Rails of Sheffield Improved Precedent Class

[Steamport Southport]

9 minutes ago, Darius43 said:

I’m pretty certain that 3D scanning was shown on the recent Hornby Model World programme - albeit for a Scalextrix car rather than a railway prototype.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

And Airfix. 

 

But my point still stands. Needing to "scan" a prototype to make a model is a misnomer. Hardly anyone is scanning prototypes to make models. Most are still doing it the old fashioned way of using drawings and measuring them.

 

 

Jason

[farren]

 

 

Dapol scanned the class 52 donkeys years ago and considering Bachmann when announced their 117 5years ago they  had already scanned the class 117 would point to most companies now using scanning at part of their pre- production work. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by farren

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's an explanation but not a justification!

Yes it is - though not one customers may want to hear.

 

Remember the prime purpose of Hornby, etc is to make money for shareholders. Said shareholders really don’t care exactly what the product is Hornby are selling (which is why Hornby have tried several times to move into other market segments that have nothing to do with railways or slot cars over the decades) as long as they get dividends / the shares they hold can be sold for high prices.

 

This is what gets me about certain political parties being obsessed with Capitalism. While it has its place in the economic toolbox it certainly has downsides and is not necessarily suitable for all aspects of life (or even retail).

Edited December 19, 2021 by phil-b259

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Remember the prime purpose of Hornby, etc is to make money for shareholders. Said shareholders really don’t care exactly what the product is Hornby are selling (which is why Hornby have tried several times to move into other market segments that have nothing to do with railways or slot cars over the decades) as long as they get dividends / the shares they hold can be sold for high prices.

 

True enough but ultimately there are moral constraints on how that money is made. Duplicity and deception of the customer is generally frowned on. But on the scale of corporate wrongdoing, I'll accept that passing off an RCH 1923 12 ton wagon as a pre-1923 10 ton wagon is relatively small beer!

[Methuselah]

Out of interest - when did all the ex-LNWR coaches get withdrawn.....?

 

[Steamport Southport]

3 minutes ago, Methuselah said:

Out of interest - when did all the ex-LNWR coaches get withdrawn.....?

 

 

Mid 1950s with the mass introduction of the BR Mark Ones and DMUs. They had quite a long life of about forty to fifty years.

 

That's the bogie coaches. The 4 and 6 wheel stock was mostly gone by the 1920s.

 

Best source for earlier stock is LRM.

 

http://www.londonroadmodels.co.uk/

 

51L/Wizard are best for the more modern types. As well as the Ratio kits.

 

As an example look at the instructions here.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/lnwd307/

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, farren said:

 

 

Dapol scanned the class 52 donkeys years ago and considering Bachmann when announced their 117 5years ago they  had already scanned the class 117 would point to most companies now using scanning at part of their pre- production work. 

Could you point me to where I can see GT3, as my dad was responsible for signing off cutting it up at Wards.

Pretty certain on that basis KR haven't scanned it, for OO, unless my old man hid it (which I wouldn't put past him)… perhaps its hidden with Fell, 10201, 10000, Kestrel, Falcon, Dhp1, leader, Lion, Class 16,21,22,23,29, LNER 02, 47xx, W1, P2, 60700, A2/x, MR1P, early GW railcar, original MN all of which are less than a decade old with no known survivors.

 

Drawings, photographs can be used today to create perspectives  and drawings can be used together to make CADs.. look at the forthcoming Sonic models GCR A5.. end to end designed in China, without UK research aiui.

back to the LNW I think…

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by adb968008

[john new]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Could you point me to where I can see GT3, as my dad was responsible for signing off cutting it up at Wards.

Pretty certain on that basis KR haven't scanned it, for OO unless my old man hid it (which I wouldn't put past him)… perhaps its hidden with Fell, 10201, 10000, Kestrel, Falcon, Dhp1, leader, Lion, Class 16,21,22,23,29, LNER 02, 47xx , early GW railcar all of which are less than a decade old with no known survivors.

 

 

My guess based on my own scanning of both 2D images and text/OCR (together with seeing video of 3d scanning) is that it isn't fool proof BUT saves a lot of time over starting from scratch. Whilst not a 3D printing person I guess the same thing applies, overall, namely enough staff time is saved to justify the cost of scanning in just the same way OCRing a long document is quicker for me than typing afresh to get to the proof reading stage; the proof reading time then takes roughly the same time irrespective of the source.

[farren]

16 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Could you point me to where I can see GT3, as my dad was responsible for signing off cutting it up at Wards.

Pretty certain on that basis KR haven't scanned it, for OO, unless my old man hid it (which I wouldn't put past him)… perhaps its hidden with Fell, 10201, 10000, Kestrel, Falcon, Dhp1, leader, Lion, Class 16,21,22,23,29, LNER 02, 47xx, W1, P2, 60700, A2/x, MR1P, early GW railcar, original MN all of which are less than a decade old with no known survivors.

back to the LNW I think…

 

No I never said all locos or did I imply that locos that no longer exist where scanned. I simply pointed out that Bachmann Heljan and Dapol do use laser scanning as part of their research. I did not think it would be necessary to stress that laser scanning isn’t used on locos that no longer exist or models designed before laser scanning was in the use by modelling companies. However I will endeavour to remember to point this in the future for those who may have trouble.

Edited December 19, 2021 by farren

[Steamport Southport]

9 minutes ago, farren said:

No I never said all locos or did I imply that locos that no longer exist where scanned. All I said was to point out that Bachmann Heljan and Dapol use laser scanning as part of their research. I did not think it would be Necessary to stress that laser scanning isn’t used on Locos that no longer exist or models designed before laser scanning was in the use by modelling companies. However I remember this in the future for those who may have trouble.

 

Which is why I said a "handful" were scanned. But only a handful.

 

We've named about five. Where are all the others? If scanning was commonplace they would be out every day scanning locomotives and rolling stock. Yet every time I do see footage or photographs of the researchers  measuring items it's a bloke with a ranging pole and tape measure, not a scanner.

 

 

The Class 52 by Dapol was done by Dave Jones who I believe knew someone who could do the scanning on the cheap....

 

I don't think they've scanned anything since.

 

 

Jason

Edited December 19, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[craigowen1976]

Back to the drooling… Very pleased to introduce “Lucknow” to the metals of Hereford station. She’s unquestionably a beauty! I’m very much looking forward to stretching wheels on the garden railway with a rake of LNWR 6-wheelers soon.

 

Does anyone have any knowledge of 4mm nameplate manufacturers with Precedent plates (or who can produce them to order / from scratch)? I’ve scouted out the usual suspects - Fox, Modelmaster JE, etc - and I understand the LNWR Society (PC Plates) stocks were cleared out some years ago (I ordered some at the time (about 2013) for a Precursor, for which they sent me their last remaining in stock). I’m sure I’m not the only one who would love to love to do an identity swap for the many amazing names carried by the class… Caractacus, Ganymede, Alecto, Pluck, Merrie Carlisle, Penrith Beacon, Plynlimmon, Llewellyn, Isabella, Mabel, and the Shah of Persia offering just a flavour of the difficult decisions that could follow!

 

If no RTR plates are currently available, it strikes me the Precedents could be quite a popular bandwagon to hop on… v easy to re-idtentify too, with no decals involved, and a very beautiful ‘life model’… ;-) 

[AY Mod]

14 minutes ago, craigowen1976 said:

Does anyone have any knowledge of 4mm nameplate manufacturers with Precedent plates (or who can produce them to order / from scratch)?

 

A starting point and an open door to lean on. 

 

http://247developments.co.uk/PRE_GROUPING_1.html

[Battledown]

24 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Does anyone have any knowledge of 4mm nameplate manufacturers with Precedent plates (or who can produce them to order / from scratch)?

London Road Models produce kit for the Improved Precedent with name and number plates for four of the class; Hardwicke, Charles Dickens, Cromwell and Booth. They come as a set on a separate fret for all four. I’ve always found John Redrup, the owner, to be really helpful so suggest you contact him to see if he would supply them separately. 
 

London Road Models
PO Box 643
Watford
Herts
WD18 6ZU

 

londonroadmodels@btinternet.com

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Methuselah said:

Out of interest - when did all the ex-LNWR coaches get withdrawn.....?

 

You can take a lifetime of around 35-45 years in traffic as a rule of thumb, though of course there are exceptions.

 

Of the 50 ft corridor carriages of 1898-1902, represented by the Ratio kits, a good number survived to participate in the LMS' great renumbering of 1933 but probably not much after that. (Jenkinson's LNWR Carriages does not give withdrawal dates, which I think implies none survived to nationalisation.) There were a few survivors to the 1950s from the ones that had been transferred to the M&GN in LMS days and had become LNER stock.

 

If you look at the elliptical-roof 57 ft carriages built from 1908 onwards, many of which had the same interior layout as their LMS successors, last withdrawals are typically in the mid-1950s but the earliest withdrawals can be up to two decades earlier.

 

 

[Compound2632]

57 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

A starting point and an open door to lean on. 

 

http://247developments.co.uk/PRE_GROUPING_1.html

 

I think it was suggested upthread that 247 were setting up to produce a full range of Improved Precedent name and number plates? Is that true / how far have they actually got? There are 160 to do, from Abercrombie to Wordsworth.

[Helmdon]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You can take a lifetime of around 35-45 years in traffic as a rule of thumb, though of course there are exceptions.

 

Of the 50 ft corridor carriages of 1898-1902, represented by the Ratio kits, a good number survived to participate in the LMS' great renumbering of 1933 but probably not much after that. (Jenkinson's LNWR Carriages does not give withdrawal dates, which I think implies none survived to nationalisation.) There were a few survivors to the 1950s from the ones that had been transferred to the M&GN in LMS days and had become LNER stock.

 

If you look at the elliptical-roof 57 ft carriages built from 1908 onwards, many of which had the same interior layout as their LMS successors, last withdrawals are typically in the mid-1950s but the earliest withdrawals can be up to two decades earlier.

 

 

At which point of course some went into departmental use. Chinnor have got one in use as the headquarter coach at Princes Risborough (for booking on etc)

[PaulRhB]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think it was suggested upthread that 247 were setting up to produce a full range of Improved Precedent name and number plates? Is that true / how far have they actually got? There are 160 to do, from Abercrombie to Wordsworth.

Last post from Brian said he’s working on the list and his original post further back asked what names people were after rather than attempting all of them  

On 01/09/2021 at 20:38, 247 Developments said:

Were working on the Art work for the etches Hopefully it won't be to long before we can get them etched

 

[PaulRhB]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

think it was suggested upthread that 247 were setting up to produce a full range

back to p6 and Brian asking for specific names

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

10 hours ago, Battledown said:

London Road Models produce kit for the Improved Precedent with name and number plates for four of the class; Hardwicke, Charles Dickens, Cromwell and Booth. They come as a set on a separate fret for all four. I’ve always found John Redrup, the owner, to be really helpful so suggest you contact him to see if he would supply them separately. 
 

London Road Models
PO Box 643
Watford
Herts
WD18 6ZU

 

londonroadmodels@btinternet.com

 

 

London Road Models also produced a large selection of pre-painted LNWR loco number plates and some name/number plates in addition to the set on the LNWR Jumbo kit etch. They were stored in a display box which appeared on the LRM exhibition stand counter. Contact LRM on;

 

londonroadmodels@btinternet.com

 

Edited to add.

 

I have just found a list from 2004 when they were introduced. The only relevant Jumbo plates are for 

 

1666  Ariadne

 

Odd considering how popular the kit has been, but in those days 247 Developments were known as the go to people for etched plates and used to attend quite a lot of exhibitions.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Jol Wilkinson

[Battledown]

I built a LRM kit in P4 for a friend some years ago. I remember it being a tricky but accurate kit that built up into a nice model. I could not hope to match the crispness and finish of the livery of the Rails/Bachmann one though!

[Poor Old Bruce]

15 hours ago, Methuselah said:

Out of interest - when did all the ex-LNWR coaches get withdrawn.....?

 

There are several published photos showing whole trains of 6-wheel coaches in the late 1920s, still in LNWR livery to boot.

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Battledown said:

I built a LRM kit in P4 for a friend some years ago. I remember it being a tricky but accurate kit that built up into a nice model. I could not hope to match the crispness and finish of the livery of the Rails/Bachmann one though!

 

Of the LRM locos I have built I have found the 1800g and 2000g tenders the hardest part, so I always build those first. The loco bodies have never been too difficult. 

 

I have had three LNWR locos painted professionally by Ian Rathbone but painted the rest myself, airbrushed with cellulose paint, lined with waterslide and HMRS Pressfix transfers and varnished with Ian R's recommended Ronseal gloss varnish with PPP matting agent and a small amount of Humbrol black. Of course I can't match Ian's work nor would I expect to match what a Chinese factory that specialises in this sort of work can achieve with the latest production technology. However it is possible to achieve reasonably good results as this picture, courtesy of Paul Bason/Railway.Modeller.

 

The loco on the left is a Whitworth 2-4-0, painted by Ian Rathbone, the Watford Tank  was painted and lined as I described.

 

 

I would like to believe that the new Improved Precedent model (and  other pre-group locos) will inspire others to more actively model the pre 1923 era, but I think that may be rather a forlorn hope. 

 

14 minutes ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

 

There are several published photos showing whole trains of 6-wheel coaches in the late 1920s, still in LNWR livery to boot.

 

Loco and carriage liveries weren't changed overnight after the grouping. It is quite possible that the six wheelers were  reaching the end of their working lives and it wasn't considered economic to repaint them. By the late twenties they were probably mainly used on workmen's trains.

[Battledown]

8 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I have had three LNWR locos painted professionally by Ian Rathbone but painted the rest myself, airbrushed with cellulose paint, lined with waterslide and HMRS Pressfix transfers and varnished with Ian R's recommended Ronseal gloss varnish with PPP matting agent and a small amount of Humbrol black. Of course I can't match Ian's work nor would I expect to match what a Chinese factory that specialises in this sort of work can achieve with the latest production technology. However it is possible to achieve reasonably good results as this picture, courtesy of Paul Bason/Railway.Modeller.

Just the method I have used. I have yet to master the bow pen sufficiently so always chicken out and resort to transfers. 

 

10 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I would like to believe that the new Improved Precedent model (and  other pre-group locos) will inspire others to more actively model the pre 1923 era, but I think that may be rather a forlorn hope. 

Pre-grouping is pretty much all I model these days, which is why I have been spending a bit of money recently - D Class, 812 Class and Improved Precedent. I actually build my models in P4 and then put them in a display case. For that reason I am just as happy to buy these excellent OO models and display them alongside my own efforts. Sad, I know, but I love looking at those elegant engines with their ornate liveries - at least I don't keep them in their boxes in a cupboard! 

[Steamport Southport]

15 hours ago, Battledown said:

London Road Models produce kit for the Improved Precedent with name and number plates for four of the class; Hardwicke, Charles Dickens, Cromwell and Booth. They come as a set on a separate fret for all four. I’ve always found John Redrup, the owner, to be really helpful so suggest you contact him to see if he would supply them separately. 
 

London Road Models
PO Box 643
Watford
Herts
WD18 6ZU

 

londonroadmodels@btinternet.com

 

Charles Dickens again?

 

Already got the 'plates for the George The Fifth from 247 for Charles Dickens AND I've got them for a BR 7MT 4-6-2 as they are the ones provided by DJH...

 

I'm not trying to recreate this. But the idea did cross my mind.  

 

https://buckinghamcovers.com/products/view/1586-200th-anniversary-of-the-birth-of-charles-dickens.php

 

 

Nope. Never read anything by him.  

 

 

Jason

[Battledown]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

Nope. Never read anything by him.  

You should - he's one of the greatest social commentators as well as writers.