who will choose to fly) of course need onward travel on the other side - Larne is quite a way from Belfast, but has a train. The Belfast terminal looks like has a bus to a more appealing part of town... If you're taking a car then the train is useless.

[pH]

About 10 years ago, there was a topic on here about the possible effects of the (then new) Stena terminal at Cairnryan on the railway to Stranraer:
 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/17977-stranraer/

 

[Reorte]

20 hours ago, Zomboid said:

There'd need to be something to do at Stranraer, at least up to a point. My parents did Fort William to Mallaig and found that there was nothing there (on a normal train, but I doubt it would have been huge fun to fill the time with if they'd taken the steam train, and that still does decent business).

Been on the steam train, there's time to go to a pub for a meal and a short wander around - with that much time you don't need a great deal else to do, but I can't really see the journey to Stranraer getting the same response, or it being as pleasant to go for a brief wander around and bite to eat (helps the Mallaig's station is rather more conveniently placed too).

[Reorte]

19 hours ago, Wheatley said:

2. There is virtually no through traffic on the S&C, and the local traffic between Appleby and Carlisle could transfer easily to Penrith. Yet Network Rail spent millions the other year when it fell off the side of Eden Brows, the sensible option would have been to close it north of Kirkby Thore. But that is politically unacceptable, see 1.

The S&C is reasonably important for freight these days, although perhaps not as much with the big reduction in coal traffic. If it was really that sparsely used there wouldn't have been various intermediate block signals added earlier this century, whilst keeping a line open or not can be a political decision altering the signalling isn't, I can't see that that would've been done if it wasn't simply plain needed.

[Nick_Burman]

23 hours ago, Legend said:

getting more on rails either Glasgow- Stranraer  or Carlisle- Stranraer

 

You'll have to reopen the line to Dumfries first in the second case...

 

Cheers NB

[Joseph_Pestell]

I had a week's Freedom of Scotland Rover in May 1980 and used the last day of it to do the Stranraer line and then came back across to Moffat, where I was working, by bus, changing at Dumfries. It's a lovely trip. I would love to do it again.

 

Surely scope to arrange a circular tour from Glasgow using bus and train with a jointly available ticket. Could be very popular with tourists.

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, luckymucklebackit said:

 

I was looking at the maps of the area last night and it underlined the impossibility of a rail link to the ferry ports (and yes that is ports plural) .  If you drive north from Stranraer along the A77 some remains of the old military railway can still be seen, although i think coastal erosion has encroached on part of the formation.  The main obstacles come at Cairnryan itself.  P&O have the southernmost of the two terminals, and own and have developed everything from the waterline to the A77 and on the other side of the road is private housing with a steep slope behind.  You would need to stop the line short of the P&O depot, but if you did that how would Stena react, their terminal is about two miles north of Cairnryan village, at the old northern terminus of the military railway at Old House Point, to be fair you would have to have two stations, one for each terminal, but I would doubt that P&O would allow a line right through their infrastructure to get to a rival terminal!!

As for coming in from the north, if you drive the A77 you will see why the GSWR went inland, a coastal route would have been mega-expensive to build and would have required extensive tunnelling.   The current route of the road either twists and turns sharply along the shoreline or climbs and falls steeply, particularly between Ballantrae and Glen App.

 

Jim

 

I don't see any point in this anyway. If there is a significant demand for Scotland to Belfast foot passengers not by air, it would be better provided by a fast ferry from Ardrossan.