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Rails of Sheffield Improved Precedent Class


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14 minutes ago, 9402 Fredrick said:

This transitional livery was also uaed on two of the Bachmann L&YR Class 5s.

I should specify, the Class 5s carry the early crimson, what I mean by transitional is before they decided on how the lettering should be placed on the engine, IE the small LMS on the cabside

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1 hour ago, Synch said:

One curiosity I had was to the LMS Crimson example, aside from what I believe is the first RTR example of this particular transitional livery, but I'm unsure if the wheels would have been fully painted?  Was this typical of Crewe and/or the LMS prior to 1925/26?

Seems questionable if Brian Haresnape is correct in Railway Liveries - LMS (ISBN 0 7110 1281 4) or the combi edition (ISBN 0 7110 1829 4) where he states "Many locomotives appear to have had a yellow line on the wheel rims close to the spokes; the wheels themselves being painted black."

 

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1 hour ago, Butler Henderson said:

790 Hardwicke - the white roof has been applied since the loco was withdrawn from railtour use, c.1990s

 

Can anyone clarify why a white roof was painted please? Did the LNWR originally do it?

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30 minutes ago, MonsalDan said:

What sort of work did these engines do by 1910 and into LMS days?

 

There's a lovely picture in one of my favourite books, the "LMS in the West Midlands" by P B Whitehouse, of Precedent no. 2194 'Cambrian' at Tamworth in 1924, 'smart and clean in its old LNWR livery... complete with class A headlamps but with non-corridor stock', plate 217.

 

Worth seeking out this book for some great images of the LMS and informative captions.

 

All the best,

 

Keith

 

 

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3 hours ago, Synch said:

 

 

One curiosity I had was to the LMS Crimson example, aside from what I believe is the first RTR example of this particular transitional livery, but I'm unsure if the wheels would have been fully painted?  Was this typical of Crewe and/or the LMS prior to 1925/26?

 

 

According to an official specification, reproduced in Essey & Jenkinson's LMS Locomotives, on the very first red liveried locos the wheels should be black with ½" yellow lining on the tyres

 

However an official works grey picture shown has black parts black & red parts grey, including the wheels.

It does note that official grey portraits should not be taken verbatim, as there were often discrepancies compared to a properly painted engine.

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15 minutes ago, tractionman said:

 

There's a lovely picture in one of my favourite books, the "LMS in the West Midlands" by P B Whitehouse, of Precedent no. 2194 'Cambrian' at Tamworth in 1924, 'smart and clean in its old LNWR livery... complete with class A headlamps but with non-corridor stock', plate 217.

 

Worth seeking out this book for some great images of the LMS and informative captions.

 

All the best,

 

Keith

 

 

Will do, thank you!

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9 hours ago, Talltim said:

Seems weird that the first withdrawal was 4 years after the last one was built

 

8 hours ago, meatloaf said:

The 9F was almost the same.

 

92220 completed in 1960 and the first 9F withdrawn in May 1964

Isnt the class 373 Eurostar power car,  3308, at the NRM completely unused ?

Stored since new, then used for spares, ever since.

 

 

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3 hours ago, 9402 Fredrick said:

This transitional livery was also uaed on two of the Bachmann L&YR Class 5s.

And on the LYR Dreadnoughts.

I hope they come rtr at some point too.

 

Anyways nice choice (ive ordered the Locomotion version of Hardwicke, so I can run it with mk1’s :-)

 

I need think between Novelty and Lucknow.. It looks great in red, but many historic pictures show these double headed in LNWR black... choices.

 

 

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Several ordered in the original glorious iteration - look forward to these. Hopefully we will see more of the much neglected Pre-Grouping locos now the market is saturated with later stuff - an antidote to endless BR-everything. It'd be great if there were some RTR LNWR coaches too. Maybe this new product will provide a stimulus there too. Bravo to all concerned - these look absolutely superb....!

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3 hours ago, Synch said:

I should specify, the Class 5s carry the early crimson, what I mean by transitional is before they decided on how the lettering should be placed on the engine, IE the small LMS on the cabside

 

Or not to put the lettering on the engine.

 

The idea was ditched after a very short time as the Midland Railway men in charge didn't take into consideration that the LNWR and L&YR swapped tenders when going through works. So they would have had to repaint tenders each time they were paired with a different locomotive.

 

 

Jason

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18 hours ago, JSpencer said:

What? No BR coloured version? I want one for BR.  Would No. 1673 Lucknow’ in LNWR Black livery make a good doner for BR black livery?

(Well, someone had to ask!! :D)

 

Just ordered one from Locomotion, now when is Gladstone coming?  


Gladstone: Given that the Society saved it we did consider this a few years ago as a possible SLS commissioned project, unfortunately the tentative initial enquiries showed the financial aspects were too high a % of our assets for us to risk. It would make a delightful model, but I doubt we will ever be able to commission it, hopefully, someone else will. Perhaps for the centenary of it’s preservation.

 

Apologies for the thread drift.

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9 hours ago, Otis JB said:

 

Can anyone clarify why a white roof was painted please? Did the LNWR originally do it?

 

It was, I believe, part of a display at the NRM on Royal Train locomotives. Whether an Improved Precedent ever carried this on Royal Train duties during LNWR days, you'd have to dig further, but I think not. 

 

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15 minutes ago, john new said:


Gladstone: Given that the Society saved it we did consider this a few years ago as a possible SLS commissioned project, unfortunately the tentative initial enquiries showed the financial aspects were too high a % of our assets for us to risk. It would make a delightful model, but I doubt we will ever be able to commission it, hopefully, someone else will. Perhaps for the centenary of it’s preservation.

 

Apologies for the thread drift.

Never say never. I have high hopes. How many other 0-4-2 preserved tender engines are there?

(I can only think of Lion).

 

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7 hours ago, Methuselah said:

Several ordered in the original glorious iteration - look forward to these. Hopefully we will see more of the much neglected Pre-Grouping locos now the market is saturated with later stuff - an antidote to endless BR-everything. It'd be great if there were some RTR LNWR coaches too. Maybe this new product will provide a stimulus there too. Bravo to all concerned - these look absolutely superb....!

 

Well you could always consider Hatton's generic Genesis coaches or alternatively the Ratio LNWR coach kits.  They are not difficult to build and despite a two tone livery are fairly easy to paint if you ignore the lining - which at distance is almost impossible to see.

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7 minutes ago, MPR said:

NSWGR No.1 - which is very much LNWR deign in origin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotive_No._1

 

In addition to 1, Number 78 is preserved at Thirlmere. The 8 in the class were built in the mid 1870s. 78 was on display at Enfield Loco depot from the mid 1920s and wen the site was used as the first by the Rail Transport Museum she became part of the collection.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

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45 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

Never say never. I have high hopes. How many other 0-4-2 preserved tender engines are there?

(I can only think of Lion).

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/E/e5.php

A obvious candidate for a model !! one at Darlington.

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/E/e4.php

 

at Bressingham .

 

Locations taken from above pages , they may now be elsewhere.

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8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Or not to put the lettering on the engine.

 

The idea was ditched after a very short time as the Midland Railway men in charge didn't take into consideration that the LNWR and L&YR swapped tenders when going through works. So they would have had to repaint tenders each time they were paired with a different locomotive.

 

"A very short time" = five years. The move to putting LMS on the tenders was made in 1928, along with the decision that almost all engines would be black. Also, while you're busy hacking off the supposed Midland men in charge (rather far from the truth) you need to explain how it came about that the LNER and Southern were also putting engine numbers on tenders at this period! 

 

When tenders were renumbered, I presume the old transfers were rubbed off and new ones applied, without the necessity of a full repaint. But Crewe seems to have been slow to adopt the red livery for passenger engines undergoing overhaul (as opposed to newly-built engines). I don't have the Essery & Jenkinson LMS Locomotives books; is there any record of repainting dates? Were all ever painted red? I wouldn't be altogether surprised if some class members had slipped through from wartime unlined black to LMS 1928 black!

 

The thing that did change very quickly was the LMS lettering on the cab side - this was a temporary arrangement for passenger engines, rapidly superseded by the roundel. Goods engines kept the LMS, in a rectangular panel (corners varied).

 

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16 hours ago, dagrizz said:

 

I know the history of the LNWR 0-8-0 class is rather complex, but did the version as made by Bachmann actually exist in LNWR days?

 

Graham

 

15 hours ago, dagrizz said:

 

I've just checked my own Bachmann model (49064) and it has a Belpaire firebox which were not fitted to these locos until after the Grouping. I do not know if Bachmann also produced a round topped boiler version.

 

Graham

 

Some locos fitted with Belpaire boilers in the 1920s retained their LNWR numbers for a while which means that the version as modelled by Bachmann did exist in LNWR livery but it was not in LNWR days.

 

Bachmann have not done the round topped firebox version.

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11 hours ago, MonsalDan said:

What sort of work did these engines do by 1910 and into LMS days?

 

Some were on secondary passenger duties - the CK&PR was a classic location where some late survivors hung on - but many were still on front-line express passenger duties well inti the 1920s. The trouble is, you need a Claughton or Prince of Wales for the Precedent to be hurrying along! There was a lot of double-heading on the WCML in those days. The non-superheated Experiment 4-6-0s are credited by Nock with the highest maximum speed attained by any LNWR, with several giving speeds in the high 80s / low 90s, coming down from Shap in either direction. Charles Rous-Marten recorded 90 mph at Tebay with No. 830 Phosphorus and an unrecorded (!) Precedent - so the Precedents are undoubtedly the second-fastest LNWR class. (Nock also has Madge listed with the third highest recorded maximum in the 19th century, 88¼ mph and of course one can speculate what maximum Hardwicke might have reached coming down to Penrith. Those fast runs down towards Carlisle are really quite alarming to think of, when one recalls the amount of straightening that went on with the electrification.

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3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

What recommendations do folk have for replacement name and numberplates?

Quote from us on Facebook on Rails post about this loco

 

247 developments 2016 will need to enlarge the range of Precedent Class we Stock. We only do 4 Names/Numbers at the moment but we are planning to do more by the time these are released

 

http://www.247developments.co.uk/PRE_GROUPING_1.html

 

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6 minutes ago, 247 Developments said:

247 developments 2016 will need to enlarge the range of Precedent Class we Stock. We only do 4 Names/Numbers at the moment but we are planning to do more by the time these are released

 

http://www.247developments.co.uk/PRE_GROUPING_1.html

 

 

Excellent - a full set of Teutonic plates I see, no doubt reflecting the LRM kit. I assume Jeanie Deans is correctly spelt on the plate itself?

 

Now, can anyone tell me which Precedents were allocated to Aston, Monument Lane, or other West Midlands sheds, c. 1902/3?

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