Cement train derailment in Sheffield

[keefer]

3 hours ago, john new said:

Have a look at the RAIB website for the findings on the recent tanker crash and fire in S Wales for proof of the wheels issue. See https://www.gov.uk/government/news/derailment-and-fire-involving-a-tanker-train-at-llangennech-updated-21092020

False flanging also caused the RHTT derailment at Dunkeld & Birnam in October 2018

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/safety-digest-012019-dunkeld-birnam/derailment-of-a-rail-head-treatment-train-near-dunkeld-birnam-29-october-2018

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, Ray H said:

It it H&S, privatisation, a mix of both or is the railway generally so safe these days that those of the grades that would have previously attended are not there anymore ? 

The latter. We (Northern) had a 150 sit down with a damaged bearing at Altrincham a few years ago, it needed a wheelskate to move it to NH. It was there 48 hours longer than it needed to be because both DB recovery crews were already on other jobs. 

 

Also you aren't allowed to leave people on site for 72 hours and just throw tea and sandwiches at them anymore until they've finished. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Wheatley

[Rivercider]

I see that the derailment of a train of PCAs at Cogload in August 1986 seemed to have a similar cause.

A handbrake was left on when the train departed from Westbury and the resultant deep wheel flat struck a check rail at Cogload Junction resulting in derailment (and overturning of some) PCAs.

 

cheers

[peterfgf]

There are a few other things that can contribute to derailment, for example, poor and different spring rates.  The Severn Valley Railway managed to derail a tender this way:

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/derailment-on-severn-valley-railway

Poor load distribution has led to a few container trains being derailed in a few cases (but I wouldn't have thought so here):

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/freight-train-derailment-at-reading-west-junction

Poor wheel flange profile is another but can't find any reports.

[Fat Controller]

16 minutes ago, peterfgf said:

There are a few other things that can contribute to derailment, for example, poor and different spring rates.  The Severn Valley Railway managed to derail a tender this way:

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/derailment-on-severn-valley-railway

Poor load distribution has led to a few container trains being derailed in a few cases (but I wouldn't have thought so here):

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/freight-train-derailment-at-reading-west-junction

Poor wheel flange profile is another but can't find any reports.

Derailments are seldom down to a single cause. The Reading West derailment, along with two intermodal derailments in the Saltley/ Washwood Heath area, were attributed to a combination of wagon and track defects. Neither cause in isolation would have been sufficient, but together they were. The track problem in the cases I mentioned was track twist close to the maximum permissible, but still within parameters. The wagons of at least two of the derailments were unevenly loaded, whilst one also had problems with insufficient greasing on bogie pivots.

[96701]

I remember going out to a tanker train derailment many years ago. There was a mixture of 100t and 45t tanks in the train. Derby RTC were slated to do some trial on a 45t tank, and I was invited to attend. Within an hour of various simulations, the mixing of 100t and 45t tanks  in trains was stopped. The weight relieving from individual wheels of the 45t tanks was alarming.

 

As an aside, I discovered much later on that an acquaintance of mine was driving a Class 40 at the head of the train. He said he felt a bit of a tug on the loco, dropped the window to have a look and was surprised to see a 100t tank in the air.

[APOLLO]

This is an interesting read re track twist etc

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c8ffd40f0b6024100017f/R142010_100818_Wigan_North_Western.pdf

 

Brit15

[peterfgf]

3 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Derailments are seldom down to a single cause. The Reading West derailment, along with two intermodal derailments in the Saltley/ Washwood Heath area, were attributed to a combination of wagon and track defects. Neither cause in isolation would have been sufficient, but together they were. The track problem in the cases I mentioned was track twist close to the maximum permissible, but still within parameters. The wagons of at least two of the derailments were unevenly loaded, whilst one also had problems with insufficient greasing on bogie pivots.

Totally agree.  There are often two, three, four, or more contributions, each of which on their own wouldn't have been a problem, but taken together cause a failure or accident.  It's the small and seemingly innocuous things, which added together, give rise to problems.  I'm more at home with marine engineering failures and investigations, but I doubt it is much different on railways.
If sods law doesn't work then Murphy's law will work.  You really have to be vigilant about the small details.

Peterfgf

[NorthEndCab]

I’d expect the “they don’t know what they’re doing anymore, probably can’t shift the wagons until they’ve done a political correctness course, not like in the old days when they just used to......” comments from those railway haters over on railforums, not from here  ;-)

 

In all seriousness, stuff doesn’t derail as much as it used to because the Pway is maintained to a better standard so you’re going to lose the wide availability of skilled people you’d once have needed. 
 

It’s a particularly nasty place for it to happen because it’s particularly cramped on the North and South approaches to Sheffield, would a powerful enough rail-crane be in gauge to get through east-bank tunnel or from the North?

 

I know the old hands have plenty of story’s about borrowing a loading JCB to bury wagons that fell off the road in ballast sidings, and smashing though buffer stops on depots only to borrow some chains and use an 08 to pull them back and then disappearing off to the pub for a few pints before anyone noticed, but those days have gone. And the railway is safer (if not blander) for it. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by NorthEndCab

[john new]

1 hour ago, peterfgf said:

Totally agree.  There are often two, three, four, or more contributions, each of which on their own wouldn't have been a problem, but taken together cause a failure or accident.  It's the small and seemingly innocuous things, which added together, give rise to problems.  I'm more at home with marine engineering failures and investigations, but I doubt it is much different on railways.
If sods law doesn't work then Murphy's law will work.  You really have to be vigilant about the small details.

Peterfgf

 

The brother of  a guy I worked with was killed in an example of this , Great Heck. 

 

Phase 1 - relatively minor road problem but a Land Rover ended up on ECML. (outcome better road barriers for selected railway over bridges).

 

Phase 2 - escalates the issue as resultant crash of pax express fouls  opposing line despite staying roughly upright and in-line (ish)

 

Phase 3 - wreckage pf Phase 2 hit by heavy freight coming the other way.

 

I guess a few minutes difference in any of the phases would have resulted in a remarkably different outcome,

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by john new

[Wheatley]

37 minutes ago, NorthEndCab said:

In all seriousness, stuff doesn’t derail as much as it used to because the Pway is maintained to a better standard so you’re going to lose the wide availability of skilled people you’d once have needed. 

Quite. I did a derailment investigation course years ago as part on my on call commitment. It was huge fun but in the 5 years I was on call I never used it once. If I had needed it I suspect I'd have been so out if practice I'd be more hindrance on site than help. We stopped non-ops senior managers and directors doing PTS 'just in case' for the same reason, they were lethal on site. 

 

Conversely I reckon I could still do Working of Single Lines by Pilotman (1990s rules) in my sleep because the block between Barnsley and Huddersfield fell over so often we were doing it almost every week. 

 

[russ p]

23 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I see that the derailment of a train of PCAs at Cogload in August 1986 seemed to have a similar cause.

A handbrake was left on when the train departed from Westbury and the resultant deep wheel flat struck a check rail at Cogload Junction resulting in derailment (and overturning of some) PCAs.

 

cheers

 

Up until a few years ago drivers would routinely look back along the train looking for sparks or smoke.

These days you seriously dare not at the risk ok being beheaded. Network rails management of lineside vegetation is absolutely appalling 

[Rugd1022]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

 

Up until a few years ago drivers would routinely look back along the train looking for sparks or smoke.

These days you seriously dare not at the risk ok being beheaded. Network rails management of lineside vegetation is absolutely appalling 

 

I agree Russ, but there are still some places where I do it regularly, keeping my wits about me obviously.

[russ p]

45 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

I agree Russ, but there are still some places where I do it regularly, keeping my wits about me obviously.

 

I do sometimes but nowhere near as much as I used to .

I put some complaints in a few months back when testing the ploughs,  had 66s and was horrendous no way I would ever take them out in the dark . I'd only take them out in the dark with 37s as at least you can see a bit without leaning out 

[Poor Old Bruce]

17 hours ago, john new said:

 

The brother of  a guy I worked with was killed in an example of this , Great Heck. 

 

Phase 1 - relatively minor road problem but a Land Rover ended up on ECML. (outcome better road barriers for selected railway over bridges).

 

Phase 2 - escalates the issue as resultant crash of pax express fouls  opposing line despite staying roughly upright and in-line (ish)

 

Phase 3 - wreckage pf Phase 2 hit by heavy freight coming the other way.

 

I guess a few minutes difference in any of the phases would have resulted in a remarkably different outcome,

 

You are right about the unfortunate timing at Heck. If the coal train had been 1 miniute earlier it would have passed the collision point, a minute later and the express would have been at a stand. There may still have been a collision but hitting a train at a  stand would be a bit different to hitting one doing 80 or 90 MPH. Conversely stuff could have ended up in the Aire and Calder Canal.

[cheesysmith]

Went past last night a 2200 (when my work finishes), and the undamaged wagons had been re-railed and were being towed away. They were still unloading the wagons, and the crane was in position to lift. There was some of the cut down bogie box wagons used for ballast spoil on site. Are they intending to dig down and relay everything from the accident? 

[Talltim]

Interesting pic here from a few days ago. Wonder when the last time the bays saw a loco was?

Sheffield Station 14/11/20 by pgweber, on Flickr

Edited November 17, 2020 by Talltim

[eastwestdivide]

All the platforms open now. The Traksy signalling map shows NOGO on the spur off platform 1 and on the through line beside the north end of P1:

[Talltim]

I noticed that some of the wagons have been stabled in Northern’s small yard at the south end of the station. I’m guessing these were the ones that derailed worst (minus the one that fell over)

 

[Wheatley]

The ones in Shrewsbury Rd sidings are to be recovered by road, that being the road access point. I believe the north end of the through sidings has been plain lined for now but I'm not certain. 

[Railfreight1998]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/freight-train-derailment-at-sheffield-station

 

RAIB news today.

[john new]

Interesting to note the possibility of track faults and that it was a freight train again derailing as per the published suspicions about Eastleigh and the findings about Wanstead Park. It will be interesting long term to read the collective report set and any resultant Safety Digest. Not time to speculate, the formal investigations will be published when complete, and there are other possibilities as to cause.

[Poor Old Bruce]

No need to speculate, the statement sums it up as track spread due to faulty/broken rail fastenings. Loaded 50t GLW wagons will create significant curving and track spreading forces, particularly with pedestal suspensions which allow little or no yaw freedom to the wheelsets.

 

The only things you could speculate on are how long the fastening have been broken an why nobody spotted them. In fairness, the static track gauge would probably have been within limits without a train present. Observance of passing trains may have shown deficiencies but these days you try not to have people on the track where lots of trains are moving about if you can help it. Even the track recording car, being lighter axle loads, would have lower curving/spreading forces.

[TheSignalEngineer]

17 minutes ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

Observance of passing trains may have shown deficiencies but these days you try not to have people on the track where lots of trains are moving about if you can help it. Even the track recording car, being lighter axle loads, would have lower curving/spreading forces.

Today we have a lot of reliance on technology. It is only as good as the knowledge level of those specifying it and writing the algorithm for the computer to analyse the collected data. 

In the period from 1966 to 1996 I spent a lot of time on-track and riding on trains, both passenger and freight. I could spot many potential faults in points and track circuits just by watching how the track behaved and sounded as a train passed over it. Do any of the algorithms know how to pick up the noise of a loose stretcher bolt or track fastening as a train goes through?

With the accent on not having people on track with trains running and loss of local knowledge due to fragmentation and outsourcing that sort of experience has largely disappeared from the industry. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by TheSignalEngineer

[Poor Old Bruce]

6 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Today we have a lot of reliance on technology. It is only as good as the knowledge level of those specifying it and writing the algorithm for the computer to analyse the collected data. 

In the period from 1966 to 1996 I spent a lot of time on-track and riding on trains, both passenger and freight. I could spot many potential faults in points and track circuits just by watching how the track behaved and sounded as a train passed over it. Do any of the algorithms know how to pick up the noise of a loose stretcher bolt or track fastening as a train goes through?

With the accent on not having people on track with trains running and loss of local knowledge due to fragmentation and outsourcing that sort of experience has largely disappeared from the industry. 

 

It's not easy to replace experience with a machine.