Rails of Sheffield Improved Precedent Class

[Jol Wilkinson]

Talavera and Lucknow both now listed on eBay by ROS, so presumably not so popular as Lucknow in LNWR livery.

[gwrrob]

After previously stating he wouldn't be buying one of these due to the price, Sam's Trains has changed his mind due to peer pressure and has bought 'Novelty'. His video is now on Yout ube.

[curlypaws]

I find his reviews to be useful on occasion - for example, he was quite honest about the Hornby W1 Hush-Hush issues. At other times, he lets his biases show rather too much.

 

The endless harping about the price of a locomotive becomes a bit wearing, and seems to ignore the economic realities of the pandemic, shipping costs and inflation. I'm sure we'd all love everything to be cheaper, but it isn't happening. And while it may raise some questions regarding the relative price increases in the model railway world (which Euvirail covered much better) it isn't like Bachmann's pricing is particularly far out of line with Hornby's pricing for 2022.

 

Can a model locomotive never be worth £200? Should we expect "all the features possible, and more besides" (from his Caledonian class 812 review)? Neither point seems reasonable to me and while it makes sense to raise the topic of value in a review, complaining about it all the way through just means I unsubscribe.

[amdaley]

I think its hard to find reviews which don't carry a bias of some sort.

I prefer to call it honesty. 

Reading some reviews its clear to see who's paying the bill 

 

On the subject of price increases.

I think if the price of every day items had gone up similar to model railway items then a lot of us would find ourselves in the workhouse. A certain level of price increase is expected & accepted but increases like we see in model railway items will do nothing but decrease the interest in the hobby & put manufacturers out of business.

Looking at some of the prices mentioned in Hornby's 2022 range just made me think ?

In your dreams Simon, in your dreams.

[Free At Last]

 

He does mention the price once or twice but I think he'll get away with it.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Free At Last said:

He does mention the price once or twice but I think he'll get away with it.

Although it pains me to say it, Sam does raise a valid question in the sense that Accurascales forthcoming manor class is not only large and cheaper than the Precedent, but, from what we have seen so far is going to look just as good (if not better) plus feature things like a better drawbar connection and firebox flicker.

 

Now make no mistake, I'm not going to start jumping on the "wha, wha wah its too expensive" bandwagon* - but on the face of it somebody somewhere (or possibly several organisations)  in the chain that has bought the locomotive to us must be, how shall we put it, be making rather large profits from it (or be amazingly inefficient) - because I can't believe that Accurascale are going to be making a loss on their forthcoming manor.

 

 

* I bought Hardwike from Locomotion and am pretty pleased with it.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Free At Last said:

He does mention the price once or twice but I think he'll get away with it.

Although it pains me to say it, Sam does raise a valid question in the sense that Accurascales forthcoming manor class is not only large and cheaper than the Precedent, but, from what we have seen so far is going to look just as good (if not better) plus feature things like a better drawbar connection and firebox flicker.

 

Now make no mistake, I'm not going to start jumping on the "wha, wha wah its too expensive" bandwagon* - but on the face of it somebody somewhere (or possibly several organisations)  in the chain that has bought the locomotive to us must be, how shall we put it, be making rather large profits from it (or be amazingly inefficient) - because I can't believe that Accurascale are going to be making a loss on their forthcoming manor.

 

 

* I bought Hardwike from Locomotion models and am pretty pleased with it.

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Although it pains me to say it, Sam does raise a valid question in the sense that Accurascales forthcoming manor class is not only large and cheaper than the Precedent, but, from what we have seen so far is going to look just as good (if not better) plus feature things like a better drawbar connection and firebox flicker.

 

Now make no mistake, I'm not going to start jumping on the "wha, wha wah its too expensive" bandwagon* - but on the face of it somebody somewhere (or possibly several organisations)  in the chain that has bought the locomotive to us must be, how shall we put it, be making rather large profits from it (or be amazingly inefficient) - because I can't believe that Accurascale are going to be making a loss on their forthcoming manor.

 

 

* I bought Hardwike from Locomotion models and am pretty pleased with it.

But it also depends on what market they think a model has that affects numbers the costs are spread over. A manor probably has a wider market than a small pre group 2-4-0 I suppose too. 

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Although it pains me to say it, Sam does raise a valid question in the sense that Accurascales forthcoming manor class is not only large and cheaper than the Precedent, but, from what we have seen so far is going to look just as good (if not better) plus feature things like a better drawbar connection and firebox flicker.

 

Now make no mistake, I'm not going to start jumping on the "wha, wha wah its too expensive" bandwagon* - but on the face of it somebody somewhere (or possibly several organisations)  in the chain that has bought the locomotive to us must be, how shall we put it, be making rather large profits from it (or be amazingly inefficient) - because I can't believe that Accurascale are going to be making a loss on their forthcoming manor.

 

 

* I bought Hardwike from Locomotion models and am pretty pleased with it.

But it also depends on what market they think a model has that affects numbers the costs are spread over. A manor probably has a wider market than a small pre group 2-4-0 I suppose too. 

[curlypaws]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

But it also depends on what market they think a model has that affects numbers the costs are spread over. A manor probably has a wider market than a small pre group 2-4-0 I suppose too. 

 

I think this is exactly right - particularly with more niche models. If you judge value on some kind of length or weight basis, and you've no real preference on era or region then something like the Precedent will look too expensive.

 

Ultimately it is down to the judgement of the individual as to what represents value. We can probably all think of a favourite locomotive we'd love to see modelled which wouldn't sell in large numbers. And we'd probably be willing to pay a bit more for it as a result, while still considering it good value.

[john new]

5 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Although it pains me to say it, Sam does raise a valid question in the sense that Accurascales forthcoming manor class is not only large and cheaper than the Precedent, but, from what we have seen so far is going to look just as good (if not better) plus feature things like a better drawbar connection and firebox flicker.

 

Now make no mistake, I'm not going to start jumping on the "wha, wha wah its too expensive" bandwagon* - but on the face of it somebody somewhere (or possibly several organisations)  in the chain that has bought the locomotive to us must be, how shall we put it, be making rather large profits from it (or be amazingly inefficient) - because I can't believe that Accurascale are going to be making a loss on their forthcoming manor.

 

 

* I bought Hardwike from Locomotion models and am pretty pleased with it.

 

On the other hand with pricing it is the old question - what is it worth to you, your personal Value For Money (VFM)? 

 

I don't model GWR so a Manor better than an old Mainline one doesn't particularly interest me and firebox flicker is something I don't want so its price exceeds what I perceive as its VFM to me. Same with the recent one-offs like the W1, Leader, Fell et al. 

 

On the other hand I was happy to pay for Hardwicke, plus the Deltic, G5 and Bellerophen that I have on pre-order, reason = three of them stir personal memories of the real thing and the other is needed for my layout. 

 

Conversely Bachman have a new V2 out, I already have an older one which is less accurate; however, the personal VFM for the new one is less than the price being asked so no, not buying it. Same with Hornby's new Black 5, if I want a 2nd one I can live with getting another, older one, 2nd hand.

[PaulRhB]

Bachmann v2 at £185 vs the manor at £170 is a fairer comparison in market on two brand new toolings so yes Accurascale has nipped in under the price but it’s still pretty close. 
Personally the extra to get a more niche loco class is reasonable. The Bachmann j72 is around £105 while the Modelrail J70 is £127.
The Dapol D was £200 eighteen months ago so I think it’s pretty much what we expect for the current market. Note the APT went from £485 to £587, 21% more, in the last 6 months. 

[Legend]

Although these are special commissions by Rails/locomotion and  the Caley by Rails , I’m not sure the quantities produced will be dramatically lower than say the V2 .  The price is set at what they think people will pay for it . While I think this and the Caley is over priced I wanted them so paid the money . 
 

By the way , I think lubrication of this model and the Caley had been pretty light at the factory . My Precedent was squeaking and running a bit haphazardly after a smooth running in . A bit of oil per the instructions and on the tender axles seems to have sorted it . I had the same with one of my Caley 812s 

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Legend said:

The price is set at what they think people will pay for it . While I think this and the Caley is over priced I wanted them so paid the money .

 

So, not in fact overpriced.

[Legend]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So, not in fact overpriced.

 Yep you are correct in that it’s priced to sell to those that really want it . Perhaps not the casual enthusiast though 

[Andy Hayter]

More and more we seem to be inflicted with "too expensive" posts.  I will concede that many new models are no longer cheap but that I am afraid is the way the world is going.

 

Energy and raw material prices are rising very quickly.

China is not prioritising model production as a key industry and producers suffer from electricity cuts.  Staffing is not given priority for these industries.  Consequently the amount these factories can produce are reduced.  So in a year the unit price of a single model has to rise for these factories to remain solvent.

Freight costs have risen many fold.

 

The costs of our models have risen well above inflation.  If you think Rails, Locomotion,  Bachmann or any other manufacturer is charging too much, I suggest you look at this:

 

https://trains.lrpresse.com/A-19607-mixte-marchandises-voyageurs-p-tits-kits-voie-libre-version-montee-peinte.aspx

 

Three narrow gauge wagons/coaches at around £235.  

 

We are going to have to get used to much higher prices than our local inflation rates would suggest as normal.  It is not nice but we need the manufacturers, the producers and the sellers to remain in business then I think we have to reluctantly accept the reality of world economics.

[adb968008]

On 23/01/2022 at 18:45, phil-b259 said:

Although it pains me to say it, Sam does raise a valid question in the sense that Accurascales forthcoming manor class is not only large and cheaper than the Precedent, but, from what we have seen so far is going to look just as good (if not better) plus feature things like a better drawbar connection and firebox flicker.

 

Now make no mistake, I'm not going to start jumping on the "wha, wha wah its too expensive" bandwagon* - but on the face of it somebody somewhere (or possibly several organisations)  in the chain that has bought the locomotive to us must be, how shall we put it, be making rather large profits from it (or be amazingly inefficient) - because I can't believe that Accurascale are going to be making a loss on their forthcoming manor.

 

 

* I bought Hardwike from Locomotion models and am pretty pleased with it.

Accurascale as I understand are a relatively small team, footprint and overheads.

 

The overheads of Hornby, Bachmann etc include warehousing, much larger teams of people and in the case of Hornby, some kind of repayments. Do the smaller website players  have travelling sales teams visiting retailers incurring travel costs, teams of people in Finance, HR, customer Care, Marketing, including publications etc ?

 

it might be Hornby has to at some point slim down and become more agile, but equality over time the overheads of smaller companies are going to stack up and weigh on the margin… but until it happens its easier for a small band to out perform an established one, but growing pains will hit at somepoint.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[McC]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Accurascale as I understand are a relatively small team, footprint and overheads.

 

The overheads of Hornby, Bachmann etc include warehousing, much larger teams of people and in the case of Hornby, some kind of repayments. Do the smaller website players  have travelling sales teams visiting retailers incurring travel costs, teams of people in Finance, HR, customer Care, Marketing, including publications etc ?

 

it might be Hornby has to at some point slim down and become more agile, but equality over time the overheads of smaller companies are going to stack up and weigh on the margin… but until it happens its easier for a small band to out perform an established one, but growing pains will hit at somepoint.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right now we are 14 team

members, with dedicated teams for admin and systems and finance and customer care and projects and production and warranty and more with warehouses in two countries a team on the ground In China and working with 6 factories but we’re definitely still scaling our output. 
 

Surely the point is that the customer gets great value and high standards and why should a customer care about a manufacturers overheads ?

Edited January 28, 2022 by McC

[phil-b259]

 (ish)

 

6 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

More and more we seem to be inflicted with "too expensive" posts.  I will concede that many new models are no longer cheap but that I am afraid is the way the world is going.

 

Energy and raw material prices are rising very quickly.

China is not prioritising model production as a key industry and producers suffer from electricity cuts.  Staffing is not given priority for these industries.  Consequently the amount these factories can produce are reduced.  So in a year the unit price of a single model has to rise for these factories to remain solvent.

Freight costs have risen many fold.

 

The costs of our models have risen well above inflation.  If you think Rails, Locomotion,  Bachmann or any other manufacturer is charging too much, I suggest you look at this:

 

https://trains.lrpresse.com/A-19607-mixte-marchandises-voyageurs-p-tits-kits-voie-libre-version-montee-peinte.aspx

 

Three narrow gauge wagons/coaches at around £235.  

 

We are going to have to get used to much higher prices than our local inflation rates would suggest as normal.  It is not nice but we need the manufacturers, the producers and the sellers to remain in business then I think we have to reluctantly accept the reality of world economics.

 

 

Yes and no!

 

While I agree that the general trend is for higher prices and do not discount the effects of rising labour / materials / logistics costs - NONE of that really answers the question of why some manufacturers like Hornby - and indeed Bachmann several years ago) have imposed big price increases yet others like Accurascale haven't!

 

You can't go round attributing massive price rise to an increase in costs generally (and I don't dispute that they haven't risen significantly over the past 18 months) if only some of the players in the business have raised prices.

 

No, the reality is there are other factors / things going on here which cannot simply be dismissed as 'rising costs'

 

A bit of history here - IIRC the reason Bachmann hiked prices a few years back was because although Bachmann itself was providing a decent return to its parent company (Kader Holdings Company Limited) , the overall toy division (of which Bachmann) was part was running at a loss and to correct this all brands under said Toy division were told to increase profit margins.

 

So, we know Hornby is not in the best way finically speaking (it might be profitable now but is carrying a hell of a lot of debt that needs to be paid back) and as such it would not surprise me (nor would I blame them) if the 'rising costs' has been used to hide an agenda of increasing profits (and thus help pay off some of the huge debt)

 

Also saying 'because costs have gone up blah, blah, etc doesn't answer the question of WHY a smaller and in some respects less detailed / refined models are being retailed at a significantly higher price than Acurascales Manor?

 

Now naturally I am not expecting manufacturers to open up the details of their pricing structure to all and sundry, but - its a valid question which if left un-answered only provides ammunition to the likes of Sams Trains where he is quick to imply profiteering by greedy manufacturers as the cause for high prices on models with what he terms basic flaws*

 

* and yes, I agree with him that the outdated Bachmann drawbar setup where there is nothing to keep the drawbar attached to the peg on the tender has no place on ANY newly tooled model for example!

 

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Accurascale as I understand are a relatively small team, footprint and overheads.

 

The overheads of Hornby, Bachmann etc include warehousing, much larger teams of people and in the case of Hornby, some kind of repayments. Do the smaller website players  have travelling sales teams visiting retailers incurring travel costs, teams of people in Finance, HR, customer Care, Marketing, including publications etc ?

 

it might be Hornby has to at some point slim down and become more agile, but equality over time the overheads of smaller companies are going to stack up and weigh on the margin… but until it happens its easier for a small band to out perform an established one, but growing pains will hit at somepoint.

 

 

This is a very valid point and manufacturers with a large UK presence will naturally face not only a higher cost base, but one where inflationary increases will have much more of a financial impact due to the higher starting point than inflationary pressures in China does (i.e. 10% of £100 is a lot more than 10% of £10).

 

I imagine there will also be differences in how a 'commission' and something developed for general release by the manufacturer might be treated within the likes of Bachmann - which is quite logical as a designer working on a commission cannot by definition be at the exact same time also working on the company's own projects.  

 

On 23/01/2022 at 21:44, PaulRhB said:

But it also depends on what market they think a model has that affects numbers the costs are spread over. A manor probably has a wider market than a small pre group 2-4-0 I suppose too. 

 

Again a valid point - if you are offering 10 models and take 10% cut from each then the revenues could well be grater than 15% of 4. Yes it costs more to make 10 models, but then again there are savings to be made from 'economies of scale' which can offset that to a degree.

 

7 hours ago, Legend said:

 The price is set at what they think people will pay for it . While I think this and the Caley is over priced I wanted them so paid the money . 
 

 

Indeed - but simply trotting out 'they charge what they think people will pay' line does nothing to silence the 'wah, wah too expensive' brigade. Its also a bit of an insult to the intelligence and as we know from life generally, leaving falsehoods floating around on social media never leads to a good result. 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 (ish)

 

 

 

Yes and no!

 

While I agree that the general trend is for higher prices and do not discount the effects of rising labour / materials / logistics costs - NONE of that really answers the question of why some manufacturers like Hornby - and indeed Bachmann several years ago) have imposed big price increases yet others like Accurascale haven't!

 

You can't go round attributing massive price rise to an increase in costs generally (and I don't dispute that they haven't risen significantly over the past 18 months) if only some of the players in the business have raised prices.

 

No, the reality is there are other factors / things going on here which cannot simply be dismissed as 'rising costs'

 

A bit of history here - IIRC the reason Bachmann hiked prices a few years back was because although Bachmann itself was providing a decent return to its parent company (Kader Holdings Company Limited) , the overall toy division (of which Bachmann) was part was running at a loss and to correct this all brands under said Toy division were told to increase profit margins.

 

So, we know Hornby is not in the best way finically speaking (it might be profitable now but is carrying a hell of a lot of debt that needs to be paid back) and as such it would not surprise me (nor would I blame them) if the 'rising costs' has been used to hide an agenda of increasing profits (and thus help pay off some of the huge debt)

 

Also saying 'because costs have gone up blah, blah, etc doesn't answer the question of WHY a smaller and in some respects less detailed / refined models are being retailed at a significantly higher price than Acurascales Manor?

 

Now naturally I am not expecting manufacturers to open up the details of their pricing structure to all and sundry, but - its a valid question which if left un-answered only provides ammunition to the likes of Sams Trains where he is quick to imply profiteering by greedy manufacturers as the cause for high prices on models with what he terms basic flaws*

 

* and yes, I agree with him that the outdated Bachmann drawbar setup where there is nothing to keep the drawbar attached to the peg on the tender has no place on ANY newly tooled model for example!

 

 

This is a very valid point and manufacturers with a large UK presence will naturally face not only a higher cost base, but one where inflationary increases will have much more of a financial impact due to the higher starting point than inflationary pressures in China does (i.e. 10% of £100 is a lot more than 10% of £10).

 

I imagine there will also be differences in how a 'commission' and something developed for general release by the manufacturer might be treated within the likes of Bachmann - which is quite logical as a designer working on a commission cannot by definition be at the exact same time also working on the company's own projects.  

 

 

Again a valid point - if you are offering 10 models and take 10% cut from each then the revenues could well be grater than 15% of 4. Yes it costs more to make 10 models, but then again there are savings to be made from 'economies of scale' which can offset that to a degree.

 

 

Indeed - but simply trotting out 'they charge what they think people will pay' line does nothing to silence the 'wah, wah too expensive' brigade. Its also a bit of an insult to the intelligence and as we know from life generally, leaving falsehoods floating around on social media never leads to a good result. 

 

 

It is a not uncommon business practise for a new entrant to the market to sell their products at a low price to establish themselves. Having done that and established a reputation - hopefully a good one - they are then in a position to match the other producers pricing. Of course, undercutting your competitors is always the first sales tactic that some retailers adopt.

 

No doubt both Hornby and Bachmann carry large overheads for a variety of reasons. They have also probably seen their market share eroded by the commissioner/ manufacturers, who originally established their businesses retailing Hornby and Bachmann products. These more recent commissioners (Rails, Hattons, TMC,  etc.)  often have the advantage of  a unique product and can therefore control pricing more profitably. 

 

 

[brighamloft]

I’ve had no end of issues with my Precedent. Disappointed doesn’t even come close - it’s been ran in for hours, it’s had 3 different new DCC chips trialled including DCC concepts Zen with stay alive, it’s been on 3 different layouts with different controllers, it’s been ran in DC, I’ve tweaked CVs for days and yet it’s jerky at anything other than almost full power. Rails haven’t been helpful at all, just keep suggesting CV tweaks yet I have the same issue on DC. I’ve cleaned wheels and checked pick ups - I’m sure there’s some wiring loose or something but Rails won’t take it back. I’ll mention the cost in that I have a loco that’s really only fit for display so it’s not worth the price. I model LNWR on an exhibition layout so it would have been perfect. 
real shame and poor after sales too. 

EDIT: I was far too quick to judge Rails, they contacted me, offered a replacement and even arranged to meet me at the DCC Concepts stall at SECC to show how they have overcome the running issue, they were incredibly apologetic, very helpful and the issue was sorted. I am the proud owner of a beautiful loco that runs very well, I’m very happy! 

Edited August 4, 2022 by brighamloft
Updated

[Andy Hayter]

@phil-b259

I  see nothing wrong in comparing with Accurascale provided you realise the difference.

As pointed out they are trying to carve a position in the market.

More importantly perhaps is that they have a different business model and seem to be operating close to made to order and effectively selling off the boat - albeit to some trade sellers.  

Now that may be the way to go and for some recent models from other producers it is close to what has happened with essentially a sell out before the boat lands.  However if we think this is the way for all producers to go for all products, then I fear for a slow death of the hobby.

JIT was a mechanism for putting stock holding responsibility onto the supplier.  Selling off the boat puts the stock holding responsibility onto the model shops.  How many can live with that?   All the while it is one or two, relatively minor, producers who do that, most model shops will cope but if all producers do it for all stock......

 

And if main products are unavailable for stretches of time, that is a perfect situation to turn off potential newcomers. 

[McC]

While I understand your point we’ve done two runs of our HUO and PCA and PFA is on run three and annual runs are planned for major items like coaches and locomotives. We also deliver 100% of preorder quantities to our 130 strong and growing trade network as well as selling direct. We focus on doing larger runs with consistent availability but do sell out rapidly not because the runs are small or limited. Hope that helps clarify and perhaps discussion on pricing and business models could move to our forum where we’d be happy to engage in conversation 

Edited January 29, 2022 by McC

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, brighamloft said:

I’ve had no end of issues with my Precedent. Disappointed doesn’t even come close - it’s been ran in for hours, it’s had 3 different new DCC chips trialled including DCC concepts Zen with stay alive, it’s been on 3 different layouts with different controllers, it’s been ran in DC, I’ve tweaked CVs for days and yet it’s jerky at anything other than almost full power. Rails haven’t been helpful at all, just keep suggesting CV tweaks yet I have the same issue on DC. I’ve cleaned wheels and checked pick ups - I’m sure there’s some wiring loose or something but Rails won’t take it back. I’ll mention the cost in that I have a loco that’s really only fit for display so it’s not worth the price. I model LNWR on an exhibition layout so it would have been perfect. 
real shame and poor after sales too. 

It is disappointing that ROS have been uncooperative in sorting out what appears to be a sub-standard model. I suggest that you tell Rails that you intend returning the item as "not fit for purpose" and of "unmerchantable quality" for a replacement or a full refund of the purchase price and P&P costs. It is interesting that the Rails website doesn't make any claims regarding performance but do state it has a coreless motor, thereby implying it would run well.

 

 

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, brighamloft said:

I’ve had no end of issues with my Precedent. Disappointed doesn’t even come close - it’s been ran in for hours, it’s had 3 different new DCC chips trialled including DCC concepts Zen with stay alive, it’s been on 3 different layouts with different controllers, it’s been ran in DC, I’ve tweaked CVs for days and yet it’s jerky at anything other than almost full power. Rails haven’t been helpful at all, just keep suggesting CV tweaks yet I have the same issue on DC. I’ve cleaned wheels and checked pick ups - I’m sure there’s some wiring loose or something but Rails won’t take it back. I’ll mention the cost in that I have a loco that’s really only fit for display so it’s not worth the price. I model LNWR on an exhibition layout so it would have been perfect. 
real shame and poor after sales too. 

Ok, when was it bought?

Your rights are as follows 

0 - 30 days you can claim a full refund for goods that are of unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described. 

 

30 days - six months you must give the retailer one opportunity to repair or replace it before you can claim a refund

 

More here https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act-aKJYx8n5KiSl#how-long-do-you-have-to-return-a-faulty-product

 

 

It’s unusual for Rails to be difficult and I had two issues with their Terrier which were sorted well. We don’t know what your current exchanges with them have been so it’s difficult to tell but you are entitled to a repair if they have sold out of your model so if they cannot supply a replacement I would suggest they can repair it for you.